----- Original Message ----- From: <tediona@aol.com> To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 8:03 AM Subject: [SCOT-DNA] delete me > delete me > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > Mailing List archives are at: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/SCOT-DNA/ > Subscription to this list is free, as are all of > Rootsweb's resources. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >

delete me

To pick up on what Laruen has just said I would like to propose that we form some teams within the Scot DNA study to focus on more specific areas of individual concerns. My Lamont family lore and DNA points to Dalridian background. Withing that group I am focusing on a smaller group called the "Anradan Kindred". "Acording to traditional Irish and Scottish pedigrees, several Scottish families share a common descent with the O'Neills of Ulster: The families in question are the MacSweeneys of Donegal in Ireland and in Scotland, Maclachlans, Lamonts, MacSorleys, McLeas, MacEwens of Otter, and included by some authorities, the MacNeills of Barra. These families have come to be called the Anradan kindred, because their pedigrees are deduced from a common ancestor named Anradan, said to be the son of Aedh Athlaman, the King of Aileach in northern Ireland, who died in 1033 A.D" quote from D. McLaughlin I am seeing some preliminary early DNA lts showing these realtionships to be worthy of closer study, more particpants are needed. Does this make sense to stay part of the larger Scot group yet get more focused groups? thanks George Young

Agree with you whole heartedly. The 37 YDNA and 25 YDNA tests through Familytreedna.com will mean something, the 37 test especially. The 12 test simply gets the ball rolling and the questions started. In my own case, the 12 test gave me some insight into just how many different people came from those that I came from, but the 25 and 37 Ydna tests really narrowed it down to specific areas, names and places. I was impressed with the 37 results especially. The 12 test just generated a hunger for the more specific information that the 37 test answered. I always thought we were Scots, but my YDNA 37 test through Familytreedna.com family groups Byrne and Burns showed that I am very closely kin to the Chief of the O'Byrne Clan of Leinster in Wicklow, Ireland. It seems we were Irish before one of us went to Scotland for a few generations probably and then on to America. My guess is the 1542 Irish O'Byrne troops furnished to the English for duty in Scotland is how my ancestor got to Scotland. My earliest known Burns relative is David Burnes who was born in Scotland around 1695 and bought land in Maryland in 1721. He actually owned and farmed the land that the White House and many of the older Federal City (Washington, D.C.) government buildings now sit on. General George Washington had to personally negotiate with David Burnes' grandson, David Burnes II, for the sale of the land to the federal government in 1790 for its new capital city. Rich Burns rburns001@hotmail.com<mailto:rburns001@hotmail.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: CJMax<mailto:moments-in-time@charter.net> To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com<mailto:SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] RE: New DNA project proposal Got to agree. DNA testing will give one connections among family members - great for like-surnames and related surnames; however, it would be quite meaningless on a geographic basis which would include a multitude of various family names. Granted, it may link someone with a totally different family name connected via an intimate trist on the side that no one knew about way back when (and I've come across people who have found these - very disturbed they were about it) - shades of the stories of the milkman, etc. - but for the most part sticking with the existing family surname projects is the way to go. Any relationships within the surname will show up quickly. Then it's a much simpler matter of connecting to a more specific location, ie: Co. Fermanagh, etc.. What would be more meaningful would be for those who are interested to look at FTDNA and elsewhere for their surname project. If there isn't one, then start one. Cliff. Johnston "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx<http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx> ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== DNA Results are also being posted on the web site. Email to dnaclans@brigadoon.net<mailto:dnaclans@brigadoon.net> if you want to join the web site. For privacy reasons, this is a closed web site. Want to join the Project? Visit: http://www.ftdna.com/surname_det.asp?group=Scottish-Clans&projecttype=G<http://www.ftdna.com/surname_det.asp?group=Scottish-Clans&projecttype=G> ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx<http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx>

Good grief! More Fighting Sioux! Cliff. Johnston, UND '67 "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay ----- Original Message ----- From: "John A Hansen" <jahansen@brigadoon.net> To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 10:57 AM Subject: [SCOT-DNA] RE: New DNA project proposal > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > DNA Results are also being posted on the web site. > Email to dnaclans@brigadoon.net if you want to join the > web site. For privacy reasons, this is a closed web site. > Want to join the Project? Visit: > http://www.ftdna.com/surname_det.asp?group=Scottish-Clans&projecttype=G > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Got to agree. DNA testing will give one connections among family members - great for like-surnames and related surnames; however, it would be quite meaningless on a geographic basis which would include a multitude of various family names. Granted, it may link someone with a totally different family name connected via an intimate trist on the side that no one knew about way back when (and I've come across people who have found these - very disturbed they were about it) - shades of the stories of the milkman, etc. - but for the most part sticking with the existing family surname projects is the way to go. Any relationships within the surname will show up quickly. Then it's a much simpler matter of connecting to a more specific location, ie: Co. Fermanagh, etc.. What would be more meaningful would be for those who are interested to look at FTDNA and elsewhere for their surname project. If there isn't one, then start one. Cliff. Johnston "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx

To all: ah... whoops! County Antrim, Ulster Province, IRELAND... not "Scotland.' and typo Mary was on the loose too... haplogroup, not hapliogroup. Aye, Lauren

