Dear Bill: I'm not sure how you are counting "matches". I just looked at our rate on the Scottish Clans Project. We basically accept anyone that claims to have a Scottish Heritage. Althouth this may narrow the randomness a bit ... but not much We have received 395 members as of tonight ( Sept 4 2006). There are 405 notices of matches from Family Tree. Obviously there were a number of families and Clan members that joined together and had their DNA tested here. I was somewhat surprised by the number of "close matches"..... even on 37 markers. Most were of the 33,34,35,36,37 .. therefore a 99.% probability Best Regards John A Hansen Scottish Clans admin www.beintouch.com www.brigadoon.net From: "Lowe DNA" < bbailey.lowedna@baileyconnection.com> Subject: [DNA] PERCENTAGE MATCH SUCCESS RATES FOR SURNAME PROJECTS ? Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:40:33 -0500 List... I am interested in the match success rate of SURNAME PROJECTS that have close matches at 23 or more markers on 25; or, 33 or more markers on 37. We coordinate three projects and these are our matches rates as of today.. Lowe (we require 25 markers to enroll) ....25 matches out of 53 men which is a ....42% match rate. Stephens-Stevens (we require 25 markers to enroll) ....27 matches out of 57 men which is a ....47.4% match rate. Bailey ...24 matches out of 49 men which is a ...49% match rate. I would like to hear from other list members who are project coordinators to find out if the 42-50% match rate is standard at 25 and 37 markers with FTDNA, and other, testing companies. As always, thanks Bill

Win, Very correct as the Johnstone clan chief comes from the distaff side. Cliff. ---- Win MacKenzie <mackenzietree@shaw.ca> wrote: > Isn't it also true that some Clan Chiefs are NOT from the paternal line? > If there was no male heir didn't a grandson (of a daughter) take the > name and > whatever title ? > Isn't that what took place with the Munros of Foulis ? > And MacKenzies (correct me if I'm wrong on this one.) > Win MacKenzie > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > THANK YOU to all the Scot DNA Volunteers! They give freely > of their time and effort to this Project and study. NO ONE > in this Project receives any financial or in-kind remuneration > for their work. Please be patient with them as they perform the work > necessary to analyze and report the findings of what has been > submitted to the Project by a multitude of sources. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Do you mean James VI when you say: Tanistry was abolished by a legal decision in the reign of James I and the English land system substituted. ---------------------------------------- > From: drorer@fuse.net > Subject: RE: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chiefs > Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 14:34:23 -0400 > To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com > > There is also the institution of Tanistry which is still followed to some > extent. See below from http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Tanistry > > TANISTRY (from Gaelic tana, lordship), a custom among various Celtic tribes, by > which the king or chief of the clan was chosen from among the heads of the septs > and elected by them in full assembly. He held office for life and was required > by custom to be of full age, in possession of all his faculties and without any > remarkable blemish of mind or body. At the same time, and subject to the same > conditions, a tanist or next heir to the chieftaincy was elected, who if the > king died or became disqualified, at once became king. Usually the king's son > became tanist, but not because the system of primogeniture was in any way > recognized; indeed, the only principle adopted was that the dignity of > chieftainship should descend to the eldest and most worthy of the same blood. > These epithets, as Hallam says, were not necessarily synonymous, but merely > indicated that the preference given to seniority was to be controlled by a due > regard to desert (Constit. Hist., vol. iii. c. xviii.). This. system of > succession left the headship open to the ambitious, and was a frequent source of > strife both in families and between the clans. Tanistry was abolished by a legal > decision in the reign of James I and the English land system substituted. > > Note: the Encylopedia Brittanica notwithstanding, Adam in Clans, Septs etc. > states that Tanistry is still a part of Scots heraldic and clan law. I know that > in 1954, when Archibald Corrie Macnab was recognized as the 22nd chief of the > clan, his wife renounced the Tanistry of Macleod, which she appears to have had > by right of her mother who was Dame Flora MacLeod of MacLeod. (see The Clans, > Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlans by Frank Adam) > > David Rorer > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John Carr [mailto:jcarrgensearch@earthlink.net] > > Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:30 PM > > To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chiefs > > > > Yes, that is what we call daughtered out, when the only descendants are > > daughters. In that case, the title may pass to the daughter's husband > > or their eldest son. If there are no children or brothers, title could > > pass far afield to whomever is determined to be next of kin. There is > > also the possibility of the title being reassigned to an unrelated > > person as a reward. In those cases the YDNA of the chieftain changes > > to the new paternal line. Thus having the living Clan Chieftain's YDNA > > is less important than having YDNA from a documented male who descends > > paternally from the line you believe you descend from also. > > > > John Carr > > > > On Sep 2, 2006, at 7:50 PM, Win MacKenzie wrote: > > > > > Isn't it also true that some Clan Chiefs are NOT from the paternal > > > line? > > > If there was no male heir didn't a grandson (of a daughter) take the > > > name and > > > whatever title ? > > > Isn't that what took place with the Munros of Foulis ? > > > And MacKenzies (correct me if I'm wrong on this one.) > > > Win MacKenzie > > > > > > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > > > THANK YOU to all the Scot DNA Volunteers! They give freely > > > of their time and effort to this Project and study. NO ONE > > > in this Project receives any financial or in-kind remuneration > > > for their work. Please be patient with them as they perform the work > > > necessary to analyze and report the findings of what has been > > > submitted to the Project by a multitude of sources. > > > > > > ============================== > > > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > > > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > > > > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > > AOL users are advised to join the AOLers-Rootsweb list: > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/RootsWeb_Support/AOLers-RootsWeb.html > > > > ============================== > > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > > New content added every business day. Learn more: > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > All posts to this list are archived and cannot be edited from: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/SCOT-DNA/ > Please bear this in mind if you are considering posting > anything of a sensitive nature re your personal DNA. > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > _________________________________________________________________ Search from any Web page with powerful protection. Get the FREE Windows Live Toolbar Today! http://www.toolbar.live.com

As the article on Tanistry was quoted from Encyclopedia Britannica; it would naturally refer to James by his English /British Title "James I, " rather than his Scottish title "James VI.." Further, as it refers to "the English land system ," I would think that the King of England, rather than the King of Scotland would have approved it.(even 'tho they're the same person). Cheers, Jim Gordon In a message dated 9/4/2006 10:47:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, lmclm@hotmail.com writes: Do you mean James VI when you say: Tanistry was abolished by a legal decision in the reign of James I and the English land system substituted.

There is also the institution of Tanistry which is still followed to some extent. See below from http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Tanistry TANISTRY (from Gaelic tana, lordship), a custom among various Celtic tribes, by which the king or chief of the clan was chosen from among the heads of the septs and elected by them in full assembly. He held office for life and was required by custom to be of full age, in possession of all his faculties and without any remarkable blemish of mind or body. At the same time, and subject to the same conditions, a tanist or next heir to the chieftaincy was elected, who if the king died or became disqualified, at once became king. Usually the king's son became tanist, but not because the system of primogeniture was in any way recognized; indeed, the only principle adopted was that the dignity of chieftainship should descend to the eldest and most worthy of the same blood. These epithets, as Hallam says, were not necessarily synonymous, but merely indicated that the preference given to seniority was to be controlled by a due regard to desert (Constit. Hist., vol. iii. c. xviii.). This. system of succession left the headship open to the ambitious, and was a frequent source of strife both in families and between the clans. Tanistry was abolished by a legal decision in the reign of James I. and the English land system substituted Note: the Encylopedia Brittanica notwithstanding, Adam in Clans, Septs etc. states that Tanistry is still a part of Scots heraldic and clan law. I know that in 1954, when Archibald Corrie Macnab was recognized as the 22nd chief of the clan, his wife renounced the Tanistry of Macleod, which she appears to have had by right of her mother who was Dame Flora MacLeod of MacLeod. (see The Clans, Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlans by Frank Adam) David Rorer > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carr [mailto:jcarrgensearch@earthlink.net] > Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:30 PM > To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chiefs > > Yes, that is what we call daughtered out, when the only descendants are > daughters. In that case, the title may pass to the daughter's husband > or their eldest son. If there are no children or brothers, title could > pass far afield to whomever is determined to be next of kin. There is > also the possibility of the title being reassigned to an unrelated > person as a reward. In those cases the YDNA of the chieftain changes > to the new paternal line. Thus having the living Clan Chieftain's YDNA > is less important than having YDNA from a documented male who descends > paternally from the line you believe you descend from also. > > John Carr > > On Sep 2, 2006, at 7:50 PM, Win MacKenzie wrote: > > > Isn't it also true that some Clan Chiefs are NOT from the paternal > > line? > > If there was no male heir didn't a grandson (of a daughter) take the > > name and > > whatever title ? > > Isn't that what took place with the Munros of Foulis ? > > And MacKenzies (correct me if I'm wrong on this one.) > > Win MacKenzie > > > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > > THANK YOU to all the Scot DNA Volunteers! They give freely > > of their time and effort to this Project and study. NO ONE > > in this Project receives any financial or in-kind remuneration > > for their work. Please be patient with them as they perform the work > > necessary to analyze and report the findings of what has been > > submitted to the Project by a multitude of sources. > > > > ============================== > > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > AOL users are advised to join the AOLers-Rootsweb list: > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/RootsWeb_Support/AOLers-RootsWeb.html > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx

Hi, I am looking for information about the I1c haplogroup in Scotland. I tested a McKenzie uncle and this was his result. I noticed that most McKenzies belonged to the R1b group. Can someone give me information about the I1c group and what this might mean in regards to Clan McKenzie? I also have the McCalebs in my maternal line, but have not found anyone to test. Thanks in advance Linda Stith Threadgill

Yes, that is one clan where a particular line is dominant, and also apparently the chiefly line. Campbell may be the same? Campbell has one very dominant looking haplotype which is a variant of the Scots type also, and apparently shared with psople who have the surname McCutcheon. I have never heard a good theory about why that should be. The MacDonalds on the other hand have a clear signature for most of the chiefly lines (but not all) and then many other haplotypes, including lots of Scots haplotypes. This makes sense given the historical size and spread of the clan. Over a very long time it would only be natural to occasionally need a son-in-law, for example, to take over a title. It should be pointed out, because I know it leads to many misunderstandings, that there always have been many different very legitimate ways in which a surname can be passed to a person who is not a son or daughter, and this is particularly so in a clan situation. Indeed it is very necessary. Even today, if I understand correctly, the Scottish nobility and clan chiefs do not use surnames quite like the rest of us. I was told of a case of a couple who were both heirs to titles, whose children will have different surnames reflecting the different titles they are intended to take up. And men marrying female heirs are still apparently known to change their surname. Regards Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Tagert [mailto:macantsagairt@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, 3 September 2006 8:41 AM To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chiefs Clan Gregor's chief (MacGregor of MacGregor) has tested. His haplotype may be seen on their website. The haplotype is the R1b Scots Modal, with a noteable difference at 385a (MacGregor=10, Scots Modal=11). The haplotype is very common within the clan, & appears commonly among the Stirling surname (sept of Clan Gregor) as well. It is an example of a success story for this approach. It is true that there is great diversity in all the clans, but it is also possible that many of the clans will indeed have a demonstrably visible patriarchal line. Considering Clan Gregor's history, the DNA testing is particularly important for them the results already in have proved the worth of the enterprise. As the databases grow, we *may* see such defintion appearing in many of the clan projects. Pat Tagert

Clan Gregor's chief (MacGregor of MacGregor) has tested. His haplotype may be seen on their website. The haplotype is the R1b Scots Modal, with a noteable difference at 385a (MacGregor=10, Scots Modal=11). The haplotype is very common within the clan, & appears commonly among the Stirling surname (sept of Clan Gregor) as well. It is an example of a success story for this approach. It is true that there is great diversity in all the clans, but it is also possible that many of the clans will indeed have a demonstrably visible patriarchal line. Considering Clan Gregor's history, the DNA testing is particularly important for them the results already in have proved the worth of the enterprise. As the databases grow, we *may* see such defintion appearing in many of the clan projects. Pat Tagert ----Original Message Follows---- From: John Carr <jcarrgensearch@earthlink.net> Reply-To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chiefs Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 20:29:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Received: from lists8.rootsweb.com ([66.43.27.27]) by bay0-mc1-f7.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2444); Sat, 2 Sep 2006 20:31:09 -0700 Received: (from slist@localhost)by lists8.rootsweb.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) id k833Toap001041;Sat, 2 Sep 2006 21:29:50 -0600 X-Message-Info: LsUYwwHHNt2RdABvIAKJYePgtQbek8XSBc129eF77Yk= Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 21:29:50 -0600 X-Original-Sender: jcarrgensearch@earthlink.net Sat Sep 2 21:29:50 2006 References: <200609021104.k82B4pKI005628@lists8.rootsweb.com> <44FA42EF.5090905@shaw.ca> Old-To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) X-Spam-Score: 1.01 (*) BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 on 192.168.65.34 Resent-Message-ID: <UJpiQD.A.0P.uwk-EB@lists8.rootsweb.com> Resent-From: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/1535 X-Loop: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SCOT-DNA-L-request@rootsweb.com Return-Path: SCOT-DNA-L-request@rootsweb.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2006 03:31:09.0492 (UTC) FILETIME=[65B90F40:01C6CF09] Yes, that is what we call daughtered out, when the only descendants are daughters. In that case, the title may pass to the daughter's husband or their eldest son. If there are no children or brothers, title could pass far afield to whomever is determined to be next of kin. There is also the possibility of the title being reassigned to an unrelated person as a reward. In those cases the YDNA of the chieftain changes to the new paternal line. Thus having the living Clan Chieftain's YDNA is less important than having YDNA from a documented male who descends paternally from the line you believe you descend from also. John Carr On Sep 2, 2006, at 7:50 PM, Win MacKenzie wrote: >Isn't it also true that some Clan Chiefs are NOT from the paternal line? >If there was no male heir didn't a grandson (of a daughter) take the name >and >whatever title ? >Isn't that what took place with the Munros of Foulis ? >And MacKenzies (correct me if I'm wrong on this one.) >Win MacKenzie > > >==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== >THANK YOU to all the Scot DNA Volunteers! They give freely >of their time and effort to this Project and study. NO ONE >in this Project receives any financial or in-kind remuneration >for their work. Please be patient with them as they perform the work >necessary to analyze and report the findings of what has been submitted to >the Project by a multitude of sources. > >============================== >Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the >last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: >http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== AOL users are advised to join the AOLers-Rootsweb list: http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/RootsWeb_Support/AOLers-RootsWeb.html ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx

Yes, that is what we call daughtered out, when the only descendants are daughters. In that case, the title may pass to the daughter's husband or their eldest son. If there are no children or brothers, title could pass far afield to whomever is determined to be next of kin. There is also the possibility of the title being reassigned to an unrelated person as a reward. In those cases the YDNA of the chieftain changes to the new paternal line. Thus having the living Clan Chieftain's YDNA is less important than having YDNA from a documented male who descends paternally from the line you believe you descend from also. John Carr On Sep 2, 2006, at 7:50 PM, Win MacKenzie wrote: > Isn't it also true that some Clan Chiefs are NOT from the paternal > line? > If there was no male heir didn't a grandson (of a daughter) take the > name and > whatever title ? > Isn't that what took place with the Munros of Foulis ? > And MacKenzies (correct me if I'm wrong on this one.) > Win MacKenzie > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > THANK YOU to all the Scot DNA Volunteers! They give freely > of their time and effort to this Project and study. NO ONE > in this Project receives any financial or in-kind remuneration > for their work. Please be patient with them as they perform the work > necessary to analyze and report the findings of what has been > submitted to the Project by a multitude of sources. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >

Isn't it also true that some Clan Chiefs are NOT from the paternal line? If there was no male heir didn't a grandson (of a daughter) take the name and whatever title ? Isn't that what took place with the Munros of Foulis ? And MacKenzies (correct me if I'm wrong on this one.) Win MacKenzie

Hi to Andrew et al, Curiously, while my Livingston father's side seems to come up solid Rib (Poropotank), my Campbell mother is from solid R1a and connects closely with all my local Campbell relatives, all with the Campbell surname, back to the 1760s in Maryland/Accomack. Earlier than ~1760 there seem to be no Campbell DNA connections although the paper trail is believed to be known back to ~1700. The DNA samples from my Campbell cousins seem to attach to no earlier Campbells outside my known paper trails. All the DNA similarities seem to fall with Couch/Crouch, Carter, Morrell/Merrill, Kee lines and scattered others. The number of Couch/Crouch connections seems to overwhelm the others; all the non-Campbells are presumably accidental. Julian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew and Inge" <andrew.en.inge@skynet.be> To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 10:06 PM Subject: RE: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chief participation | It's my impression that indeed most clans show a lot of diversity. In other | words DNA is showing that they are really many male lines, not one. However | some clans show that one male line was numerically dominant, possibly | because some ancient patriarch really did have lots of male descendents as | in the popular imagination concerning clans. I am wondering if Campbell is | like this, based on what I have seen so far. | | Macdonald is interesting because there is the famous R1a haplotype which | seems to be Somerled's but also many other haplotypes which I guess are not | all coming from subservient or follower families. For example Somerled may | have married into an older family, forming a new Y dynasty. My guess is that | this happened in many clans, but it is not always so clear in the DNA yet. | | We should however be cautious about saying, for example, that all people in | one clan within big haplogroups like the so-called Scots type are therefore | obviously descended from one patriarch. | | Regards | Andrew | | -----Original Message----- | From: David Rorer [mailto:drorer@fuse.net] | Sent: Saturday, 2 September 2006 1:14 AM | To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com | Subject: RE: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chief participation | | | The chief of Macnab doesn't think much of DNA testing but has allowed that | he | might consent to one if someone should make a large donation to the clan | trust. | Rather self serving in my estimation. | | If you-all will refer to my previous three part posting on the origins of | the | clans, it would not at all be a surprise to find that a chief's DNA results, | particularly for the large clans, do not match those of his clansmen. | MacDonald/MacDougal for example since clans were willing to "adopt in" | persons | who were clan less. Then too, many families who claim to belong to a clan by | virtue of their surname will have arisen spontaneously, by virtue of an | ancestor | having that name at the time their surname became fixed. Again Donald son of | Donald comes to mind. | | | ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== | THANK YOU to all the Scot DNA Volunteers! They give freely | of their time and effort to this Project and study. NO ONE | in this Project receives any financial or in-kind remuneration | for their work. Please be patient with them as they perform the work | necessary to analyze and report the findings of what has been | submitted to the Project by a multitude of sources. | | ============================== | Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the | last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx | |

The Kerr/Carr surnamed individuals who have tested are largely R1b, but for the most part, their genetic distance indicates the common paternal ancestor was a very long time, long before surnames came into vogue in the Northlands of Britannia. There has been some confirmation for folks whose family lore said they shared common paternal ancestry within a few generations and others whose Y haplotypes match but the paper trail connection is missing. Given that there are over 200,000 Kerr/Carr surnamed families in America today (US Census), and a similarly large number elsewhere on the globe, this result from a few samples is not surprising, as more people join in we should see more coalescence of YDNA lines within our surname projects. Kerr Clan is a different story, when I was in Scotland at one of the Kerr Castles the wide variation of surnames in the Kerr Clan was pointed out to me. Individuals who identify themselves as Kerr Clan descendants will not share a common YDNA profile anymore than they do a common surname. Most likely not everyone having a surname common to the Kerr Clan, such as Nixon, actually could be traced to an ancestor within the Kerr Clan either. I just say that to point out that Clan is actually an association of people living within a communal group, at least in many cases, not people who descend from a recent common ancestor or share a common surname. Cheers, John Carr On Sep 1, 2006, at 8:06 PM, Andrew and Inge wrote: > It's my impression that indeed most clans show a lot of diversity. In > other > words DNA is showing that they are really many male lines, not one. > Regards > Andrew >

The Kerr Clan is now led by an Innes, since the Kerr's daughtered out long ago. We do have American participants who believe they can trace their ancestry to the Kerr Chiefs of the 1500's, so it would be great if known living descendants of these lines would join the Carr project, but none have so far. The Kerr Clan Chief is on record as saying he thinks DNA testing is not ready yet. John Carr On Sep 1, 2006, at 1:31 AM, Tei A. Gordon wrote: > Just curious whether there are any Clan Chiefs represented in any of > our DNA > projects? > > > > Tei A. Gordon > > Administrator > > The Gordon DNA Project > > www.TheGordonDNAproject.com <http://www.thegordondnaproject.com/> > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > AOL users are advised to join the AOLers-Rootsweb list: > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/RootsWeb_Support/AOLers- > RootsWeb.html > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx >

It's my impression that indeed most clans show a lot of diversity. In other words DNA is showing that they are really many male lines, not one. However some clans show that one male line was numerically dominant, possibly because some ancient patriarch really did have lots of male descendents as in the popular imagination concerning clans. I am wondering if Campbell is like this, based on what I have seen so far. Macdonald is interesting because there is the famous R1a haplotype which seems to be Somerled's but also many other haplotypes which I guess are not all coming from subservient or follower families. For example Somerled may have married into an older family, forming a new Y dynasty. My guess is that this happened in many clans, but it is not always so clear in the DNA yet. We should however be cautious about saying, for example, that all people in one clan within big haplogroups like the so-called Scots type are therefore obviously descended from one patriarch. Regards Andrew -----Original Message----- From: David Rorer [mailto:drorer@fuse.net] Sent: Saturday, 2 September 2006 1:14 AM To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chief participation The chief of Macnab doesn't think much of DNA testing but has allowed that he might consent to one if someone should make a large donation to the clan trust. Rather self serving in my estimation. If you-all will refer to my previous three part posting on the origins of the clans, it would not at all be a surprise to find that a chief's DNA results, particularly for the large clans, do not match those of his clansmen. MacDonald/MacDougal for example since clans were willing to "adopt in" persons who were clan less. Then too, many families who claim to belong to a clan by virtue of their surname will have arisen spontaneously, by virtue of an ancestor having that name at the time their surname became fixed. Again Donald son of Donald comes to mind.

I should have mentioned the website: http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/Discussion%20Maclea.htm The chiefly clan are amongst the R1b "Scots" haplotypes as are many of the clan leaders. One goal I think many of the clans are working on is trying to use more markers to determine whether this is just a coincidence. (Perhaps up to 20% of Scottish men might be in this group.) Interesting markers for our chiefs include YCAII (19-22 instead of 19-24) and C4 (25). I understand at least some Buchanans share the latter unusual result, but the 19-22 is quite far from what the other chiefs have. What are others seeing now as more markers come in? Regards Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Andrew and Inge [mailto:andrew.en.inge@skynet.be] Sent: Friday, 1 September 2006 5:55 PM To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chief participation Certainly the chiefly family of one of the oldest of titles, the Barons of Bachuil, heads of the Clan MacLea or "Highland Livingstone" clan are. I understand quite a few projects now have chiefly families in. ...but more are needed! Best Regards Andrew Lancaster (admin of the project associated with that clan) -----Original Message----- From: Tei A. Gordon [mailto:tagordon@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, 1 September 2006 10:32 AM To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chief participation Just curious whether there are any Clan Chiefs represented in any of our DNA projects? Tei A. Gordon Administrator The Gordon DNA Project www.TheGordonDNAproject.com <http://www.thegordondnaproject.com/> ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== AOL users are advised to join the AOLers-Rootsweb list: http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/RootsWeb_Support/AOLers-RootsWeb.html ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx

The chief of Macnab doesn't think much of DNA testing but has allowed that he might consent to one if someone should make a large donation to the clan trust. Rather self serving in my estimation. If you-all will refer to my previous three part posting on the origins of the clans, it would not at all be a surprise to find that a chief's DNA results, particularly for the large clans, do not match those of his clansmen. MacDonald/MacDougal for example since clans were willing to "adopt in" persons who were clan less. Then too, many families who claim to belong to a clan by virtue of their surname will have arisen spontaneously, by virtue of an ancestor having that name at the time their surname became fixed. Again Donald son of Donald comes to mind. David Rorer > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob MacLean [mailto:bobmacleanuk@yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 8:21 AM > To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chief participation > > I imagine a few chiefs might be a bit wary. It doesn't really matter to me > if my DNA isn't what it should be but it could be embarrassing for a clan > chief! :-) > > >

Clan Macpherson are in discussion as to joining this field of research and the clan chief Cluny is not averse to the idea. www.clan-macpherson.org Jimmy McPherson Scotland ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tei A. Gordon" <tagordon@hotmail.com> To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chief participation > Just curious whether there are any Clan Chiefs represented in any of our > DNA > projects? > > > > Tei A. Gordon > > Administrator > > The Gordon DNA Project > > www.TheGordonDNAproject.com <http://www.thegordondnaproject.com/> > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > AOL users are advised to join the AOLers-Rootsweb list: > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/RootsWeb_Support/AOLers-RootsWeb.html > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/435 - Release Date: 31/08/2006 > >

We are participating in the Clan Buchanan study. While there is no longer a Clan Chief of Clan Buchanan, we do have some participants from the chiefly line, according to our Buchanan DNA study administrator Alex Buchanan. My cousin, representing our family line, is one of them. Sandra Kidd descendant of James Buchanan of Charles Co, Maryland, d 1751 (earliest known ancestor)

Certainly the chiefly family of one of the oldest of titles, the Barons of Bachuil, heads of the Clan MacLea or "Highland Livingstone" clan are. I understand quite a few projects now have chiefly families in. ...but more are needed! Best Regards Andrew Lancaster (admin of the project associated with that clan) -----Original Message----- From: Tei A. Gordon [mailto:tagordon@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, 1 September 2006 10:32 AM To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Clan Chief participation Just curious whether there are any Clan Chiefs represented in any of our DNA projects? Tei A. Gordon Administrator The Gordon DNA Project www.TheGordonDNAproject.com <http://www.thegordondnaproject.com/> ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== AOL users are advised to join the AOLers-Rootsweb list: http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/RootsWeb_Support/AOLers-RootsWeb.html ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx

Just curious whether there are any Clan Chiefs represented in any of our DNA projects? Tei A. Gordon Administrator The Gordon DNA Project www.TheGordonDNAproject.com <http://www.thegordondnaproject.com/>