The Declaration of Arbroath was a political document and should not be taken as serious history. For those interested in the real story of early Scottish history I recommend "Scotland, the Story of a Nation" by Magnus Magnusson Then there is also "Kings and Kingship in Early Scotland" by Marjorie O. Anderson which goes into depth in the various king-lists that are basically the only written documents that tell of the Scots movement from Ireland to modern day Scotland. David Rorer > -----Original Message----- > From: FLFeff@aol.com [mailto:FLFeff@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:47 AM > To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] Finley > > > In a message dated 5/28/2006 9:01:35 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > nelda_percival@hotmail.com writes: > > Is Finley the same as Finlay? > > > Hello Nelda, > The short answer is "yes" - there are many variations of spelling the > FINLEY surname. > Finl(a)y means "Fair hero" (Scots. Gaelic); > > (Source: _http://clanhuston.com/name/namee-h.htm_ > (http://clanhuston.com/name/namee-h.htm) Surname Meanings: > Findlay is a variation of the Scottish patronymic name Finlay, derived from > the given name Fionnlagh, which is comprised of Gaelic elements fionn = > white, fair + laoch = warrior, hero. Other variations are Findley, Finley, > Findlow, Finlow . Patronymic variations are Finlayson, Finlaison, Finlason . > > Years ago while reading a magazine in a doctor's office I came across > the following: > (Source: page 22 of Smithsonian Magazine - May 2000 issue, Letters to the > Editor - written by Henry Kennedy of Jalisco, Mexico > "At one time, the Scots considered themselves to be descendants of the > Scythians. Following the victory of Robert I the Bruce over the English at > Bannockhurn in 1314, the Scottish Parliament wrote the Declaration of > Arbroath. In > order to establish their right, in the eyes of the Vatican, to national > freedom from the English, the nobles sent the declaration to Pope John XXII > at > Avignon, France, in 1320. Based on information from "the chronicles and > books > of the ancients," the nobles purported that the Scots "journeyed from > Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules" and > settled in Spain. From there they migrated to Scotland, 1,200 years "after > the > people of Israel crossed the Red Sea." > > I find the above interesting, and if anyone can add to or offer > corrections, please do. We know that our paternal FINLEY lineage came from > Ireland > to Scotland....then back to Ireland in 1600's, then to America in 1720. > > Warmly, > Linda > > > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > THANK YOU to all the Scot DNA Volunteers! They give freely > of their time and effort to this Project and study. NO ONE > in this Project receives any financial or in-kind remuneration > for their work. Please be patient with them as they perform the work > necessary to analyze and report the findings of what has been > submitted to the Project by a multitude of sources. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C684CA.2B8207C0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry Bob: My hand was quicker than my brain. I have attached the file above. Stuart ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob MacLean" <bobmacleanuk@yahobobmacleanuk@yahooo.co.uk> To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 2:42 AM Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] Beatty, Scotland > The further back you go the more basic the records become but Scotland's > people is a good place to start. > http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ > > Also the Scottish Association of Family History Societies > http://www.safhs.org.uk/ > > Good luck! > > Bob MacLean > West Sussex, UK > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nelda Percival" <nelda_percival@hotmail.com> > To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:09 PM > Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Beatty, Scotland > > >> Hi Everybody, >> I was wondering if anyone on this great group can teel about researching > in >> Scotland.. >> I have my (bloodline) Beattys. >> >> >> 1. John Beatty was born 1587 in Scotland. He married Margaret Thompson > 1619 >> in Scotland. >> >> Children of John Beatty and Margaret Thompson: >> i. 2. James Beatty was born 1620. >> ii. 3. John Beatty was born 1621 in Ayrshire, Scotland. >> iii. 4. Henry Beatty was born 1623. >> iv. 5. Patrick Beatty was born 1625. >> >> Notes on John Beatty They lived in the Scottish lowlands in the >> Dalbeattie >> area >> the next two generations comes from Larry Cornwell >> contact at: LaCornwell@@@aol.com >> BEATTY >> Introduction >> According to the biography of the Honorable John P. Beatty of Jasper > County, >> Iowa, published in the Portrait and Biographical Record of Jasper, > Marshall, >> and Grundy Counties, Iowa in 1894, "The Beatty family is of Scotch > ancestry, >> and was prominently connected with the Presbyterian Church in Scotland > prior >> to the religious revolution, but at that time they left the country and >> settled in the North of Ireland." The first two generations, below, are >> undocumented and unproven. >> ~~~~~~~~ >> John and Jane existed as individuals, but the proof that they were the >> parents of John and James has not been discovered. They may have been the >> parents of James and John, identified below. >> According to research of Marlene K. Smith, "After the battle of Boyne in >> 1690, John and his two sons, John and James, left Scotland along with a >> large influx of Scottish families for the northern counties of Ireland." >> (Note..First time I have heard that John Beatty, wife Jane Ross, father >> of >> John and James moved to Ireland with his sons...nlp) >> ~~~~~~~~ >> >> 2nd Generation (Children) >> >> 2. James Beatty (John1) was born 1620. >> 3. John Beatty (John1) was born 1621 in Ayrshire, Scotland. He married > Jane >> Ross About 1664 in Scotland. She was born in Scotland . >> Other events in the life of John Beatty >> Fact 1 : BP2000 - L- 5 >> Fact 2 : source: Engle in Egle as source >> >> Children of John Beatty and Jane Ross: >> i. 6. John Beatty was born About 1665 in Ayrshire Scotland and died 1729 > in >> lived in County Antrim,Ireland. >> ii. 7. James Beatty was born About 1670 in Ayrshire, Scotland and died > 1745 >> in Hillsborough-Ballykeel-Ednagonnel, Co Down, IRE. >> >> Notes on John Beatty >> FA2: Place: BEATTY PROJECT 2000--LINEAGE #5 source: Egal Book; Copied > from >> a message from Helen, dated 27 Dec 03 >> she can be contacted at hmackain at aol.com >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> from Genealogical Record of the families of Beatty, Egle, Muller, Murray >> Orth and Thomas by William Henry Egle, MD MA dated 1886. >> Harrisburg: Hart Printer and Binder, 1886 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Carol Haskins provided part of this record she can be contacted at >> lorac 0903 at yahoo.com delete spaces and use symbol instead of word at.. >> >> Notes >> _FA2: Place: BEATTY PROJECT 2000--LINEAGE #5 >> >> 4. Henry Beatty (John1) was born 1623. >> 5. Patrick Beatty (John1) was born 1625. >> >> Question, how can I reasearch these people. >> >> Nelda >> >> Nelda's websites - >> http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ >> Gilpin DNA Project member >> >> >> >> ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== >> DNA Results are also being posted on the web site. >> Email to dnaclans@brigadoon.net if you want to join the >> web site. For privacy reasons, this is a closed web site. >> Want to join the Project? Visit: > http://www.ftdna.com/surname_det.asp?group=Scottish-Clans&projecttype=G >> >> ============================== >> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the >> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >> > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > All posts to this list are archived and cannot be