Dear John: Not having located an original message on this thread, I feel as if I have stepped in, mid conversation. Is someone proposing a DNA Project based on inhabitation of each County in Scotland? Honestly, and I am certain that others will disagree, I do not see the value/merit in DNA studies based on such limited geographic areas, especially in modern times. Remote areas, such as Iceland, or the Orkneys & Shetlands may have more to tell as the population was more stable over a very long period of time. However, I must admit to not understanding how the study of DNA of a population of a more mobile area can lead to anything beyond chaos. The ones that particularly boggle my mind are those being established for counties or cities in the USA that have a diverse population. The USA only has a history of some 229 years.... DNA and surnames being trackable over a period of 1,000 for males... and mtDNA for women, going back 10-50,000 yrs. With the Scot DNA project already embracing all of Scottish descent, I also see such a project as being somewhat duplicative in scope and magnitude. My gut feeling is that it will only be even more confusing to those that look to DNA as the item that will absolutely solve their genealogical questions, without having done the usual documentation and research. There are far too many of us that also have a brick wall or six and family legends, but no proof of from whence we came in these more recent times... say 100-300 yrs. I recall several years ago the DNA community changed the nomenclature from being tagged by geography to other tags, such as R1b. Perhaps this change is what makes non-professionals in the field and neophytes to genetic genealogy feel all the more strong about establishing geographic projects for their areas of interest. I don't know. Yet I do understand the desire to have a more definitive answer to the age old question of "where did I come from?" I think that we can agree that people can and indeed do begin projects for any reason and in some instances no apparent reason at all. However, does that make the projects viable? Do they indeed provide *meaningful* data? Are they appropriately managed by someone or a group of someones with an appropriate understanding or working knowledge of both DNA and Genealogy? Is there someone on board to handle the analysis and statistics? Is there any adherence to Scientific procedure ? Is there someone on board that has a good working knowledge of the History of the area? Of the genealogy and solid knowledge re documentation, source citing and primary documentation? Perhaps it is my background as a Project Assistant and having worked to support Scientists that provides me with a more skeptical view and perhaps more desire for sound science along with documented genealogy. DNA projects take a lot of energy and time to manage. Could this group perhaps put their energy and time to ... I don't want to say "better use"... but a more suitable phrase is not coming to mind. Perhaps finding a niche in an existing project to assist with analysis and speculation? Seems more productive to me than a possible further splintering of what, in my perception, is a more viable large geographic project, such as the Scot DNA Project. Again, the Genealogy portion of all the projects is the most difficult to obtain. We can all do cheek swabs in a hot second. However the documentation takes years and considerable effort to enable us to come to more valid conclusions when analysing our DNA data. Those of us that have been involved in genealogy for any length of time realize that we are all on different levels of learning, as our needs have arisen, and that even seasoned genealogists will cringe when facing an example of their early research, before they had figured out what they were "really" doing. And yet, we continue to work to refine the genealogical record. DNA is a new and exciting tool in genealogy. However, it still must have the hard trail in order to "tell the story" beyond "yup, we're cousins." I, for, example, could say that based on History, my Boyds *must* have come from Kilmarnock, Scotland, or perhaps the Isle of Bute. However, I can only prove back to County Antrim, Scotland in the 1800s. That is insufficient data to draw any solid conclusion with. And were I to have my uncle's O'Connell sample, based on family lore -- again, difficult genealogical walls exist, I can only narrow to "Counties Cork, Clare and Kerry." Again in the 1800s. My mtDNA, I can track back to the 1700s in Bavaria... which maybe somewhat closer to the "Northern European" origins of my Hapliogroup. However, that is still only 2-300 yrs out of 10,000 or more. And my surnames will never track with mtDNA. They just do not. Surprise of surprises was that my former housemate and I both had our mtDNA tested. We turned out to share the same Ancestral Mother, as I also do with Bennett Greenspan. However, if you ask any of us our origns, you will get three different answers from our maternal lineages. This is still a new field that we are pioneering. It is exciting indeed. I just hate to see the waters muddied. Well, you've got my nickle's worth.... blast away. :) Yours Aye, Lauren Scot DNA List Admin

