Andrew, True, it is all cumulative probability. However, the probability is extremely low and not worth pursuing (at least for now). I will reevaluate when I get some more family members tested of these two. BTW, the six markers that differed were the "fast 5" plus GATA H4 Bob > [Original Message] > From: Andrew and Inge <andrew.en.inge@skynet.be> > To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: 7/14/2006 2:47:20 AM > Subject: RE: [SCOT-DNA] MacWho and The Bruce > > Hi Robert > > I tend to agree, but don't forget that this is all cumulative probability. > The 31/37 McLarens could possibly be related in genealogical time. I have at > least one experience where a test >37 made two people look more similar > again. One thing to keep in mind is that the 3rd panel of FT DNA is full of > "fast changing" markers. There are also certain types of mutation which can > quickly give a big looking distance. For example YCAII can go from 19-23 to > 19-19 in one step. > > But I agree that 25 marker tests often give misleading impressions, and 37 > marker tests normally don't. > > Best Regards > Andrew > > -----Original Message----- > From: robert mclaren [mailto:bobmclaren@earthlink.net] > Sent: Friday, 14 July 2006 5:13 AM > To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] MacWho and The Bruce > > > Howard, > > Until recently, I would agree that 25-marker matches define the branch and > 37-markers define the twig. However, I have had two MacLarens match 25/25, > but at 37 markers they had 6 markers mismatch. This is too many and > indicates any relationship is too far back in time to be genealogical > meaningful. I have requested that the results be doublechecked, so if this > changes, I will let you know. > > Based on this, and some others who were in the grey area at 25 markers, I > now strongly urge anyone joining my project to get 37 markers.

Hi Robert I tend to agree, but don't forget that this is all cumulative probability. The 31/37 McLarens could possibly be related in genealogical time. I have at least one experience where a test >37 made two people look more similar again. One thing to keep in mind is that the 3rd panel of FT DNA is full of "fast changing" markers. There are also certain types of mutation which can quickly give a big looking distance. For example YCAII can go from 19-23 to 19-19 in one step. But I agree that 25 marker tests often give misleading impressions, and 37 marker tests normally don't. Best Regards Andrew -----Original Message----- From: robert mclaren [mailto:bobmclaren@earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, 14 July 2006 5:13 AM To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] MacWho and The Bruce Howard, Until recently, I would agree that 25-marker matches define the branch and 37-markers define the twig. However, I have had two MacLarens match 25/25, but at 37 markers they had 6 markers mismatch. This is too many and indicates any relationship is too far back in time to be genealogical meaningful. I have requested that the results be doublechecked, so if this changes, I will let you know. Based on this, and some others who were in the grey area at 25 markers, I now strongly urge anyone joining my project to get 37 markers.

Howard, Until recently, I would agree that 25-marker matches define the branch and 37-markers define the twig. However, I have had two MacLarens match 25/25, but at 37 markers they had 6 markers mismatch. This is too many and indicates any relationship is too far back in time to be genealogical meaningful. I have requested that the results be doublechecked, so if this changes, I will let you know. Based on this, and some others who were in the grey area at 25 markers, I now strongly urge anyone joining my project to get 37 markers. Bob > [Original Message] > From: Howard Wayne Roberts <wayne@connectfree.co.uk> > To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: 7/10/2006 9:32:30 PM > Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] MacWho and The Bruce > > I don't think thats the case Jim, although I agree that the 12 marker is > not a good indicator other than a distant possibility. > > I am baffled by the fact that some of your Gordon matches at 25 didn't > hold up to the 37 marker resolution, but doesn't that just indicate a > younger/older branch of the Gordon line rather an entirely different > line? The last 12 markers at 37 are known to mutate quickly than any > other. What I meant to say is that if there is some convergence at 25 > markers then surely these Gordons share an ancestor with you be it x > years ago. > > In the Roberts Bahamas project, where it was known that they all shared > a common ancestor 300 years ago. Some of the lines were only 21/25 with > each other, never mind at the higher 37 resolution, and these Roberts' > are not close to anyone else Worldwide. > > Rule of thumb is that the 12 marker is the tree, 25 the branch and 37 > markers the twig. > > Regards > > Howard Wayne Roberts

Howard, Jim Your "rule of thumb" is correct, but the particular combination of 11 markers that Colin is pointing to is unusual enough that it is at least worth noticing. (Try www.yhrd.org or smgf.org) You should also have noticed that both Colin and I expressed a wish that more markers were tested. Concerning your Gordons who don't match at 37 markers, I think it is relevant to ask whether these Gordons have very common haplotypes or not. If they are all close to WAMH for example, then I would see no special reason to think them closely related - which is one of the reasons FT DNA now has 67 markers available. Regards Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Howard Wayne Roberts [mailto:wayne@connectfree.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 3:31 AM To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] MacWho and The Bruce I don't think thats the case Jim, although I agree that the 12 marker is not a good indicator other than a distant possibility. I am baffled by the fact that some of your Gordon matches at 25 didn't hold up to the 37 marker resolution, but doesn't that just indicate a younger/older branch of the Gordon line rather an entirely different line? The last 12 markers at 37 are known to mutate quickly than any other. What I meant to say is that if there is some convergence at 25 markers then surely these Gordons share an ancestor with you be it x years ago. In the Roberts Bahamas project, where it was known that they all shared a common ancestor 300 years ago. Some of the lines were only 21/25 with each other, never mind at the higher 37 resolution, and these Roberts' are not close to anyone else Worldwide. Rule of thumb is that the 12 marker is the tree, 25 the branch and 37 markers the twig. Regards Howard Wayne Roberts jimgordo1@aol.com wrote: > > > Colin --Since whwn does adn 11 out of 12 match prove anything beyond a > dim possibility of a relationship between the testers? There were four > of us Gordons matching on both the 12- and 25-marker. It took the > 37-marker to indicate that one of us was from an entirely different > line. To show ANY kind of dsecendancy, more makers are needed -- the > more the better, unless the 25-marker throws it all out. > > Cheers, Jim Gordon > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email > and IM. All on demand. Always Free. > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > All posts to this list are archived and cannot be edited from: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/SCOT-DNA/ > Please bear this in mind if you are considering posting > anything of a sensitive nature re your personal DNA. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== THANK YOU to all the Scot DNA Volunteers! They give freely of their time and effort to this Project and study. NO ONE in this Project receives any financial or in-kind remuneration for their work. Please be patient with them as they perform the work necessary to analyze and report the findings of what has been submitted to the Project by a multitude of sources. ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Hello: I am sharing a post made by, Mike Boyd of Australia, the Historian for House of Boyd as it provides a description of the clan structure that may be of interest. Please include his email address of <historian@clanboyd.org> in your response as he is not subscribed to this list. DO NOT reply to my address. Thank you. Yours Aye, Lauren President House of Boyd Society http://www.clanboyd.org -----Forwarded Message----- >From: Mike Boyd <mikejboyd@bigpond.com> >Sent: Jul 11, 2006 4:33 AM >To: BOYD-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [BOYD] Gorman Sept > >Christian >In short I have not been able to find any links of Boyds to any Septs. > >Some years ago I found this comment:- > >"Clans consisted of "native men" and "broken men." The "native men" were >those related to the Chief and to each other by blood ties. This blood >relationship is an important fundamental in the clan system and was a strong >element in the patriarchal system of government, all being bound together in >a common interest. The clan also contained septs or branches composed of >clansmen who had become powerful or prominent in some way, and founded >families almost as important as that of the Chief. The "broken men" were >individuals or groups from other clans who had sought and obtained the >protection of the clan. The clan organisation consisted of the chief, the >tanist, the chieftains, the captain, the daoin'-uaisle--the gentlemen, and >the general body of the clan. An Act passed in 1587 "for the quiting and >keeping inobedience of the disorderit and subjectis inhabitants of the >Borders, Highland and Isles" containing a roll of "the clans that have >Captains, Chiefs and Chieftains on whom they depend offtimes against the >will of their Landlords as well on the Borders as the Highlands" may be >considered proof of the existence of the patriarchal system among the >inhabitants of the districts named as against the feudal holdings of the >landlords, and also gives us three ranks in the clans." > >Which was taken from an explanation of clan development from The Clan and >Tartans of Scotland, Robert Bain, 1981, pp 13-18. > >I know that the Boyds had various feuds from the 1400's until the 1600's but >I have not seen anything on taking in "broken men" into the Clan. > >I am sure the list would be most interested in fiond out why you think that >the Gormans were a Sept of the Boyds. I could not even find a marrage >betweem a Boyd and Gorman. > > > >Mike Boyd > >Historical Committee, HBS > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Christian D. Boyd and Karen Selbert" <cdboyd@win.net> >To: <BOYD-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 12:30 PM >Subject: [BOYD] Gorman Sept > > >> >> Can anyone tell me how the Gormans became a sept of Boyd? >> >> Peace, >> Christian >> >> >> >> ==== BOYD Mailing List ==== >> Visit the Archives for this list: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BOYD/ >> Messages date back to 1980 (2) and more beginning in 1997 >> after the list was moved from Maiser and the archiver was >> activated. For Interactive search visit: >> http://searches2.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl >> > > >==== BOYD Mailing List ==== >Visit: >http://E.webring.com/hub?ring=clanboydring >Join the Clan Boyd Ring! >

I don't think thats the case Jim, although I agree that the 12 marker is not a good indicator other than a distant possibility. I am baffled by the fact that some of your Gordon matches at 25 didn't hold up to the 37 marker resolution, but doesn't that just indicate a younger/older branch of the Gordon line rather an entirely different line? The last 12 markers at 37 are known to mutate quickly than any other. What I meant to say is that if there is some convergence at 25 markers then surely these Gordons share an ancestor with you be it x years ago. In the Roberts Bahamas project, where it was known that they all shared a common ancestor 300 years ago. Some of the lines were only 21/25 with each other, never mind at the higher 37 resolution, and these Roberts' are not close to anyone else Worldwide. Rule of thumb is that the 12 marker is the tree, 25 the branch and 37 markers the twig. Regards Howard Wayne Roberts jimgordo1@aol.com wrote: > > > Colin --Since whwn does adn 11 out of 12 match prove anything beyond a > dim possibility of a relationship between the testers? There were four > of us Gordons matching on both the 12- and 25-marker. It took the > 37-marker to indicate that one of us was from an entirely different > line. To show ANY kind of dsecendancy, more makers are needed -- the > more the better, unless the 25-marker throws it all out. > > Cheers, Jim Gordon > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email > and IM. All on demand. Always Free. > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > All posts to this list are archived and cannot be edited from: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/SCOT-DNA/ > Please bear this in mind if you are considering posting > anything of a sensitive nature re your personal DNA. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Colin --Since whwn does adn 11 out of 12 match prove anything beyond a dim possibility of a relationship between the testers? There were four of us Gordons matching on both the 12- and 25-marker. It took the 37-marker to indicate that one of us was from an entirely different line. To show ANY kind of dsecendancy, more makers are needed -- the more the better, unless the 25-marker throws it all out. Cheers, Jim Gordon ________________________________________________________________________ Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

How did they do that? ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 09:14:40 -0700 > From: colinf@sierratel.com > To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [SCOT-DNA] MacWho and The Bruce > > The following site claims to have a Haplotype from a direct descendant > of Robert the Bruce: > http://www.small-stuff.com/BRUCE/results.htm > > The 12 markers presented are close to the MacWho modal with the > exception of DYS385a=11. Given that this is the marker said in the > MacWho modal to have been a “recLOH” mutation, can we now ask are the > MacWho descendants of Robert the Bruce? > -- > Cheers, > Colin Ferguson _________________________________________________________________ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d

Colin If I recall correctly, apart from the MacWho Fergusons, there were also some in the category of being possible distant relatives? Of course with 12 markers, this is much more common, but it is not "so" common. See Ysearch individuals 4YU9J and URJYW. Regards Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Colin Ferguson [mailto:colinf@sierratel.com] Sent: Saturday, 8 July 2006 2:54 PM To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [SCOT-DNA] MacWho and The Bruce Hello Andrew, I am surprised that they as a group haven't haven't banded together and upgraded these results to more markers. Some of the ancient FERGUSSON families claim to descend from Fergus, Prince of Galloway who died 1161. As Robert the Bruce descends from Fergus we in the FERGUS(S)ON DNA Project are interested in exploring this further. -- Cheers, Colin ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== Need to contact the list admin? Send your email to Scot-DNA-admin@rootsweb.com Want to post? Send your email to Scot-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Need to unsubscribe for vacation or? Send your unsubscription request to Scot-DNA-L-request@rootsweb.com Scot-DNA list is a flame free zone. Want to join the Project? Visit: http://www.ftdna.com/surname_det.asp?group=Scottish-Clans&projecttype=G ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Hello Andrew, I am surprised that they as a group haven't haven't banded together and upgraded these results to more markers. Some of the ancient FERGUSSON families claim to descend from Fergus, Prince of Galloway who died 1161. As Robert the Bruce descends from Fergus we in the FERGUS(S)ON DNA Project are interested in exploring this further. -- Cheers, Colin