edited from: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/SCOT-DNA/ > Please bear this in mind if you are considering posting > anything of a sensitive nature re your personal DNA. > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C684CA.2B8207C0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; name="BEATTIE MEMORIAL INSCRIPTIONS.txt"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="BEATTIE MEMORIAL INSCRIPTIONS.txt" BEATTIE/BEATTY/BEATY MEMORIAL INSCRIPTIONS =96=20 MIDDLEBIE PARISH CARRUTHERS BURIAL GROUND BEATTIE MEMORIAL INSCRIPTIONS # 12 - Andrew Beattie in Springfield who died 5th September `1797 age 63 = years=20 also Jean=20 Johnston his spouse who died 16th February 1821 age 81 years also = William Andrew=20 and Simon=20 Beattie their sons who died abroad. # 14 - Here lyes the body of Margaret Bryden spouse to John Beattie in = Conhes=20 who died 13th=20 August 1743 age 29 years. (coat of arms) # 15 - Here lyes Andrew Beaty in Blackcroft who died August 1759 of age = 80 years=20 also Shibela Irving his spouse who died in June 1731 of age 48 years = also=20 William Beattie in Lockmaben who died 22nd November 1797 of age 80 years = also=20 Ann Thomson his spouse who died August 14th 1787 of age 57 years also = their son=20 Hames Beaty who died May 25th 1777 of age 25 years also Ann Beaty their = daughter=20 who died young also Margaret Beaty their daughter who died young. # 26 - William Tait who died in Scotsbridge February 2nd 1799 age 82 = years also=20 Jean Armstrong his spouse who died 3rd March 1793 age 60 years also = Margaret=20 Tait who died June 2nd 1794 age 20 years also William Tait who died at = Grainhall July 1st 1828 age 61 years and Hannah Beattie his wife who = died at=20 Craighouse 9th February 1848 age 81 years. # 76 - Agnes Beattie spouse to William Jardine in Craigs who died 6th = May 1795=20 age 41 years also William his son who died 1st May 1795 age 3 years also = Agnes=20 his daughter who died 1st December 1797 age 16 years also Robert his son = who=20 died 2nd October 1801 age 21 years lying in Applegirth. # 130 - Thomas and William Bell, sons to George Bell in Grainhall. = Thomas died=20 23rd March 1751 age 11 years William died 29th November 1750 age 3 years = also=20 John Bell who died 19th March 1780 age 34 years also Helen Beattie his = spouse=20 who died 3rd October 1815 age 63 years. (coat of arms) PENNERSAUGHS BURIAL GROUND # 167 - John Beattie who died in Eaglesfield 12th January 1847 age 76 = years.=20 (post 1855 inscriptions) # 170 - Isabella Holliday wife of William Beattie in Grainhall who died = 6th June=20 1846 age 73 years. # 258 - John Steele who died in Stirkpool 1st July 1821 age 59 years = also Mary=20 Beattie spouse to George Steele in Creca who died 1st February 1836 age = 36 years=20 also Jane their daughter who died 29th August 1833 age 2 months (Post = 1855=20 Inscriptions) MIDDLEBIE CHURCH BURIAL GROUNDS # 229 - Here lyes the body of Walter Bell son of William Bell of Hots = who=20 departed this life 1770 age 10 years and the said William Bell who died = at=20 Stoneybeck March 22nd 1791 age 74 years also Janet Beattie his spouse = who died=20 30th March 1802 in Carterton aged 76 years also Jean Hope spouse to = above=20 William Bell who died at Blackwoodridge 12th September 1821 age 63 years = also=20 William Bell their son who died at Scalebridge 2nd January 1818 age 14 = years=20 also John Bell-------------who died at Carterton 26th November 1844 age = 90 years=20 also Mary daughter of Robert Egar who died at Halesyke 30th December = 1846 age 14=20 years. # 276 - Stone built in to West Wall of Albie Aisle also plaque built = above the=20 door lintel of the aisle on the south outer wall. Access to this aisle = was=20 through the courtesy of the Misses Carlyle of Templehill, Waterbeck. Here lyes the body of William Bell of Albie who died 15th April 1700 age = 48=20 years also Mary Bell his daughter, she died 4th November 1703 age 6 = years also=20 Janet Beatie his spouse, she died 25th December 1715 age 56 years also = Frances=20 Bell son of William Bell in Satur he died July 1717 aged 9 days also = William=20 Bell of Satur, he died 3rd June 1769 aged 90 years. Jean Bell his spouse = she=20 died 6th March 1754 aged 72 years. BEATTY MEMORIAL INSCRIPTIONS CARRUTHERS BURIAL GROUND # 11 - Here lyes William Beatty son to James Beatty in Conhes (sic) who = dyed=20 (sic) December 24th 1738 of age 21 years. (coat of arms) # 16 - Here lies Simon Beatty in Conhes who died June 25th 1747 of age = 56 years=20 also Janet Scot his spouse she died 25th November 1751 of age 49 years = also Mar=20 Beatty daughter who died 4th August 1750 age 16 years. Here lies the = body of=20 Hannah Armstrong spouse to William Beatty tenant in Beck, she died ye = 30th March=20 1770 of age 49 years also Walter Beatty their son, who died March 23rd = 1782 age=20 19 years also John Beaty son to William Beaty late tenant in Beck who = died=20 December 4th,? age 29. In memory of Margaret, daughter of Walter Beaty, = tenant=20 in Beck who died November 11th 1825 age 10 months also Amelia Anne his = daughter=20 who died March 1st 1835 age 16 years. # 114b - Here lyes Agnes Little spouse to William Beatty in Conhes who = died ye 8=20 February 1749 of age 77 years also here lyes William Beatty in Conhes = who died=20 February 27th 1753 of age 91 years also here lyes William Beatty lat = tenant in=20 Beckfoot who died 2nd Feby. 1805 age 84 years also Christian Armstrong = his=20 spouse who died 24th March 1830 age 92 years also Walter Banantin Beatty = who=20 died 29th February 1838 age 54 years.(coat of arms) PENNERSAUGHS BURIAL GROUND # 171 - Here lyes William Bell in Burrance who departed this life = January 11th=20 1728 age 83 years also Margaret Beatty his spouse who departed this life = December 18th 1690 of age 31 years. (coat of arms) MIDDLEBIE CHURCH BURIAL GROUND # 233 - Here lyes Walter Bell in ---- who departed this life February 11 = ----.=20 Here lyes John Bell who died in Ragawart (Ragawhate?) November 16th 1740 = age 70=20 years also Blanch Bell his daughter , spouse to John Armstrong of Craigs = who=20 died April 1772 age 56 years and said John Armstrong who died November = 15th 1784=20 age --- and Walter his son who died young and two sons and two daughters = of his=20 son John Armstrong of Craigs who died young. Here lyes Jean Beatty = spouse to=20 John Bell in Ragawort who departed this life 1722? Age 55 years. BEATY MEMORIAL INSCRIPTIONS CARRUTHERS BURIAL GROUND=20 # 13 - William Beaty of Chaplehill who died May 29th 1802 age 65 years = also John=20 Beaty his son who died at Chaplehill January 13th 1808 age 25 years also = Helen=20 Little relict of William Beaty of Chaplehill who died 20th August 1815 = age 74=20 years also Wilhemina Beaty daughter of William Beaty and Christian = Armstrong in=20 Becks who died 31st August 1835 age 54 years. # 15 - Here lyes Andrew Beaty in Blackcroft who died August 1759 of age = 80 years=20 also Shibela Irving his spouse who died in June 1731 of age 48 years = also=20 William Beattie in Lockmaben who died 22nd November 1797 of age 80 = years also=20 Ann Thomson his spouse who died August 14th 1787 of age 57 years also = their son=20 Hames Beaty who died MaY 26TH 1777 OF AGE 25 years also Ann Beaty their = daughter=20 who died young also Margaret Beaty their daughter who died young. PENNERSAUGHS BURIAL GROUND # 181 Richard Beaty son to William Beaty in Dykstown he died 6th October = 1734=20 age 36 years also William Beaty his son he died November 15th 1752 age = 24 years. # 203 - William Johnstone who died in Eaglesfield 21st April 1813 age 58 = years=20 also Hellen Irving his spouse who died at Firparknook 25th December 1795 = age 42=20 years also William Johnstone their son who died 16th February 1806 age = 18 years.=20 NOTE - IN SOME INSTANCES THE SPELLING VARIES SO IT IS BEST TO CHECK ALL=20 SPELLINGS OF THE NAME ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C684CA.2B8207C0--

Hi Bob: I have the Monument Inscriptions for Middlebie Parish in Dumfriesshire and there are a number of Beattie buried there. I have attached the file above. Good luck Stuart Livingstone Brown Cornwallis Park Nova Scotia, Canada Researching Brown, Donabies, Houstons Livingstones, Mockfords and Maitlands ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob MacLean" <bobmacleanuk@yahoo.co.uk> To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 2:42 AM Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] Beatty, Scotland > The further back you go the more basic the records become but Scotland's > people is a good place to start. > http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ > > Also the Scottish Association of Family History Societies > http://www.safhs.org.uk/ > > Good luck! > > Bob MacLean > West Sussex, UK > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nelda Percival" <nelda_percival@hotmail.com> > To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:09 PM > Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Beatty, Scotland > > >> Hi Everybody, >> I was wondering if anyone on this great group can teel about researching > in >> Scotland.. >> I have my (bloodline) Beattys. >> >> >> 1. John Beatty was born 1587 in Scotland. He married Margaret Thompson > 1619 >> in Scotland. >> >> Children of John Beatty and Margaret Thompson: >> i. 2. James Beatty was born 1620. >> ii. 3. John Beatty was born 1621 in Ayrshire, Scotland. >> iii. 4. Henry Beatty was born 1623. >> iv. 5. Patrick Beatty was born 1625. >> >> Notes on John Beatty They lived in the Scottish lowlands in the >> Dalbeattie >> area >> the next two generations comes from Larry Cornwell >> contact at: LaCornwell@@@aol.com >> BEATTY >> Introduction >> According to the biography of the Honorable John P. Beatty of Jasper > County, >> Iowa, published in the Portrait and Biographical Record of Jasper, > Marshall, >> and Grundy Counties, Iowa in 1894, "The Beatty family is of Scotch > ancestry, >> and was prominently connected with the Presbyterian Church in Scotland > prior >> to the religious revolution, but at that time they left the country and >> settled in the North of Ireland." The first two generations, below, are >> undocumented and unproven. >> ~~~~~~~~ >> John and Jane existed as individuals, but the proof that they were the >> parents of John and James has not been discovered. They may have been the >> parents of James and John, identified below. >> According to research of Marlene K. Smith, "After the battle of Boyne in >> 1690, John and his two sons, John and James, left Scotland along with a >> large influx of Scottish families for the northern counties of Ireland." >> (Note..First time I have heard that John Beatty, wife Jane Ross, father >> of >> John and James moved to Ireland with his sons...nlp) >> ~~~~~~~~ >> >> 2nd Generation (Children) >> >> 2. James Beatty (John1) was born 1620. >> 3. John Beatty (John1) was born 1621 in Ayrshire, Scotland. He married > Jane >> Ross About 1664 in Scotland. She was born in Scotland . >> Other events in the life of John Beatty >> Fact 1 : BP2000 - L- 5 >> Fact 2 : source: Engle in Egle as source >> >> Children of John Beatty and Jane Ross: >> i. 6. John Beatty was born About 1665 in Ayrshire Scotland and died 1729 > in >> lived in County Antrim,Ireland. >> ii. 7. James Beatty was born About 1670 in Ayrshire, Scotland and died > 1745 >> in Hillsborough-Ballykeel-Ednagonnel, Co Down, IRE. >> >> Notes on John Beatty >> FA2: Place: BEATTY PROJECT 2000--LINEAGE #5 source: Egal Book; Copied > from >> a message from Helen, dated 27 Dec 03 >> she can be contacted at hmackain at aol.com >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> from Genealogical Record of the families of Beatty, Egle, Muller, Murray >> Orth and Thomas by William Henry Egle, MD MA dated 1886. >> Harrisburg: Hart Printer and Binder, 1886 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Carol Haskins provided part of this record she can be contacted at >> lorac 0903 at yahoo.com delete spaces and use symbol instead of word at.. >> >> Notes >> _FA2: Place: BEATTY PROJECT 2000--LINEAGE #5 >> >> 4. Henry Beatty (John1) was born 1623. >> 5. Patrick Beatty (John1) was born 1625. >> >> Question, how can I reasearch these people. >> >> Nelda >> >> Nelda's websites - >> http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ >> Gilpin DNA Project member >> >> >> >> ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== >> DNA Results are also being posted on the web site. >> Email to dnaclans@brigadoon.net if you want to join the >> web site. For privacy reasons, this is a closed web site. >> Want to join the Project? Visit: > http://www.ftdna.com/surname_det.asp?group=Scottish-Clans&projecttype=G >> >> ============================== >> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the >> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >> > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > All posts to this list are archived and cannot be edited from: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/SCOT-DNA/ > Please bear this in mind if you are considering posting > anything of a sensitive nature re your personal DNA. > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx

Hello Stuart, Thank you for the Beatty/Beattie info. May I( share it with other Beatties? Regards Nelda Nelda's websites - http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ Gilpin DNA Project member

The further back you go the more basic the records become but Scotland's people is a good place to start. http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ Also the Scottish Association of Family History Societies http://www.safhs.org.uk/ Good luck! Bob MacLean West Sussex, UK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nelda Percival" <nelda_percival@hotmail.com> To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:09 PM Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Beatty, Scotland > Hi Everybody, > I was wondering if anyone on this great group can teel about researching in > Scotland.. > I have my (bloodline) Beattys. > > > 1. John Beatty was born 1587 in Scotland. He married Margaret Thompson 1619 > in Scotland. > > Children of John Beatty and Margaret Thompson: > i. 2. James Beatty was born 1620. > ii. 3. John Beatty was born 1621 in Ayrshire, Scotland. > iii. 4. Henry Beatty was born 1623. > iv. 5. Patrick Beatty was born 1625. > > Notes on John Beatty They lived in the Scottish lowlands in the Dalbeattie > area > the next two generations comes from Larry Cornwell > contact at: LaCornwell@@@aol.com > BEATTY > Introduction > According to the biography of the Honorable John P. Beatty of Jasper County, > Iowa, published in the Portrait and Biographical Record of Jasper, Marshall, > and Grundy Counties, Iowa in 1894, "The Beatty family is of Scotch ancestry, > and was prominently connected with the Presbyterian Church in Scotland prior > to the religious revolution, but at that time they left the country and > settled in the North of Ireland." The first two generations, below, are > undocumented and unproven. > ~~~~~~~~ > John and Jane existed as individuals, but the proof that they were the > parents of John and James has not been discovered. They may have been the > parents of James and John, identified below. > According to research of Marlene K. Smith, "After the battle of Boyne in > 1690, John and his two sons, John and James, left Scotland along with a > large influx of Scottish families for the northern counties of Ireland." > (Note..First time I have heard that John Beatty, wife Jane Ross, father of > John and James moved to Ireland with his sons...nlp) > ~~~~~~~~ > > 2nd Generation (Children) > > 2. James Beatty (John1) was born 1620. > 3. John Beatty (John1) was born 1621 in Ayrshire, Scotland. He married Jane > Ross About 1664 in Scotland. She was born in Scotland . > Other events in the life of John Beatty > Fact 1 : BP2000 - L- 5 > Fact 2 : source: Engle in Egle as source > > Children of John Beatty and Jane Ross: > i. 6. John Beatty was born About 1665 in Ayrshire Scotland and died 1729 in > lived in County Antrim,Ireland. > ii. 7. James Beatty was born About 1670 in Ayrshire, Scotland and died 1745 > in Hillsborough-Ballykeel-Ednagonnel, Co Down, IRE. > > Notes on John Beatty > FA2: Place: BEATTY PROJECT 2000--LINEAGE #5 source: Egal Book; Copied from > a message from Helen, dated 27 Dec 03 > she can be contacted at hmackain at aol.com > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Genealogical Record of the families of Beatty, Egle, Muller, Murray > Orth and Thomas by William Henry Egle, MD MA dated 1886. > Harrisburg: Hart Printer and Binder, 1886 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Carol Haskins provided part of this record she can be contacted at > lorac 0903 at yahoo.com delete spaces and use symbol instead of word at.. > > Notes > _FA2: Place: BEATTY PROJECT 2000--LINEAGE #5 > > 4. Henry Beatty (John1) was born 1623. > 5. Patrick Beatty (John1) was born 1625. > > Question, how can I reasearch these people. > > Nelda > > Nelda's websites - > http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ > Gilpin DNA Project member > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > DNA Results are also being posted on the web site. > Email to dnaclans@brigadoon.net if you want to join the > web site. For privacy reasons, this is a closed web site. > Want to join the Project? Visit: http://www.ftdna.com/surname_det.asp?group=Scottish-Clans&projecttype=G > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >

Hi, Here is my second Scottish direct blood line. These records were extracted from paish records at familysearch.com website. Nelda 1st Generation 1. John Gilloch was born in Scotland?. He married Elspeth Scot July 11, 1687 in Dron, Perth Co., Scotland. She was born in Scotland? . Children of John Gilloch and Elspeth Scot: i. 2. John Gillock, Gilloch was born in Scotland?. ii. 3. Robert Gillock, Gilloch. iii. 4. Margrat Gillock, Gilloch. iv. 5. Elspeth Gillock, Gilloch. v. 6. Margrat Gillock, Gilloch. 2nd Generation (Children) 2. John Gillock, Gilloch (John1) was born in Scotland?. He married Margrat Walker July 7, 1706 in Dron, Perth Co., Scotland. She was born in Scotland? . Children of John Gillock, Gilloch and Margrat Walker: i. 7. John Gillock, Gilloch was born in Thought to be born in Scotland. 3. Robert Gillock, Gilloch (John1). 4. Margrat Gillock, Gilloch (John1). 5. Elspeth Gillock, Gilloch (John1). 6. Margrat Gillock, Gilloch (John1). 3rd Generation (Grandchildren) 7. John Gillock, Gilloch (John2, John1) was born in Thought to be born in Scotland. He married Sarah Brown 1727 in Dron, Perth Co., Scotland. She was born in Scotland? . Other events in the life of John Gillock, Gilloch Religion : LDS batch # C113542, 1710-1820, Source call # 1040353 Children of John Gillock, Gilloch and Sarah Brown: i. 8. Laurence Gillock was born About 1728 in Forteviot, Scotland and died April 1786 in Orange Co., VA, believed to be burried here.. ii. 9. Janet Gillock, Gilloch. iii. 10. Margaret Gillock, Gilloch. iv. 11. Isabel Gillock, Gilloch. v. 12. James Gillock, Gilloch. 4th Generation (Great-Grandchildren) 8. Laurence Gillock (John3, John2, John1) was born About 1728 in Forteviot, Scotland and died April 1786 in Orange Co., VA, believed to be burried here.. He married Elizabeth Jane or Jane Elizabeth Lindsay, Maiden Name Unk 1750 in Orange Co., VA. Other events in the life of Laurence Gillock Christening : July 21, 1728 in Forteviot, Perth Co., Scotland Occupation : Farmer / Realtor Other events in the life of Elizabeth Jane or Jane Elizabeth Lindsay, Maiden Name Unk Occupation : Her maiden name is unk for sure but we think it is Lindsay Children of Laurence Gillock and Elizabeth Jane or Jane Elizabeth Lindsay, Maiden Name Unk: i. 13. John (I) Gillock was born 1750 in Orange Co., VA and died May 28, 1783 in Woodstock, VA, will probated. ii. 14. Sally Gillock was born in Orange Co., VA. iii. 15. Samuel Lindsay Gillock was born About 1760 in Orange Co., VA and died After August 8, 1834 in Jessamine Co. KY. iv. 16. Thomas Gillock was born Before 1764 in Orange Co., Va. v. 17. Lawrence (II) Gillock was born About 1765 in Orange Co., VA and died in Barren Co., KY. vi. 18. James M. Gillock was born December 16, 1782 in Orange Co., VA and died March 8, 1842 in Barren Co., KY. vii. 19. Rueben S. Gillock was born 1783 in Orange Co., VA. 9. Janet Gillock, Gilloch (John3, John2, John1). 10. Margaret Gillock, Gilloch (John3, John2, John1). 11. Isabel Gillock, Gilloch (John3, John2, John1). 12. James Gillock, Gilloch (John3, John2, John1). Regards Nelda Nelda's websites - http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ Gilpin DNA Project member

Thank you Bob, I appricate the information. Regards Nelda Nelda's websites - http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ Gilpin DNA Project member

Don't forget Laura Gilpin, one of the most famous woman photographers in the U.S. 1891-1979. She was born near Colorado Springs to Frank and Emma Gilpin, and lived much of her life in New Mexico, where she was known for her landscape photographs, and photos of Pueblo and Navajo people. You can find out more by googling her. Sheila in Missouri

Hi Everybody, I was wondering if anyone on this great group can teel about researching in Scotland.. I have my (bloodline) Beattys. 1. John Beatty was born 1587 in Scotland. He married Margaret Thompson 1619 in Scotland. Children of John Beatty and Margaret Thompson: i. 2. James Beatty was born 1620. ii. 3. John Beatty was born 1621 in Ayrshire, Scotland. iii. 4. Henry Beatty was born 1623. iv. 5. Patrick Beatty was born 1625. Notes on John Beatty They lived in the Scottish lowlands in the Dalbeattie area the next two generations comes from Larry Cornwell contact at: LaCornwell@@@aol.com BEATTY Introduction According to the biography of the Honorable John P. Beatty of Jasper County, Iowa, published in the Portrait and Biographical Record of Jasper, Marshall, and Grundy Counties, Iowa in 1894, "The Beatty family is of Scotch ancestry, and was prominently connected with the Presbyterian Church in Scotland prior to the religious revolution, but at that time they left the country and settled in the North of Ireland." The first two generations, below, are undocumented and unproven. ~~~~~~~~ John and Jane existed as individuals, but the proof that they were the parents of John and James has not been discovered. They may have been the parents of James and John, identified below. According to research of Marlene K. Smith, "After the battle of Boyne in 1690, John and his two sons, John and James, left Scotland along with a large influx of Scottish families for the northern counties of Ireland." (Note..First time I have heard that John Beatty, wife Jane Ross, father of John and James moved to Ireland with his sons...nlp) ~~~~~~~~ 2nd Generation (Children) 2. James Beatty (John1) was born 1620. 3. John Beatty (John1) was born 1621 in Ayrshire, Scotland. He married Jane Ross About 1664 in Scotland. She was born in Scotland . Other events in the life of John Beatty Fact 1 : BP2000 - L- 5 Fact 2 : source: Engle in Egle as source Children of John Beatty and Jane Ross: i. 6. John Beatty was born About 1665 in Ayrshire Scotland and died 1729 in lived in County Antrim,Ireland. ii. 7. James Beatty was born About 1670 in Ayrshire, Scotland and died 1745 in Hillsborough-Ballykeel-Ednagonnel, Co Down, IRE. Notes on John Beatty FA2: Place: BEATTY PROJECT 2000--LINEAGE #5 source: Egal Book; Copied from a message from Helen, dated 27 Dec 03 she can be contacted at hmackain at aol.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Genealogical Record of the families of Beatty, Egle, Muller, Murray Orth and Thomas by William Henry Egle, MD MA dated 1886. Harrisburg: Hart Printer and Binder, 1886 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Carol Haskins provided part of this record she can be contacted at lorac 0903 at yahoo.com delete spaces and use symbol instead of word at.. Notes _FA2: Place: BEATTY PROJECT 2000--LINEAGE #5 4. Henry Beatty (John1) was born 1623. 5. Patrick Beatty (John1) was born 1625. Question, how can I reasearch these people. Nelda Nelda's websites - http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ Gilpin DNA Project member

Hi Linda, You sweet.. But I have the Gilpin name back to the 1200's Westmoreland England myself.. You should check out my Gilpin website the link is in my signature block Nelda Nelda's websites - http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ Gilpin DNA Project member

Hi Nelda, ....still thinking about your GILPIN surname (I'm addicted to genealogy even when it's not my line)... Just wanted to make sure you're aware that you have O distance genetic match to the following at ySearch: P333U, QSJR8, 3PUSK, 4X5SP, 8QBUW, DY2ZJ, M4ZSY Granted most are only results of 12 markers, but it reveals the surname possibilities of: Brousseau (France), Barlow (Virginia), Barlow (England), Dworsky (Lithuania), Hamrick (unknown), Harmon (Ohio). Finding misc. GILPIN references in my personal files: Source: USGenweb.com …Kansas, Lincoln County…..Sherman _http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/lincoln/lyden2.htm_ (http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/lincoln/lyden2.htm) Murder of John Lyden in 1875 Lincoln County News, Aug. 28, 1941 .... Murdered and Placed in Well On or about that day Lyden was murdered, shot in the face just below the eye, and wounded apparently by a knife in the left side between the hip bone and ribs, the wound extending into the abdominal cavity according to the testimony of Dr. R.F. Bryant, coroner, and Dr. James D. Gilpin, another Lincoln physician, who performed the post mortem together. Their testimony agreed that the wound in the face which ranged into the thorax, would have caused immediate death, while the other would not. There were minor wounds about the head made with a blunt intstrument. The doctors agreed that the wounds were inflicted while Lyden was lying down..... > Colonial Families of Philadelphia GenealogyLibrary.com Main Page > Page 830 > Evan Lewis married, March 9, 1815, Sidney Ann Gilpin, born at Wilmington, Delaware, February 28, 1795, died at 315 Marshall street, Philadelphia, March 23, 1882. She was a daughter of James Gilpin, of Wilmington (1767-1798), granddaughter of Vincent Gilpin (1732-1810), the prominent miller and shipper on the Brandywine near Wilmington, by his wife Abigail Woodward. (See Gilpin Family). The mother of Sidney (Gilpin) Lewis, was Sarah Littler, born at Wilmington, April 20, 1769, died at Germantown, From my TROSPER file: ............................... 4 William Matt Trosper b: December 1, 1865 in Knox Co., KY. d: 1952 in Louisville, KY ................................... +Elizabeth Anna Norvell b: November 8, 1869 in Knox Co. KY d: 1952 in Louisville, KY ........................................... 5 Mary B. Trosper ............................................... +Tim Gilpin ........................................... 5 Leander Trosper ............................................... +Susie B Hutchinson ........................................... 5 Virginia Trosper ............................................... +Frank Elliot ........................................... 5 Hiram Trosper ............................................... +Julia Elliot ........................................... 5 Emily Jane Trosper ........................................... 5 Spencer Trosper ............................................... +Rachael Hodge ........................................... 5 Julia Trosper ............................................... +Robert Elliot Scottish Septs, etc. Source: _http://www.users.mis.net/~chesnut/pages/scot.htm_ (http://www.users.mis.net/~chesnut/pages/scot.htm) Copyrighted © 1996 by Don Chesnut. Sorted by Surname within Clan or Family Name .... MACNAB Abbott, Dewar, Gilfillan, Abbotson, Abbottson, Macandeoir, Bain, Gilliland, MacClelland*, Clelland*, Gow, MacClure, Dewars on, Killie, MacGeorge, Dow, MacALpine, MacGowan, Gilland, MacClagan, MacNair. [*According to the Clan Cleland, they are not affiliated with this group, but are a group in their own right.] (not a lot of difference in the sound of Gilland, Gilliland, Gilfillan and Gilpin.....think accent...and MacAlpine is in that same group.) Then at FamilySearch.org - looking for oldest Gilpin I find _William Gilpin_ (http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=100109979485&lds=1&region=2&frompage=99) (http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/IGI/family_group_record.asp?familyid=9238506&indi_id=10 0109979485&lds=1&region=2&frompage=99) Marriage: About 1267 Strikland Ketell, , Westmorland, England to Agnes ____ b.c. About 1246 Of Strikland Ketell, , Westmorland, England I know these are just bits and pieces, but you never know where your next clue might come from. Good luck to you Warmly, Linda

