1. I'll start with the project update, and then present my proposals for broader work amongst all of us! On the Livingston/Maclea/Boggs project page you will see a complex group of families, not because (as in some clans) we have many "septs" but because our two main surnames have some mysteries attached. See http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/Discussion%20Maclea.htm The two main names are of course Livingston and MacLea, with lots of historical variants (and possible variants), based upon the leading theory that the origin of MacLea was Mac Dunnsleibhe (Mac Dunleavy). Livingston and MacLea probably have entirely seperate origins but our project works with both because in the 18th century especially, the clan MacLea used this surname on the understanding that it was the proper English surname for them. The result is that many Livingstons no longer know whether they have a highland MacLea origin or a lowland Livingston origin. Our only other surname is Boggs - said to have been taken up by a Livingston family in Ireland. Note that on an administrative note, the possibility of participants being in multiple projects has been very important for us. Many Boggs feel no link to the Livingstons, and so there is also a Boggs project. Some of the suspected variants of Mac Dunleavy are now felt to be intertwined due to flexible fistoric spelling, with other Scottish names especially Maclean, MacAuley and MacInley. The only people showing the NW Irish "cluster 19" haplotype (associated with the Ui Neill) are some Irish Dunleavys - data from the recent publication of Brian McEvoy, Daniel G. Bradley (Y-chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames, Human Genetics 2006). The MacLea leadership have the Scots "cluster 47" haplotype (as do several groups of our participants). It is not known whether Dr Livingstone had the same haplotype yet, though it is perhaps the leading theory, because we have no one with a proven paper trial. We also do not have any final confimation about the haplotype of the most politically powerful Livingston family from the lowlands, who were said to have descended from the founder of the West Lothian city of Livingston. A branch of this family settled in the still very Dutch colony of New York and have become an important political family in America, including one of the signers of the Declaration of independence. However, we suspect this aristocratic family, which seems to have settled in Scotland at the time of Malcolm Canmore, has an unusual G haplotype. We have an interesting case of a Livingstone family whose DNA is in the Scots cluster 47, but who also managed to trace their paper trail to Germany, where they become Liebensteins. The question of whether the Scots cluster has a continental branch is obviously particularly important to them. They feel that they may descend from Scots who moved to southern Germany and Switzerland. The story actually makes surprisingly good sense because they seem to originally come from Zurich, which is known to be a place where Scottish protestants. 2. Next, a call to arms... I'd like to address everyone on the subject of cluster 47 (Scots, Dalriada, Colla etc) and cluster 19 (NW Irish, Ui Neill etc). Both of these clusters are very large and very old. We must not content ourselves with counting how many we have in our project. Much more effective is to look for more recent and small clusters WITHIN these clusters, and in general. Because these are such common haplotypes, this means looking at a minimum of 37 markers and hopefully more. Examples which are NOT from these two clusters: 1. For my own Livingstone family, I have a seperate webpage, just about their cluster: http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/MacWho_results.htm 2. I intend to make another one for cluster 26 (for those who don't know, these cluster names comes from John MacEwan's analysis. See http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/p3analysis.htm and put it in your favourites). Cluster 26 is the clearest possible Dalriadic family: many in the Dal Riadic homeland around The Route, and a few in Scotland, all with Mac surnames. This was very difficult because they are so close to WAMH (extremely average) R1b, but searching for more markers we think we have found the key - the Kittler test which DNA Fingerprint does shows that the DYS385 markers are in reverse position for our MacLea compared to "normal R1b". We are working with others in the cluster to test the theory. 3. I was also interested to see Len Keane's haplotype, and how it clusters with other families from just the right area. See http://hometown.aol.com/dolmenx/myhomepage/index.html and http://www.ysearch.org/research_comparative.asp?uid=YF4GY&vallist=YF4GY%2C+S MRVQ%2C+HS66C%2C+3M5S2%2C+9DJ2R%2C+CD2C7%2C+DS57J 4. Many of us are aware of the Somerled haplotype, discovered by clan Donald, which is in turn a branch of the older Norse R1a cluster. I believe the clan Donald is seeing more patterns within the Scottish families with that Norse cluster (not all of whom descend from Somerled) which will become helpful. (Our clan has several Norse R1a types, and I will be watching these developments.) Such studies give results which connect people in the Middle Ages - just beyond the paper trails - rather than in the Iron Age. This is the most potentially productive place to work on both your personal genealogy and you anthropological interests in the ancients peoples we ALL descend from. (Beyond the Middle Ages, anyone of Irish or Scottish descent should pretty much all descend from the same people, just through different lines.) In order to try clustering WITHIN the Scots group, we will first have to get a big list of long haplotypes (AT LEAST 37 markers), and then work on it. And we already know that we probably need MORE than 37 markers, so start collecting them. DNA Fingerprint and Ethnoancestry can both supply more. I know several important Scots individuals are getting further testing at DNA Fingerprint already. For those clans with participants in the Regards Andrew Lancaster Livingston/MacLea/Boggs project -----Original Message----- From: Colin Ferguson [mailto:colinf@sierratel.com] Sent: Friday, 10 February 2006 9:36 PM To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Re: Time to hear from the Project Managers The BIG question is "are the R1bSTR19Irish or the R1bSTR47Scots FERGUSSON descended from Fergus, subking of Dalriada, who colonized a part of Scotland in 470 AD?" You may find us on the web at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~colin/Ferguson/DNA/