Yes, that is what we call daughtered out, when the only descendants are daughters. In that case, the title may pass to the daughter's husband or their eldest son. If there are no children or brothers, title could pass far afield to whomever is determined to be next of kin. There is also the possibility of the title being reassigned to an unrelated person as a reward. In those cases the YDNA of the chieftain changes to the new paternal line. Thus having the living Clan Chieftain's YDNA is less important than having YDNA from a documented male who descends paternally from the line you believe you descend from also. John Carr On Sep 2, 2006, at 7:50 PM, Win MacKenzie wrote: > Isn't it also true that some Clan Chiefs are NOT from the paternal > line? > If there was no male heir didn't a grandson (of a daughter) take the > name and > whatever title ? > Isn't that what took place with the Munros of Foulis ? > And MacKenzies (correct me if I'm wrong on this one.) > Win MacKenzie > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > THANK YOU to all the Scot DNA Volunteers! They give freely > of their time and effort to this Project and study. NO ONE > in this Project receives any financial or in-kind remuneration > for their work. Please be patient with them as they perform the work > necessary to analyze and report the findings of what has been > submitted to the Project by a multitude of sources. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >

Clan Gregor's chief (MacGregor of MacGregor) has tested. His haplotype may be seen on their website. The haplotype is the R1b Scots Modal, with a noteable difference at 385a (MacGregor=10, Scots Modal=11). The haplotype is very common within the clan, & appears commonly among the Stirling surname (sept of Clan Gregor) as well. It is an example of a success story for this approach. It is true that there is great diversity in all the clans, but it is also possible that many of the clans will indeed have a demonstrably visible patriarchal line. Considering Clan Gregor's history, the DNA testing is particularly important for them the results already in have proved the worth of the enterprise. As the databases grow, we *may* see such defintion appearing in many of the clan projects. Pat Tagert ----Original Message Follows---- From: John Carr <jcarrgensearch@earthlink.net> Reply-To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chiefs Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 20:29:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Received: from lists8.rootsweb.com ([66.43.27.27]) by bay0-mc1-f7.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2444); Sat, 2 Sep 2006 20:31:09 -0700 Received: (from slist@localhost)by lists8.rootsweb.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) id k833Toap001041;Sat, 2 Sep 2006 21:29:50 -0600 X-Message-Info: LsUYwwHHNt2RdABvIAKJYePgtQbek8XSBc129eF77Yk= Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 21:29:50 -0600 X-Original-Sender: jcarrgensearch@earthlink.net Sat Sep 2 21:29:50 2006 References: <200609021104.k82B4pKI005628@lists8.rootsweb.com> <44FA42EF.5090905@shaw.ca> Old-To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) X-Spam-Score: 1.01 (*) BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 on 192.168.65.34 Resent-Message-ID: <UJpiQD.A.0P.uwk-EB@lists8.rootsweb.com> Resent-From: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/1535 X-Loop: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SCOT-DNA-L-request@rootsweb.com Return-Path: SCOT-DNA-L-request@rootsweb.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2006 03:31:09.0492 (UTC) FILETIME=[65B90F40:01C6CF09] Yes, that is what we call daughtered out, when the only descendants are daughters. In that case, the title may pass to the daughter's husband or their eldest son. If there are no children or brothers, title could pass far afield to whomever is determined to be next of kin. There is also the possibility of the title being reassigned to an unrelated person as a reward. In those cases the YDNA of the chieftain changes to the new paternal line. Thus having the living Clan Chieftain's YDNA is less important than having YDNA from a documented male who descends paternally from the line you believe you descend from also. John Carr On Sep 2, 2006, at 7:50 PM, Win MacKenzie wrote: >Isn't it also true that some Clan Chiefs are NOT from the paternal line? >If there was no male heir didn't a grandson (of a daughter) take the name >and >whatever title ? >Isn't that what took place with the Munros of Foulis ? >And MacKenzies (correct me if I'm wrong on this one.) >Win MacKenzie > > >==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== >THANK YOU to all the Scot DNA Volunteers! They give freely >of their time and effort to this Project and study. NO ONE >in this Project receives any financial or in-kind remuneration >for their work. Please be patient with them as they perform the work >necessary to analyze and report the findings of what has been submitted to >the Project by a multitude of sources. > >============================== >Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the >last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: >http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== AOL users are advised to join the AOLers-Rootsweb list: http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/RootsWeb_Support/AOLers-RootsWeb.html ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx

There is also the institution of Tanistry which is still followed to some extent. See below from http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Tanistry TANISTRY (from Gaelic tana, lordship), a custom among various Celtic tribes, by which the king or chief of the clan was chosen from among the heads of the septs and elected by them in full assembly. He held office for life and was required by custom to be of full age, in possession of all his faculties and without any remarkable blemish of mind or body. At the same time, and subject to the same conditions, a tanist or next heir to the chieftaincy was elected, who if the king died or became disqualified, at once became king. Usually the king's son became tanist, but not because the system of primogeniture was in any way recognized; indeed, the only principle adopted was that the dignity of chieftainship should descend to the eldest and most worthy of the same blood. These epithets, as Hallam says, were not necessarily synonymous, but merely indicated that the preference given to seniority was to be controlled by a due regard to desert (Constit. Hist., vol. iii. c. xviii.). This. system of succession left the headship open to the ambitious, and was a frequent source of strife both in families and between the clans. Tanistry was abolished by a legal decision in the reign of James I. and the English land system substituted Note: the Encylopedia Brittanica notwithstanding, Adam in Clans, Septs etc. states that Tanistry is still a part of Scots heraldic and clan law. I know that in 1954, when Archibald Corrie Macnab was recognized as the 22nd chief of the clan, his wife renounced the Tanistry of Macleod, which she appears to have had by right of her mother who was Dame Flora MacLeod of MacLeod. (see The Clans, Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlans by Frank Adam) David Rorer > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carr [mailto:jcarrgensearch@earthlink.net] > Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:30 PM > To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chiefs > > Yes, that is what we call daughtered out, when the only descendants are > daughters. In that case, the title may pass to the daughter's husband > or their eldest son. If there are no children or brothers, title could > pass far afield to whomever is determined to be next of kin. There is > also the possibility of the title being reassigned to an unrelated > person as a reward. In those cases the YDNA of the chieftain changes > to the new paternal line. Thus having the living Clan Chieftain's YDNA > is less important than having YDNA from a documented male who descends > paternally from the line you believe you descend from also. > > John Carr > > On Sep 2, 2006, at 7:50 PM, Win MacKenzie wrote: > > > Isn't it also true that some Clan Chiefs are NOT from the paternal > > line? > > If there was no male heir didn't a grandson (of a daughter) take the > > name and > > whatever title ? > > Isn't that what took place with the Munros of Foulis ? > > And MacKenzies (correct me if I'm wrong on this one.) > > Win MacKenzie > > > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > > THANK YOU to all the Scot DNA Volunteers! They give freely > > of their time and effort to this Project and study. NO ONE > > in this Project receives any financial or in-kind remuneration > > for their work. Please be patient with them as they perform the work > > necessary to analyze and report the findings of what has been > > submitted to the Project by a multitude of sources. > > > > ============================== > > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > AOL users are advised to join the AOLers-Rootsweb list: > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/RootsWeb_Support/AOLers-RootsWeb.html > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx