Thanks Derek, very interesting, and I will look at the websites later when I have a bit more time. The clan does have a current view on the origin of the name, though there are enough skeptics. The holm part is relatively simple, similar to what you suggest, tho more with the idea of a landed area, low lying on or close to or surrounded by the water. The Chis part (first written spelling is John de Cheseholme del Rokeburgh) has been interpreted perhaps fancifully as pertaining to cheese in the older Anglo tongue, possibly Scandinavian. My knowledge of german and dutch suggests a possible linguist tie up here, not disimlar to the way you describe, with the hard "k" (Kaas, Kaese) The impression is given of fields lying close to the water which are basically good dairying fields, and the image fits well with the original homeland on Borthwick Water near Hawick. The possession of the lands, a sizeable estate, the Norman styling, and the marriage of John de Cheseholme to a lady from Bolton with a Norman name (Emma de Veterponte) adds a bit of gusto to the Norman origin theory, but the name itself does nothing to push a Norman claim. Pre 1254, clan tradition is that the ancestors arrived out of Tynedale, not too distant from Lindisfarne, and who knows where they came from prior to that. I cant make too many noises yet , as I am the first of the clan to test, and have no proven pedigree back to the original Chisholms, but if my DNA holds up to be typical for Chisholm, then it opens the door to all those possibilities you mentioned, plus a few others. Interestingly I had a close DNA match with a gentleman in America named Tyner, and that's either a complete coincidence, or there is a common ancestor in Northumberland in pre surname times. -----Original Message----- From: scot-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scot-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Derek Ham Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2006 12:03 a.m. To: scot-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] No news is bad news: Some new news,dont know if its good or bad or irrelevant. Robert I'm going to take a 'flight of fancy' and suggest an origin for your surname - Chisholm. Strange though it may seem, your Borders origin may be highly significant and possibly dates back to early Anglo-Saxon times. You might first want to look at my website (www.geocities.com/djham@btinternet.com) as background to my reasoning. I believe I have located the origin of the surnames Kidd and Beatty (possibly Aidan, Adda, Patrick, Colman,Cuthbert) as the Borders area. St Aidan of Lindisfarne sent out 4 of his monk-priest disciples (Adda, Betti, Cedd, Diuma) on a mission in 653AD to convert all England to Christianity, and with baptism came the naming of families (in the style of the Roman convention - true Romans abandoned Britain in 410AD, returning to their homeland, Celtic/European auxiliaries probably stayed in Britain). Many strange Borders haplotypes may originate from the Roman auxiliaries who stayed. If you break down the surname Chisholm into its principle parts Chis/holm we could well venture an interpretation that the meaning is Christ's/Island. See website http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm extract : holm [] m (-es/-as) wave, sea, ocean, water; (in prose, esp. in place names) island (esp. in a river or creek) Northumbria was THE centre of early Anglo-Saxon Britain both politically and religously, and Bamburgh was the capital. Lindisfarne represented the focus of Celtic monastic life, and the training of early monk-priests to convert England to Christianity (Ref. Venerable Bede). As shown by 'The Book of Kells', contemporary with the 'Lindisfarne Gospels', Chi-Rho symbology was strongly at the forefront in this era (viz. Emperor Constantine, St Patrick>Celtic Cross), and my belief is that the surname Cedd quickly evolved to Chide within Anglo-Saxon times, because of the alusion to Christ and Christian baptism. Only in Norman times did the surname/placename Kidd/Kidderminster evolve (letter 'K' rarely used in Old English). Hence Chi = first letter (ecclesiastical Roman/Greek) of Christ's name, pronounced with a hard 'K' sound - only after Norman conquest did Ch sound with a soft 'tch' sound (in OE, Cea was the 'tch' sound, as with Cedd's younger brother Ceadd, St Chad). If Lindisfarne = Christ's Island, a local family of the Borders area might well use that as a surname/family name. It would have been pronounced 'kysholm' in Anglo-Saxon Britain and 'tchisholm' in Norman Britain. Maybe they even originated on Lindisfarne itself, after the island had lost its use as a monastic site eg at the Viking raids? Regards Derek Ham ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Chisholm" <nikaudesign@clear.net.nz> To: <scot-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:13 AM Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] No news is bad news: Some new news, dont know if its good or bad or irrelevant. > Seeing as it is so quiet I will awaken you slightly with a small message. > I > have only just joined this group, and am seeking to get the Chisholm > surname > project group to become a project supported and promoted by the Clan > Chisholm Council. My result should add a bit more variety to the Scots > DNA, > as it is showing as a relative rarity in the British Isles. As yet we cant > tell if my result is indicative of the Clan, which is a Highland Clan but > with Border origins, and with unproven pre-Scottish history as being > Norman > out of Tynedale. My Haplogroup will be confirmed before Christmas but > marker results are following very closely the model for I1b1a (formerly > I1b2) as worked out by Ken Nordvedt. > > Robert Chisholm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: scot-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scot-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of David > Sent: Wednesday, 6 December 2006 1:08 p.m. > To: scot-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] No news is bad news > > > Jim, > > I have not receeived anything recently, as well. Just a quiet list. > > Dave > > >>I have not had any mail for a while have I dropped off the radar? >> >> James McPherson < lergiechonie@toucansurf.com > >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOT-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date: 5/12/2006 > 4:07 p.m. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOT-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOT-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.16/582 - Release Date: 11/12/2006 4:32 p.m.

Sounds like some good healthy debates there, Robert. The only thing I might add is that Tyneside was also a strong ecclesiastical centre (viz.Venerable Bede and many others), and it's likely that they also continued the baptismal naming tradition of the Lindisfarne monks - maybe that is the link to the Tyner surname;one family baptised 'Tyner', the other genetically-related family 'Chisholm'? It did say in the website definition of OE 'holm' that the placename connotation related to island (i.e. land surrounded by water - exactly as you say). I remember when I started my investigations I thought ideas for the origin of the Kidd surname were nuts; commonly thought as deriving from young goat affiliations or 'sellers of faggots'! If anything, it's more likely that a well known personality named Kidd became a seller of faggots. The best idea of the time was derivation from the OE personal name Cydda, hence Kedington (Norfolk) and Keddington (Lincolnshire) were translated as tun=farmstead, ing='people of' and Cydda=personal name, therefore 'farmstead of the people of Cydda'. My translation is 'farmstead of the people of Cedd' - it's known that many homesteads voluntarily took on the ecclesiastical label of a ?chapel in order to escape secular duties (eg tax payments), and they continued in that pretense into Chads time (Cedd's younger brother). That's why some placenames may be spelt 'Ce...' but pronounced 'tch' at the time of the Domesday Book because of the Cedd/Ceadd ambiguity eg one placename spelling Cedde (1066; first pronounced 'Kedd' then later 'tchedd' in Anglo-Saxon times, as an ecclesiastical scam by people of the settlement) became Cheadle (continued pronunciation 'tcheadle' by Normans through to present day). Robert Chisholm <nikaudesign@clear.net.nz> wrote: Thanks Derek, very interesting, and I will look at the websites later when I have a bit more time. The clan does have a current view on the origin of the name, though there are enough skeptics. The holm part is relatively simple, similar to what you suggest, tho more with the idea of a landed area, low lying on or close to or surrounded by the water. The Chis part (first written spelling is John de Cheseholme del Rokeburgh) has been interpreted perhaps fancifully as pertaining to cheese in the older Anglo tongue, possibly Scandinavian. My knowledge of german and dutch suggests a possible linguist tie up here, not disimlar to the way you describe, with the hard "k" (Kaas, Kaese) The impression is given of fields lying close to the water which are basically good dairying fields, and the image fits well with the original homeland on Borthwick Water near Hawick. The possession of the lands, a sizeable estate, the Norman styling, and the marriage of John de Cheseholme to a lady from Bolton with a Norman name (Emma de Veterponte) adds a bit of gusto to the Norman origin theory, but the name itself does nothing to push a Norman claim. Pre 1254, clan tradition is that the ancestors arrived out of Tynedale, not too distant from Lindisfarne, and who knows where they came from prior to that. I cant make too many noises yet , as I am the first of the clan to test, and have no proven pedigree back to the original Chisholms, but if my DNA holds up to be typical for Chisholm, then it opens the door to all those possibilities you mentioned, plus a few others. Interestingly I had a close DNA match with a gentleman in America named Tyner, and that's either a complete coincidence, or there is a common ancestor in Northumberland in pre surname times. -----Original Message----- From: scot-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scot-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Derek Ham Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2006 12:03 a.m. To: scot-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] No news is bad news: Some new news,dont know if its good or bad or irrelevant. Robert I'm going to take a 'flight of fancy' and suggest an origin for your surname - Chisholm. Strange though it may seem, your Borders origin may be highly significant and possibly dates back to early Anglo-Saxon times. You might first want to look at my website (www.geocities.com/djham@btinternet.com) as background to my reasoning. I believe I have located the origin of the surnames Kidd and Beatty (possibly Aidan, Adda, Patrick, Colman,Cuthbert) as the Borders area. St Aidan of Lindisfarne sent out 4 of his monk-priest disciples (Adda, Betti, Cedd, Diuma) on a mission in 653AD to convert all England to Christianity, and with baptism came the naming of families (in the style of the Roman convention - true Romans abandoned Britain in 410AD, returning to their homeland, Celtic/European auxiliaries probably stayed in Britain). Many strange Borders haplotypes may originate from the Roman auxiliaries who stayed. If you break down the surname Chisholm into its principle parts Chis/holm we could well venture an interpretation that the meaning is Christ's/Island. See website http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm extract : holm [] m (-es/-as) wave, sea, ocean, water; (in prose, esp. in place names) island (esp. in a river or creek) Northumbria was THE centre of early Anglo-Saxon Britain both politically and religously, and Bamburgh was the capital. Lindisfarne represented the focus of Celtic monastic life, and the training of early monk-priests to convert England to Christianity (Ref. Venerable Bede). As shown by 'The Book of Kells', contemporary with the 'Lindisfarne Gospels', Chi-Rho symbology was strongly at the forefront in this era (viz. Emperor Constantine, St Patrick>Celtic Cross), and my belief is that the surname Cedd quickly evolved to Chide within Anglo-Saxon times, because of the alusion to Christ and Christian baptism. Only in Norman times did the surname/placename Kidd/Kidderminster evolve (letter 'K' rarely used in Old English). Hence Chi = first letter (ecclesiastical Roman/Greek) of Christ's name, pronounced with a hard 'K' sound - only after Norman conquest did Ch sound with a soft 'tch' sound (in OE, Cea was the 'tch' sound, as with Cedd's younger brother Ceadd, St Chad). If Lindisfarne = Christ's Island, a local family of the Borders area might well use that as a surname/family name. It would have been pronounced 'kysholm' in Anglo-Saxon Britain and 'tchisholm' in Norman Britain. Maybe they even originated on Lindisfarne itself, after the island had lost its use as a monastic site eg at the Viking raids? Regards Derek Ham ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Chisholm" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:13 AM Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] No news is bad news: Some new news, dont know if its good or bad or irrelevant. > Seeing as it is so quiet I will awaken you slightly with a small message. > I > have only just joined this group, and am seeking to get the Chisholm > surname > project group to become a project supported and promoted by the Clan > Chisholm Council. My result should add a bit more variety to the Scots > DNA, > as it is showing as a relative rarity in the British Isles. As yet we cant > tell if my result is indicative of the Clan, which is a Highland Clan but > with Border origins, and with unproven pre-Scottish history as being > Norman > out of Tynedale. My Haplogroup will be confirmed before Christmas but > marker results are following very closely the model for I1b1a (formerly > I1b2) as worked out by Ken Nordvedt. > > Robert Chisholm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: scot-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scot-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of David > Sent: Wednesday, 6 December 2006 1:08 p.m. > To: scot-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] No news is bad news > > > Jim, > > I have not receeived anything recently, as well. Just a quiet list. > > Dave > > >>I have not had any mail for a while have I dropped off the radar? >> >> James McPherson < lergiechonie@toucansurf.com > >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOT-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date: 5/12/2006 > 4:07 p.m. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOT-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOT-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.16/582 - Release Date: 11/12/2006 4:32 p.m. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOT-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I will file away all this theory Derek, await the right opportunity to bring it out. One thing which really hurts your theory is that the name did not appear, in written form, until 1254, and that was in an ecclesiastical document. If there was some Celtic-Anglo ecclesiastical derivative of the name prior to this time, I am sure it would have popped up somewhere. As it stands, whatever the ethno-ancestry of the founder of the Chisholm clan, it still seems most likely that he was a person well integrated into Norman society, most likely in Northumbria, and was invited over the Cheviot Hills by the Scottish King, and granted land in return for services rendered, or services to be rendered. Ie give those Anglo-Scots and Briton remnants a good dose of organized feudalism. Hence the likely origin of his name taken after his lands in Roxburgh. -----Original Message----- From: scot-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scot-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of DEREK HAM Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2006 2:19 p.m. To: scot-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] No news is bad news: Some new news,dont know if its good or bad or irrelevant. Sounds like some good healthy debates there, Robert. The only thing I might add is that Tyneside was also a strong ecclesiastical centre (viz.Venerable Bede and many others), and it's likely that they also continued the baptismal naming tradition of the Lindisfarne monks - maybe that is the link to the Tyner surname;one family baptised 'Tyner', the other genetically-related family 'Chisholm'? It did say in the website definition of OE 'holm' that the placename connotation related to island (i.e. land surrounded by water - exactly as you say). I remember when I started my investigations I thought ideas for the origin of the Kidd surname were nuts; commonly thought as deriving from young goat affiliations or 'sellers of faggots'! If anything, it's more likely that a well known personality named Kidd became a seller of faggots. The best idea of the time was derivation from the OE personal name Cydda, hence Kedington (Norfolk) and Keddington (Lincolnshire) were translated as tun=farmstead, ing='people of' and Cydda=personal name, therefore 'farmstead of the people of Cydda'. My translation is 'farmstead of the people of Cedd' - it's known that many homesteads voluntarily took on the ecclesiastical label of a ?chapel in order to escape secular duties (eg tax payments), and they continued in that pretense into Chads time (Cedd's younger brother). That's why some placenames may be spelt 'Ce...' but pronounced 'tch' at the time of the Domesday Book because of the Cedd/Ceadd ambiguity eg one placename spelling Cedde (1066; first pronounced 'Kedd' then later 'tchedd' in Anglo-Saxon times, Ah ha, maybe that where the cheddar came from, and the cheese in Cheseholmas an ecclesiastical scam by people of the settlement) became Cheadle (continued pronunciation 'tcheadle' by Normans through to present day).