David: I remember you from those days :-). I started with Alf Christophersen and Cliff Manis at the University of North Dakota .... and then the resulting transfers to other locations. The resulting "discussions" regarding the "SmartList" and the bridge to the newsgroups and splits caused a big ruckus. Alf has written up the history from his point of view and it's still available on some of the lists. I currently manage the SCOT-DNA project with some pretty wide open requirements. Anyone with potential for scotttish dna is welcome ... and there has been cases of finally obtaining a reasonably close genetic distance from other tests in the database. My point here is that I agree that there should not be a verification test for this. There are some projects with very narrow defined requirements for other reasons. The Orkney Project and the Shetlands projects come to mind. Their objectives are somewhat different than ours with genealogy at the core. There are 4 of us assisting in this project and we still need someone to assist in the technical analysis. We have 4 components in the project: a: a mailing list ( maintained by Lauren Boyd). This discussion could be held on the Scot-Dna-L@rootsweb.com and could bring about 250 people to the discussion that have a specific interest in the British and Scottish DNA analysis. The archives of this mailing list have an extensive 3 year history already of discussions on some of these aspects. b: a private web site to post the database and genealogy backgrounds including gedcoms ( maintained by Charlotte Braun). We plan to stay private since we have had numerous requests to not allow wide and public distribution of the DNA and written history ( Gedcoms). You noted below that you have had some difficulty in getting that information as well. I can share numerous emails etc expressing that concern in very vivid and direct commands :-) " Thou shalt not " etc. Remember the Scottish people by nature are a very private people that Americans sometimes find hard to understand. My recommendation, therefore is to not automatically put the test results in Y search but to give an option to have the project do it for them. This gives the option to do it ... and eliminates the hesitancy of them doing it ( technical hurdles, cost, etc). c: A database ( administered by Marsha Smith). d: the testing program at Family Tree . I know we could NOT have maintained the pace of processing without the support of these people. Your concerns about the support is very much on point. BTW: You can see more details at www.brigadoon.net ( go to Scottish dna). The bridge is the auld brig over the river Doon at Alloway ( Ayr). My wife and I spent a lot of time here and our wedding reception was held here). The auld brig was made famous in the poem ( Tam O' Shanter) by Robert Burns. We process an average of 5 to 10 inquiries per week and sometimes as high as 25 inquiries per week when we get a mention in a journal or some PR. We have accepted over 1100 test results in the database currently. This is not a lot.. but it starts to become statistically significant and gives some idea of the various locations of specific clans, families etc as tied to geography at certain periods. It would appear to me offhand that the discussion of doing this on a county ( shire) basis is perhaps a bit optimistic seeing the 1100 Scottish DNA test results . We see some remarkably close genetic distance results ( less than 5 mutations) from results that are from the Northern Highlands according to the normal Clan maps to the Southern Border ( Reivers country). It appears to me that we can perhaps obtain another 4-5000 test results over the next 12 months with a strong program to get all Scottish descendants tested ( including Europe, New Zealand , Australia, Canada etc etc). You make a very valid point below about the correlation of results. The difficulty that I see is the technical analysis and the correlation of the results in a easier manner than the current methods. There are lots of documents and gedcoms, written history, ridings, church documents etc that are emerging. But these don't mean much if the Clan and Family aren't tied together with DNA testing. I think the biggest gaps are twofold: A: the lack of of correlation of DNA to Clans, and Family ( regardless of location ) with gedcoms, written history, ridings, and church documents etc. that are emerging. B: correlation of the DNA results across Clans and Families. But these documents and results don't mean much if the Clan and Family aren't tied together with DNA testing. Surnames and Clans were very flexible in the period before say ca. 1700 with lots of name and Clan changes taking place in 1745 as one datapoint or instance of culture disruption. The Clans and Border Family were active and warring with each other for food and territory. Non Paternity events were common, affiliations and names were based on protection, food and various other compensation agreements. The Scottish were ( and still are) a very vibrant people and have wandered far and wide across the world. Entire families have disappeared from Scotland and relocated during the Highland Clearances for instance. The last results that I noted was that there are about 5 million people in Scotland and over 30 million in other countries :-). Good Luck on the project and hope this gets going in some form. Best Regards John A Hansen -----Original Message----- From: David B. Strong [mailto:dbsandmd@allstream.net] Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 12:32 PM To: rhite@netwalk.com; jahansen@brigadoon.net; fauxdk@yahoo.com; margaretlj@eircom.net; austinrock@eircom.net; aulicino@hevanet.com; jvance@tiac.net; Richard Barton; Terry Barton; derek@4ed.info; hdpth@earthlink.net; apeiron@vif.com; Katherine Hope Borges Cc: John D. Armstrong; leahw@familytreedna.com Subject: Re: New DNA project proposal Roy and Katherine... I've been following your messages with interest, and mulling the proposal over in my mind. First, let me say that the idea has merit. However, I think the devil is in the details of how to implement the concept. What you are talking about is a massive project, and requires more administration than I think is possible... eg., I think there is an inherent "span of control" problem. One person can't manage a project of the scope you propose... and governance by an email committee is likewise impossible. Some years ago, a number of us who were members of the Strong List [back in the days of the Maiser computer at the University of Indiana] were contemplating constructing an on-line project for researching all of the various Strong/Strange lineages which we knew existed. We soon realized that there was a real problem in administering such an overall project. The solution was to decentralize the project... and allow those who were interested to proceed with the construction of their own websites, designed along lines which they desired, with only a loose coordination in the sense that we all endeavored to provide links to our colleagues in the project. That worked fairly well for a time... and considerable progress was made which has been useful in the long run. Perhaps ANY progress is better than none... so to the extent I can, I am willing to support the project, provided someone else is doing the heavy lifting. I agree with the comments Katherine has made in the message below... and would add to her comment about not restricting join requests that yes, you do lose participants if you try to "vet" each person who joins the project. However, when you allow open joinder, you also lose control over the participants to the extent that often the administrator knows little or nothing about the participant and their reasons for joining the DNA Project. My experience in the admin of the Donegal Bay and Enniskillen Families Geographic project is that many of the participants simply don't respond to my requests for info about their lineages and connections to the geographic area. I know a number of the participants are doing so purely on speculation. And, frankly, I don't have the time to persue them all to try to wheedle the info out of them. Another suggestion is that the Project Administrator should put everyone who joins the project on notice that they will be entered in Y-Search by the Administrator. This policy has been implemented with considerable utility by Jim Elliott, the administrator of the Elliott and Border Reivers DNA Project; I have hesitated in the past to do so, largely based on the concept that each participant should be responsible for managing their own research. However, it is apparent to me that while Y-Search has huge benefits for all who participate in it, one can lead many to the horse-trough, but can't make them voluntarily participate or drink! Putting everyone on prior notice and then automatically entering them in Y-Search eliminates the bottlenecks poised by those who won't take the steps necessary in order to participate. Another suggestion would be that each geographical project should opt to generate an automatic webpage chart of the participants DNA results using FTDNA's utility for that purpose; for example, as found at: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/armstrong I have found it difficult if not impossible to keep track of the allele patterns displayed by the various members of the Donegal Bay project, and intend soon to go to the FTDNA display as an aide to all concerned in addition to the Results page I maintain at: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/donegal_bay.htm A large part of the problem has to do with the fact that we have a rather disparate number of lineages involved, with various haplogroups and haplotypes. On top of that must be added the problems of interpretation caused by mutations, and surname changes, etc. A review of Jim Elliott's Border Reivers by Haplotype data will demonstrate some of what I am concerned about here: See: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/dna_by_haplogroup.htm and notice the occurances of different surnames associated with similar haplotypes. Given the foregoing, I am wondering how one could keep overall track of the haplotypes demonstrated by the various participants in all of the various county or regional projects as proposed, and how to adequately cross-reference and coordinate the data in order to be able to make any purposeful use of it... I'm open to further suggestions and discussion from anyone who is interested in the project. Dave Strong ... Administrator of: Donegal Bay and Enniskillen Families Geographic DNA Project Strong/Strange Surname DNA Project Co-Admin of: Border Reivers DNA Project Armstrong Surname DNA Project, and DNA Study Coordinator & webmaster: Book I: RESEARCHING STRONG(E) AND STRANG(E) IN GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/contents.htm Database and manuscript. See especially Chap. 13, entitled "Lineages"; and Chapt. 15, "DNA Study" http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/dnastudy.htm & Book II: THE DONEGAL STRONG PUZZLE: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/indxdrft.htm Research and study of Counties Donegal and Fermanagh Strongs and related families. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katherine Hope Borges" <kvjjmmborges@msn.com> To: <apeiron@vif.com>; <hdpth@earthlink.net>; <derek@4ed.info>; <terry@bartonsite.org>; <richb@bartons.org>; <dbsandmd@allstream.net>; <jvance@tiac.net>; <aulicino@hevanet.com>; <austinrock@eircom.net>; <margaretlj@eircom.net>; <fauxdk@yahoo.com>; <jahansen@brigadoon.net>; <rhite@netwalk.com>; <JuliaFWood@aol.com>; <ndaven@frontiernet.net> Cc: <leahw@familytreedna.com> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 9:12 AM Subject: Re: New DNA project proposal > Dear Roy, > > Here's another person for you to contact about your proposal as this project > just debuted > yesterday: > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/east%5Fanglia/ > > I'm the administrator of six geographical/heritage projects, all of them > were established > in 2005. I've learned much in one years time through trial and error, and > some reading this > e-mail do not agree with my methods and philosophies, but I will share with > you what I've > learned through my experience: > > My first geographical project was Laurens County, South Carolina. Laurens > has over 200 > years of documented history and no court-house fires! Many families in > Laurens are > autonomous in that they married their neighbors and cousins and never left > the county. > While I don't live anywhere near Laurens, I know more about Laurens than any > county > in which I've ever lived and as you propose, I offer resources for research > on my project > website. Not only is there a resources links pages, but I also offer > cemetery transcriptions > and a referral to a professional Laurens genealogist which is a rare person > to find. So with > this experience, I'd recommend that potential county/region administrators > have knowledge > and interest in the regions they adopt. If they don't have the first-hand > knowledge, then > they should recruit a co-administrator who does. > > I learned last year to not restrict my projects with a "Join Request". It > is much easier to > have someone join your project, then discuss their qualifications, and if > they don't qualify, > then they can be transferred out. I've lost probably as many as 20 people > from joining > by having my projects restricted. > > I'm fine with helping someone with the regional/county projects in Scotland, > but I think > it would be difficult for them to do. Speaking on behalf of my Scottish > ancestors, they > were all over the place, they did not stay for many generations in one > county. I also > own a map of Scottish clan distributions, and again, speaking on behalf of > my familial > clans, they didn't confine themselves to one region or county. That's not > to say that > autonomy in Scotland doesn't exist, but it's probably more likely to be > found in the > Shetlands, isles, or in remote parts of Scotland. > > The bulk of your participants will be Americans. Americans are the ones > primarily > desiring and researching their ancestral origins. For the most part, those > is Britain know > where they came from. So you'll want to be receptive to Genographic > participants. > Probably the largest number of Geno participants in Britain are in England. > The beauty > of the Geno Project, is that it brings the participants and the data to us. > > I hope what I've shared is helpful. > Best regards, > Katherine > > >>From: "Roy Keys" <apeiron@vif.com> >>To: "Katherine Hope Borges" <kvjjmmborges@msn.com>, <hdpth@earthlink.net>, >> <derek@4ed.info>, <terry@bartonsite.org>, <richb@bartons.org>, >> <dbsandmd@allstream.net>, <jvance@tiac.net>, <aulicino@hevanet.com>, >> <austinrock@eircom.net>, <margaretlj@eircom.net>, <fauxdk@yahoo.com>, >> <jahansen@brigadoon.net>, <rhite@netwalk.com>, <JuliaFWood@aol.com>, >> <ndaven@frontiernet.net> >>CC: <leahw@familytreedna.com> >>Subject: Re: New DNA project proposal >>Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:36:57 -0500 >> >>Dear Catherine, >> >>I thank you for your response and take your comments to heart. I agree that >>it may prove difficult to locate individuals whose ancestry can be traced >>to 17th century sources. However, if the time-frame of the study were >>limited to the 19th century, for example, would the situation improve >>significantly? Certainly the population base in the 19th century is larger, >>and more persons may be able to trace ancestry to, say, an 1861 census. But >>would the study then reflect a period sufficiently remote from the present >>that the resulting map would differ substantially from a map based on a >>purely modern sampling. Obviously some kind of compromise is necessary, but >>in what direction? >> >>At the other extreme, a pan-British Isles project could simply draw on >>membership from existing geographical (i.e., county based) projects and >>surnames, without any other restriction as to membership. Maybe this is the >>best way to begin, as refinements could be added later when membership >>grows. The initial database of surnames would then include an earliest >>known ancestor (with date), and information about the ancestor's >>geographical situation (county, town or parish, townland, etc.). It would >>be something of a patchwork, but it would not have the built-in restriction >>on growth that the 17th century project might face. >> >>In any event, I believe that a vital part of the project would be to ensure >>that access is provided through the project to such censuses and other >>genealogical sources as do exist, whether by external links or by >>incorporating these sources into the project's own website. Perhaps a lot >>of work, but this is going to be a long-term project, and if people are >>willing to chip in... >> >>As a start, what if we encourage the creation of county and regional >>projects for all the British Isles? The administrators could then >>coordinate their project work with the aim of building a DNA map, and >>engage in active recruitment to bring in more counties and more surnames >>for each county. >> >>Sincerely, >>Roy Keys >> >> >> > > > >

Dear Listers: Advance notice has been given that Rootsweb will be down for 6 hours from late tonight to tomorrow. Details as listed at http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com/ are below. Kind Regards, Lauren List Admin RootsWeb servers being relocated: 2006-01-18 Overnight Wednesday into Thursday, most RootsWeb's services, including here at the HelpDesk, will be down/stopped/off-line while we relocate servers. RootsWeb's Message Boards and World Connect will be available as they have already been relocated. Please bookmark those two sites now, if you haven't already. Alternatively please have a look around our sister site Ancestry. E-mail bound for RootsWeb should be held by your ISP automatically until our servers are back online and ready to receive email again. If an e-mail does bounce back to you, please hold off sending the mail for a period of six hours. Noting that this will include communications to and from all RootsWeb addresses and staff. The time scheduled for the servers to be off: Utah: Thursday 19th January from midnight until 6am (MST). This translates to the starting time of : USA & Canada Thu 2am EST, 1am CST, Wed 11pm PST UK/GMT 7am NZ 8pm Aus 6pm AEDT. (all Thursday)

Dear All: Looks like an interesting proposition for anyone with MtDNA results. John A Hansne -----Original Message----- From: David Whyte [mailto:davidwhyte@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 1:44 PM To: GENEALOGY-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: New mtDNA Analysis Products - looking for feedback Hello all, I am looking for volunteers to provide some feedback for several products related to mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) analysis. We currently provide DNA analysis in support of medical oncology, and we are now developing a new line of services in molecular genealogy. I would appreciate your insights about what would be of interest to the genealogical community. In addition to mtDNA sequencing, we will provide several unique products, including: 1) genomic map of mtDNA with customer's polymorphisms (for full length sequence, this is a circular genetic map showing coding genes, D-loop, etc) 2) table of customer's polymorphisms, showing global frequency and region of mt genome they occur, 3) phylogenetic tree from Mitochondrial Eve to current haplogroups, highlighted to show the customer's lineage, 4) map of world mtDNA migrations 5) map of world showing modern mtDNA haplogroup prevalence as "genograms" over continents. I have examples of all of these on a single PDF poster of 500 kb that can be viewed with Acrobat. Please email me if you are willing to give some feedback. We will send a color version of the world map showing mtDNA prevalence as a "thank you". Regards, Dave David Whyte, Ph.D. Argus Biosciences dwhyte@argusbio.com davidwhyte@comcast.net ______________________________

I tried to contact dnaclans@brigadoon.net off-list but was thwarted by the malfunctioning spam blocker.

John: I did get your message and have responded directly. We were moving the domain ( Brigadoon.net) to another server ( bigger, faster, dedicated etc) and the techs got the email program messed up. It was out of service for 1.5 days. Needless to say, we are still pretty angry ( 22 domains in total) and still not all working correctly. Best Regards John A Hansen -----Original Message----- From: John German [mailto:german@jarman.net] Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 10:33 AM To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Access request - please I tried to contact dnaclans@brigadoon.net off-list but was thwarted by the malfunctioning spam blocker. ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== All posts to this list are archived and cannot be edited from: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/SCOT-DNA/ Please bear this in mind if you are considering posting anything of a sensitive nature re your personal DNA. ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta rgetid=5429

There is a record on IGI for a Daniel Robins (parents Richard/Mary), born 1627 Blair Atholl, Perth, died after 13 June 1714; did you enter the record or is Blair Atholl a possible lead, and would the http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=551&560 website help track a Daniel Robinson? Derek Ham ----- Original Message ----- From: "John German" <german@jarman.net> To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: [SCOT-DNA] ROBINS or ROBINSON? > I'm researching some of the likely descendants of Daniel ROBINS who, > according to one old Bible record made about 1770, was born in Scotland > about 1627, son of Richard and Mary. He died 1714 in New Jersey. There is > some evidence in New Haven, Connecticut, that he was a ROBINSON before his > move to New Jersey; and some take a leap of faith that he was the Scot > prisoner Daniel ROBINSON sold in New England in 1752. > > The Y chromosome tests show the modal R1b results with these exceptions: > > DYS393=12 > DYS391=10 > DYS458=19 > YCAii=18/23 > > My problem (besides the ROBINS vs ROBINSON issues) is I have no idea where > to start looking in Scotland for Daniel or Richard and Mary. > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > Per agreement with Rootsweb, there can be no marketing messsages > for any laboratory. No specific costs can be stated on list. > These questions can be responded to off list. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

I didn't enter the IGI record and I am very skeptical of it. Thanks for the link! :o) Derek Ham wrote: > > There is a record on IGI for a Daniel Robins (parents Richard/Mary), > born 1627 Blair Atholl, Perth, died after 13 June 1714; did you enter > the record or is Blair Atholl a possible lead, and would the > http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=551&560 > website help track a Daniel Robinson? > > Derek Ham > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John German" <german@jarman.net> > To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 4:37 PM > Subject: [SCOT-DNA] ROBINS or ROBINSON? > > >> I'm researching some of the likely descendants of Daniel ROBINS who, >> according to one old Bible record made about 1770, was born in >> Scotland about 1627, son of Richard and Mary. He died 1714 in New >> Jersey. There is some evidence in New Haven, Connecticut, that he was >> a ROBINSON before his move to New Jersey; and some take a leap of >> faith that he was the Scot prisoner Daniel ROBINSON sold in New >> England in 1752. >> >> The Y chromosome tests show the modal R1b results with these exceptions: >> >> DYS393=12 >> DYS391=10 >> DYS458=19 >> YCAii=18/23 >> >> My problem (besides the ROBINS vs ROBINSON issues) is I have no idea >> where to start looking in Scotland for Daniel or Richard and Mary. >> >> >> ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== >> Per agreement with Rootsweb, there can be no marketing messsages >> for any laboratory. No specific costs can be stated on list. >> These questions can be responded to off list. >> >> ============================== >> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the >> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >> >> > > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > Per agreement with Rootsweb, there can be no marketing messsages > for any laboratory. No specific costs can be stated on list. > These questions can be responded to off list. > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx > >

I'm researching some of the likely descendants of Daniel ROBINS who, according to one old Bible record made about 1770, was born in Scotland about 1627, son of Richard and Mary. He died 1714 in New Jersey. There is some evidence in New Haven, Connecticut, that he was a ROBINSON before his move to New Jersey; and some take a leap of faith that he was the Scot prisoner Daniel ROBINSON sold in New England in 1752. The Y chromosome tests show the modal R1b results with these exceptions: DYS393=12 DYS391=10 DYS458=19 YCAii=18/23 My problem (besides the ROBINS vs ROBINSON issues) is I have no idea where to start looking in Scotland for Daniel or Richard and Mary.