In a message dated 5/28/2006 9:01:35 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, nelda_percival@hotmail.com writes: Is Finley the same as Finlay? Hello Nelda, The short answer is "yes" - there are many variations of spelling the FINLEY surname. Finl(a)y means “Fair hero” (Scots. Gaelic); (Source: _http://clanhuston.com/name/namee-h.htm_ (http://clanhuston.com/name/namee-h.htm) Surname Meanings: Findlay is a variation of the Scottish patronymic name Finlay, derived from the given name Fionnlagh, which is comprised of Gaelic elements fionn = white, fair + laoch = warrior, hero. Other variations are Findley, Finley, Findlow, Finlow . Patronymic variations are Finlayson, Finlaison, Finlason . Years ago while reading a magazine in a doctor's office I came across the following: (Source: page 22 of Smithsonian Magazine – May 2000 issue, Letters to the Editor – written by Henry Kennedy of Jalisco, Mexico “At one time, the Scots considered themselves to be descendants of the Scythians. Following the victory of Robert I the Bruce over the English at Bannockhurn in 1314, the Scottish Parliament wrote the Declaration of Arbroath. In order to establish their right, in the eyes of the Vatican, to national freedom from the English, the nobles sent the declaration to Pope John XXII at Avignon, France, in 1320. Based on information from “the chronicles and books of the ancients,” the nobles purported that the Scots “journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules” and settled in Spain. From there they migrated to Scotland, 1,200 years “after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea.” I find the above interesting, and if anyone can add to or offer corrections, please do. We know that our paternal FINLEY lineage came from Ireland to Scotland....then back to Ireland in 1600's, then to America in 1720. Warmly, Linda

Hi Nelda, Yes, I belong to four other DNA mailing lists. I know more about Y than mtDNA, but find it all fascinating. Thanks for your offer to share your collateral Finley's with me. Not necessary but I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I would like to help the guy whose looking for his Thomas FINDLEY b.c. 1795 N.C. father of Andrew Jackson Findley b. 1830. I'm sure he will connect to my long line of Finley's eventually. We have a genetic distance of 2 steps. I think that's great that your Gilpin ySearch P333U has DYS464 as 15,15,16,17. Helps to set you apart from the crowd. Good luck to you in finding the origin of your Gilpin surname. I hope you'll let me know if ever you learn they went back to Alpin father of Kenneth McAlpin I. also called KENNETH MACALPIN (d. c. 858, Forteviot, Scot.). King of Albany 841-849 united Albany (Scotland)(Picts & Scots) into one kingdom. ............ Warmly, Linda

I looked up the FTDNA projects and there is not one for McAlpine/Macalpine, but if you are that interested why don't you start one or alternatively why not join the scottish clans project, look it up on FTDNA under projects! Jimmy McPherson Ps I don't have any connection so far as I know to McAlpine or variants. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nelda Percival" <nelda_percival@hotmail.com> To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 9:29 PM Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Clan McAlpin / MacAlpine question > Hi, > I am trying to find a McAlpin, McAlpine/ MacAlpine Mac Alpin to compare > some Gilpins to. Do you actually have any in your project and if so are > they listed with y-search? > > I have been in contact with the Clan MacAlpine and they suggested that > some Gilpins may in actuallity be name changes from MacAlpine.. > > Thanks > Nelda > > Nelda's websites - > http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ > Gilpin DNA Project member > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > Per agreement with Rootsweb, there can be no marketing messsages > for any laboratory. No specific costs can be stated on list. > These questions can be responded to off list. > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date: 26/05/2006 > >