Interesting? I take it you refer to the first two individuals for whom there are only 12 markers? It would be interesting to see more markers. Regards Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Colin Ferguson [mailto:colinf@sierratel.com] Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 6:15 PM To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SCOT-DNA] MacWho and The Bruce The following site claims to have a Haplotype from a direct descendant of Robert the Bruce: http://www.small-stuff.com/BRUCE/results.htm The 12 markers presented are close to the MacWho modal with the exception of DYS385a=11. Given that this is the marker said in the MacWho modal to have been a “recLOH” mutation, can we now ask are the MacWho descendants of Robert the Bruce? -- Cheers, Colin Ferguson ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== All posts to this list are archived and cannot be edited from: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/SCOT-DNA/ Please bear this in mind if you are considering posting anything of a sensitive nature re your personal DNA. ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta rgetid=5429

The following site claims to have a Haplotype from a direct descendant of Robert the Bruce: http://www.small-stuff.com/BRUCE/results.htm The 12 markers presented are close to the MacWho modal with the exception of DYS385a=11. Given that this is the marker said in the MacWho modal to have been a “recLOH” mutation, can we now ask are the MacWho descendants of Robert the Bruce? -- Cheers, Colin Ferguson

> -----Original Message----- > >From: Laurence McLeod-Maddox <lmclm@hotmail.com> > >Sent: Jul 6, 2006 7:23 AM > >To: confido@ix.netcom.com > >Subject: RE: Re: Subscribe lmclm@hotmail.com > > > >13 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 FTDNA order > >24/10 indicate Scotland > >I'm in Japan. > >Refinement of DNA sample due 16 Aug 2006 > >Colla Uais 80% match > >Somerled 25% match Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 08:14:46 -0700 > From: confido@ix.netcom.com > To: lmclm@hotmail.com > Subject: RE: Re: Subscribe lmclm@hotmail.com > > Laurence: > > The address to send List Posts to is: > scot-DNA-L@rootsweb.com > > Yours Aye, > > Lauren > Scot DNA List Admin > _________________________________________________________________ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d

Greetings, I was the one who asked the original question about mtDNA testing that has prompted additional recent postings on the subject. I guess what it boils down to is: could or would mtDNA testing reveal if my maternal line was of Celtic origin? We have been unable to trace this part of our family tree beyond my great great grandmother.......but I have a strong suspicion that her mother may have been a Milroy/MacElroy (associated with Clan MacGillivray?). So, even if I could not find a recent link to another individual, would the test at least establish a Celtic vs. Norse origin, for example? Also, as in Y-DNA testing, where there are 37-marker tests and so forth, should I be looking for a certain number of markers as the current "gold standard" when having mtDNA analyzed? Best regards, Susan Carlson

Hi there Scot-DNA folks, I'm wondering if there are any participants of Mi'kmac descent? We're conducting a study that seeks to prove Scotsman, Prince Henry St. Clair discovered North America nearly 100 years before Columbus. Thanks, Steve

The Genealogy-DNA Archives on Rootsweb are a good place to search for answers to DNA related questions as well. Looking there to see what you can learn and then posting to the actual list is an excellent way to learn more from the many knowledgeable people who monitor that list. http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/?list=GENEALOGY-DNA Enjoy the adventure, John Carr On Jun 13, 2006, at 10:16 PM, Nelda Percival wrote: > Hi, > Why don't you join the genalogy-dna mailing list to get your answer.. > They do about 200 emails a day so you probablty wouldn't want to say > very long , unles you got really interested. We have everyone from > beginers to some of the PHD's who run the labs.. > Nelda > > Nelda's websites - > http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ > Gilpin DNA Project member > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > Have questions about the lab? About privacy? About the process? > Visit the FAQ page: > http://www.familytreedna.com/faq.html > Want to join the project? Visit: > http://www.ftdna.com/surname_det.asp?group=Scottish- > Clans&projecttype=G > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

Hi, Why don't you join the genalogy-dna mailing list to get your answer.. They do about 200 emails a day so you probablty wouldn't want to say very long , unles you got really interested. We have everyone from beginers to some of the PHD's who run the labs.. Nelda Nelda's websites - http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ Gilpin DNA Project member

Dear Steve: I understood that to be an established fact with the finding of the stone in Connecticut a few years ago. Isn't it in Glastonbury? "Discovered"... hrmmm... we seem to hear all the time of someone earlier... Eric the Red... others? However, "visited" surely fits. Afterall, Columbus' navigator used the Zeno maps to get here, did he not? Those were established by Prince Henry Sinclair's navigator. Not something currently taught in American, or proabably other schools, unfortunately. Yours Aye, Lauren

Hi Nelda: A few years ago there was something in the news re either Jesse James or Billy the Kid... I forget, but think it was JJ. Seems two towns claimed to have his body buried in their cemetery. A paper chase ensued and the descendents of Jesse's mother's sister [if I recall correctly], who happened to be male, had their mtDNA tested against the buried remains to identify who the real Jesse James was... and where he was buried. So, yes, after a fashion, mtDNA can be used to corroborate paper genealogy research. However, to take a stab in the dark and say that all those in a given area at a certain point in time, with the same surname perhaps, are closely related, simply due to sharing mtDNA, could be dead wrong. Case in point..... Cal Boyd, genealogist emeritas and former Boyd DNA Project Manager, used to share my home. We have the same surname. Our paternal genealogy would point to a probable common ancestor circa 1205, but not in the closer sevreral hundred years [unless my brother will relent to testing]. For all intent and purpose, we are "not related." However, we do share the same mtDNA. He has a bit more mutation on his than I have on mine. He is just as "related" to me as Bennet Greenspan. Yet, again, we have no maternal lines that connect in recorded history. My maternal lineage goes back to Bavaria in the 1700s. His leads to Ireland. We are cousins, with 50% probability, within 10,000 years and no closer. That is as close as the mtDNA can bring us. Same place, same time, same surname. And... his sister Sandy would have the same mtDNA. Still not related, even were she to live in the same town as I, which she does not. And his nieces to my nieces. We were not born in the same area, nor grew up in the same community. We connected via our Scottish Clan organization. I might add that we were both *extremely* surprised to find that we share the same Ancient Mother. What are the odds? Yours Aye, Lauren H CRS 315.1c

Hi Everybody, In answer to if mtDNA can Help with a genealogy study.... Nelda Bill, The question from a person on that list was does mtDNA actualy bring two different paper trails together or does the paper trail prove why they both have a particular mtDNA result? Would your links provide that type of info? (to me that is a silly question but....?? ) Nelda 1.) Reply: I would rather say that they collaborate like land transactions and daughters' names in wills. Rebekah ~~~~~~~~~~~ 2.) Reply: Hi again cousin Nelda, In the beginning was the paper trail. But the paper trail was missing the keystone; that is, there was no piece of direct evidence connecting the two Kelly sisters. Only several pieces of indirect and circumstantial evidence. In a sense, the perfect mtDNA match is just another piece of circumstantial evidence, but it happens to be completely independent of all the other evidence. Looking at the mtDNA match one way, you could say that the common mtDNA ancestor of my two cousins could be further back - much further back - than the mother of the Kelly sisters. But from another point of view, the odds of two people picked at random having exactly the same mtDNA is extremely low. Of course, in this case the two were not picked at random; they were picked because my paper research had determined that the two Kelly women were sisters. Another answer to your question: chicken, egg. Bill Hurst ~~~~~~~~~~~ Bills reply: Here are two references to the results of my "Kelly sisters project." The first is the original posting on this list. Wow, almost three years ago. Time flies. The second one is to a fuller discussion of the background of the project. There is also a brief discussion starting on p. 70 in the Smolenyak and Turner "Tracing Your Roots...." book. http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2003-10/1065235553 http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wrhurst/lindsey-kelly/catherinekellyparents.htm Bill Hurst ~~~~~~~~~ And page 69 has a story about identifying the maiden name of a Mrs. Scott, which would tie in with your Scott list, too. Ann Turner ~~~~~~~~~~~~