Just wanted to say: (Afrikaans) - Ges�ende Kersfees (African - (Eritrean) Tigrinja) - REHUS-BEAL-LEDEATs (Albanian) - Gezuar Krishtlindjet (Arabic) - Milad Saeed wa Sanaa Mubarakah (Argentine) - Feliz Navidad Y Un Prospero Ano Nuevo (Armenian) - Shenoraavor Nor Dari yev Pari Gaghand (Azeri-Azerbaijan) - Tezze Iliniz Yahsi Olsun (Brazilian) - Feliz Natal e Prospero Ano Novo (Bulgarian) - Chestita Koleda (Czech Republic) - Vesele Vanoce (Chinese - Cantonese) - Gun Tso Sun Tan'Gung Haw Sun Sing Dan Fai Lok (Chinese - Mandarin) - Kung His Hsin Nien bing Chu Shen Tan (Croatian) - Sretan Bozic (Czech) - Prejeme Vam Vesele Vanoce a stastny Novy Rok (Danish) - Glaedelig Jul (Dutch) - Vrolijk Kerstfeest en een Gelukkig Nieuwjaar (Eritrean) - REHUS-BEAL-LEDEAT (Estonian) - Roomsaid Joulupuhi ja Head Uut Aastat (Amharic) - Melkam Yegena Beaal (Filipinos) - Maligayang Pasko (French) - Joyeux No�l et heureuse ann�e (German) - Frohe Weihnachten (Greek) - Kala Christougena (Hawaiian) - Mele Kalikimaka (Hebrew) - Mo'adim Lesimkha (Hindi) - Shubh Christmas (Hungarian) - Kellemes Karacsonyi unnepeket (Icelandic) - Gledileg jol og farsaelt komandi ar (Indonesia) - Selamat Hari Natal (Iraqi) - Idah Saidan Wa Sanah Jadidah (Irish) - Nollaig Shona Duit (Italian) - Buon Natale e Felice Anno Nuovo (Japanese) - Shinnen omedeto. Kurisumasu Omedeto. (Korean) - Chuk Sung Tan (Latvian) - Priecigus Ziemas Svetkus un Laimigu Jauno Gadu. (Lithuanian) - Linksmu Kaledu (Danish) - Gledlig jul og godt Nytt Aar. (Norwegian) - God Jul Og Godt Nytt Aar (Philippines) - Maligayang Pasko at Manigong Bagong Taon (Polish) - Wesolych Swiat Bozego Narodzenia (Portuguese) - Boas Festas (Romanian) - Craciun Fericit (Russian) - S prazdnikom Rozdestva Hristova i s Novim Godom (Samoan) - La Maunia Le Kilisimasi Ma Le Tausaga Fou. (Serbian) - Hristos se rodi (Serb-Croatian) - Sretam Bozic. Vesela Nova Godina. (Slovakian) - Vesele vianoce (Slovene) - Vesele bozicne praznike in srecno Novo leto (Spanish) - Feliz Navidad (Swedish) - God Jul Och Gott Nytt �r! (Tagalog) - Maligayang Pasko. Masaganang Bagong Taon. (Turkish) - Noeliniz Ve Yeni Yiliniz Kutlu Olsun (Vietnamese) - Mung Le Giang Sinh. Cung Chuc Tan Nien. (Ukrainian) - Srozhdestvom Kristovym (Welsh) - Nadolig Llawen (Yugoslavian) - Cestitamo Bozic In other words: Wishing you a very merry Christmas and a happy new year hdpth@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. a thought to ponder ... Acts 1:8 a message to the outer most parts ...

Hi John I contacted the SMGF and received a reply to this statement made recently-- QUOTE from recent postings Re Derek and Bruce You don't actually need to test commercially to learn your results first, you can find your results by searching on surname, then find your pedigree and then methodically going through the range of possible alleles to locate your results. It is painstaking, but possible. If you get your results from a commercial company, there is little reason to do SMGF except to get the 8 additional markers that FTDNA does not provide. SMGF does not provide anything that their commercial branches, Gene Tree and Relative Genetics or Heritage DNA provide, at least in their public database. ~~~~~~~~~~~ REPLY from SMGF Dear Frank, The comment is correct. However, you have to also consider that it might take up to 6-8 months before your genetic and genealogical data is finally added to our database (commercial laboratories will return your profile within 4-6 weeks). If you are not in a hurry and want to save few bucks, perhaps it is worth considering participating in our study. My suggestion is that you would participate in our study regardless of what other genetic testing choices you are going to make. It is free and you are giving others the opportunity to learn about their connections with your ancestors, while maintaining your privacy. Additionally, everyone participating in our study will receive a coupon for a discounted Ycs or mtDNA test through Relative Genetics ($95 for either a 26 Ycs markers or mtDNA HVR1). Sincerely, Ugo A. Perego, MS Operations and Sample Collections ~~~~~~~~~ Dear Derek & Bruce: I think there could be a small misunderstanding taking place here. Sorenson is building a huge database for future analysis ( and ties back to the genealogy information submitted) and is not providing any information to contributors. SMGF does not return any results to the contributors. See the posting by Frank of yesterday and see: http://smgf.org/participation.html Best Regards John A Hansen -----Original Message----- From: Derek Ham [mailto:djham@btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 3:15 AM To: SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] test kit Bruce I did the same with SMGF (who required minimum of 5 generations paper trail backup), 3 months ago, and was wondering what was happening on the results. Thanks for giving me a ballpark estimate on timing. Even though I had undertaken the FTDNA 37-marker test I was interested in checking the results against an independent FREE analysis as well as adding one or two new markers. When you mention 'rest of the results', what do they include? Derek ----- Original Message ----- From: <bbairdsr@aol.com> To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:54 PM Subject: Re: [SCOT-DNA] test kit Being the thrifty Scot I am, I preferred to take the 39 marker test that SMGF provides for FREE. I didn't mind waiting 11 months before most of my results were available and I expect the rest of the results by March 2006. . Bruce Baird