Linda, Is Finley the same as Finlay? I Have Beattys and Finlays marrying in Ireland. NOw there is one of My Scots lineages.. Beattys and Gillocks, but never mind that.. No one to test on the Gillocks and Beattys are already tested. Husband Robert Finlay Born 1746 Ireland Married 1772 Ballykeel-Ednagonnel, Co Down,IRE Died August 15, 1803 Ballykeel-Ednagonnel, Co Down,IRE Buried Other Spouse(s) Parents Wife Agnes Beatty Born 1751 Ballykeel-Ednagonnel, Co Down,IRE Died 1844 Buried Other Spouse(s) Parents William Beatty and Mary McKee Children 1 F Elizabeth Finlay Born 1774 Co Down -Ireland Spouse William Haliday Married Died USA 2 M William Finlay Born 1776 Ballykeel-Ednagonnel,Co Down , IRE Spouse Mary McKee Married Died 1856 Ballykeel-Ednagonnel,Co Down , IRE 3 M David Finlay Born 1776 Ballykeel-Ednagonnel,Co Down , IRE Spouse Agnes McKee Married 1812 Died 1853 4 M James Finlay Born 1780 Co Down - Ballykeel-Ednagonnel, IRE Spouse Married Died 1872 USA 5 M Robert Finlay Born 1784 Ballykeel-Ednagonnel,Co Down , IRE Spouse Married Died 1811 Ireland 6 M George Finlay Born 1786 Co Down, Ireland Spouse Mary Frazer Married Died 1854 Strangford, Co Down, Ireland 7 M Mathew Finlay Born 1790 Ballykeel-Ednagonnel,Co Down , IRE Spouse Married Died 1845 Ballykeel-Ednagonnel,Co Down , IRE 8 M Wilson Finlay Born 1790 Ballykeel-Ednagonnel,Co Down , IRE Spouse Mary Greer Married 1842 Died 1856 9 F Agnes Finlay Born 1795 Ballykeel-Ednagonnel,Co Down , IRE Spouse David McKee Married 1815 Died 1872 10 F Jane Finlay Born 1752 Spouse Married Died 1777 I also have Findley in USA, PA and NJ. Nelda's websites - http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ Gilpin DNA Project member

Hi Linda, I'm sorry I misunderstood. I thought you wanted me to compare the two. I haven't done any research into the Scots or Irish lines yet. So have no understanding of the lineages. They confuse me... LOL totally! YOUR: My thinking was perhaps you might notice and compare your Gilpin's DNA results to those of the DUFF surname (since Kenneth MacAlpin had a fourth great grandson named BODHE, Chief of Clan Duff ). Just another clue as to possible surname lineages from Kenneth MacAlpin. I found seven including yours that make for interesting comparisons. You all share DYS 426 and 388 both with values of 12 (and I believe that possibly identifies you as of the R Haplogroup. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong). The Three individuals tested at FTDNA only two have estimated haplogroups both FTNDA says are R1b's I plan later in the year to get my male ID P333U. SNP tested at EA. P333U has been tested for DYS464 extended and Kitller test at DNAFP. He has some very unusual results for DYS464d. The results were Kittler 14-11 which is normal for R1b and 15c-15c-16c-17.1g the cccg pattern is normal again for R1b. but the 17.1 is not, actually it is quite rare and hopefully it is a family indicator. No one else of the Gilpin yDNA group has been tested for Kittler or DYS464X. Are you on the Genealogy-DNA mailing list? They discuss the Irish and Scotts Kingship yDNA lineages all the time. I try to keep up but as I said they confuse me... By the way I have Finleys in my files although, they are collateral lineages not direct blood lines. If you like I could send them to you but you will need to put me on your accept list as aol bounces me... Or I could put them on a webpage real quick and you could go read them.. and see f you want them... Nelda Nelda's websites - http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ Gilpin DNA Project member

Hi, I'd like to thank all of you who have taken time to try to help with my request for information as to if there was a McAlpine male who had been tested with the Scot DNA project. As I understand it, at present the answer is no; there is not. I also want to thank those of you who googled deGylpin, deGylpyn and Gilpin, finding websites and resources for me. That was more then kind. I should have from the start explained I run the Gilpin message board, created the Gilpin mailing list, which I no longer admin, That I am a member of GILPINsearch@yoogroups have an all Gilpin website and am co-admin to the Gilpin DNA project, plus webmaster. I think you all are very helpful kind people and if you ever need info from any of the 30 + message boards I run or the 20+ mailing lists I admin.. just hollar.. Nelda Nelda's websites - http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ Gilpin DNA Project member

Nelda, I don't recognize Gilpin as a Scottish name and it is not listed in Phillip Smith's Tartan For Me. To follow up on the MacAlpine question, I suggest that you contact the Clan MacAlpine Society's genealogical contact. I keep track of all the genealogists for the Clans and Family Associations and here is what I have for MacAlpine: Repository Administrator Clan MacAlpine Society 32682 Rosemont Drive Trabuco Highlands, CA 92679-3386 FAX: (949) 888-8219 email: repository@macalpineclan.com Home Page: http://www.macalpineclan.com Yours aye, Bob McLaren > [Original Message] > From: Nelda Percival <nelda_percival@hotmail.com> > To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: 5/28/2006 5:25:07 PM > Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] Clan McAlpin / MacAlpine question > > Hi Jim, > I also looked for a surname project for them.. that's how I ended up here. > The name is in your descriptions.. > > I'm not so interested in the Clan McAlpine as I am interested in finding out > where the Gilpins descend from. The unproven but taken as fact even by the > most exact researchers is the story that the deGylpin's of Kentmere Hall, > Kendal, Westmoreland, England, came with William I and are of Norman > descent, and that all descends are from this line. > > Now, we all know there is a next to zerro chance of this plus... in just the > four Gilpins tested there are definately three different lineages. In the > 1500's (doing this from memory) a heroldic advisory to the King said all > Gilpins were Scotts...?? again not possible.. So I have been trying to find > a yDNA connection to any of them.. > > Since the advisor suggested Scotts I have tried to find what Clans had > Gilpins .. the only one so far is Mac Alpine. > > So the need for comparisons > > Thanks > Nelda > > Nelda's websites - > http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ > Gilpin DNA Project member

Hi Nelda: A peek into the main database for the project may reveal more. Not all results are posted at FTDNA as the Project accepts participants from ALL labs. I think there is a downloadable copy on the passworded web site. Charlotte can provide entry/pw for you. Yours Aye, Lauren

Nelda, I searched the last Excel spreadsheet with the Scots DNA results...dated Feb. 26, 2005...and found no MacAlpines of any spelling you listed. David