Russ Though I'm not linked to any Cooper, genealogically or genetically, I have taken interest in surname derivations regarding my own genealogy. There is a volume entitled "The Surnames of Scotland" by George F.Black (ISBN 1 874744831), considered by many to be the 'bible' or at least a starting point for surname studies. I use it, and other references, as a starting point because they often refer to many names as diminuative/petnames or occupational names, but with vague reason - for instance, my paternal name is Kidd, and it has been referred to as depicting "a seller of faggots", when it is just as likely that someone with surname Kidd/Kydd became known as the local faggott seller. Similarly, in reference a link with 'young goats' is just as obscure - maybe there was a goat herder who reared goats in profusion or had a character of frisky but gentle disposition; or, possibly, the name for a young goat had evolved from a farming family, by name of Kid, who already specialised in goat rearing. Several instances are 'chicken and egg' situations and none of it made much sense to me. It may well be that common trades are the seeds of surnames (eg Smith), but we should be cautious of that bandwagon. The subject matter does bear deeper investigation, especially when you realise many assume surnames began with the Norman invasion of 1066 - the Romans had a great naming system 1000 yrs earlier (http://www.answers.com/topic/roman-naming-convention?hl=aurelii), and many local Britons were Romanized, being directly exposed to Roman culture from 43-409 AD. When the Romans left Britain, the population was ripe for the adoption of surnames in the light of their well-organised predecessors. That organisation continued into Roman Catholicism and when priests/bishops travelled from Rome to spread Christianity to the Anglo-Saxon and Celtic pagan world following Anglo-Saxon settlement. Christianity had already spread through Roman Britain and Ireland, and the Celtic monastic version sprang from Northern Ireland and then Scotti Dalriada (based on Iona). King Oswald, many years exiled on Iona, brought Celtic Christianity to Lindisfarne and introduced Anglo-Saxon priests to the more ascetic Celtic version. Wholesale conversions occurred during that period and many surnames sprang out of the names of monks that administered baptism eg Aidan, Colman, Patrick, Cuthbert, Addie (from Adda), Beattie/Beatty (from Betti) and Kidd/Kydd (from Cedd). The work (~650 AD) of Cedd, Betti, Adda and Ceadd (pronounced Chad, younger brother of Cedd, pronounced Kedd) is well documented by Bede and many placenames trace the path of their mission. The letter 'K' was rarely used in Old English and, to bilingual Romanized Britons (Brythonic and Latin), the ecclesiastical language of monks (Latin) would have been easily understood. Many farmsteads became self-adopted Christian 'chapels', exempt from secular duties (eg taxation, some think as an early tax dodge), hence the Mercian-Anglian placenames Kedington, Keddington, Coddington, Cuddington, Kiddington, Kidlington, Caddington, Kidderminster (pronounced according to local dialect). The surnames simply evolved in the Roman style of adoption of the name of a cult (nomen gentile), and this later became the recognised family name (cognomen). I only give this as an example of misplaced interpretation of surname origin - surnames are assumed to begin ~1100 AD only because that's when documentation begins. Genetic studies (exact matches with different surnames) suggested my geographical origins might be the Bernician Borders, and that's where my surname study also took me. The northern English Brigantes tribe had a sub-group called the Textoverdi, whose territory was north of the eastern end of Hadrians Wall, in Velantia province of Roman Britain. They worshipped the proto-Celtic goddess Satiada (goddess of saturation ie water, springs, rain etc). Pope Gregory the Great (601 AD) had decreed, regarding the use (ie baptism) of local pagan temples/wells: "In this way, we hope that the people, seeing that their temples are not destroyed, may abandon their error and, flocking more readily to their accustomed resorts, may come to know and adore the true God" Bede relates, "So great is said to have been the fervour of the faith of the Northumbrians, and their longing for the washing of salvation, that once when Paulinus came to the king and queen in their royal palace at Yeavering, he spent thirty six days there occupied in the task of catechizing and baptizing. During these times, from morning till evening, he did nothing else but instruct the crowds that flocked to him from every village and district in the teaching of Christ. When they had received instruction he washed them in the waters of regeneration in the river Glen." Bearing this example in mind, I quote verbatum from George Black : COOPER, Coupar, Couper, Cowper. This surname occurs in one form or another in nearly every county of Scotland. The name was in most cases derived from Cupar in Fife, but the occupation of 'cooper' has also contributed to its origin.The earliest record of the name is territorial, when dominus Salomone de Cupir appears as a charter witness in 1245. The name, also, is common in early Fife records from the 13th to 15th century, additional evidence of its local origin. An instance pointing to the occupation as the source of the name occurs in 1329 when payment to "Alanus Cuparius" (ie the "cooper") is recorded. John Cupar held land in Aberdeen, 1281, Christian Cowper who held lands in Ravenysden near Berwick in 1275 may have been a relative of Symon Coupare of Berwickshire who rendered homage in 1296. Michael Couper was tenant in Vill de Butyll,1376, and William Coupare had a tenement in Irvine, 1426. Thomas de Cupro, canon of the church of St Andrews, 1406, Patrick Culpar (the 'l' is silent), witness in Aberdeen, 1468, appears in 1477 as Cowlpar and his wife as Cowlper. Finla Couper in Belnakeill, Atholl, was fined for resetting outlawed Macgregors, 1613. Patrick Cowper in Tilliemad, 1634, and Helen Copper in Keltie, 1672 (Dunblane). William Cowper, the poet, writing to Mrs Courtenay, one of his friends, says: "While Pitcairne whistles for his family estate in Fifeshire, he will do well if he will sound a few notes for me. I am originaly of the same shire, and a family of my name is still there". Coupar 1479, Couppar 1662, Cowpar 1500, Cowpare 1512, Cuper 1286. Kidd has many surname variants in the Northumbria-Roxburgh area, and it is likely that the Norman invasion displaced many of the local families - like the Beatties, they aligned with Malcolm/Margaret against the invasion, settling in Fife and Dundee. Later displacements arose from Border dispersals of the 16th/17th century. Another point I would like to make is that the Romans employed ancilliaries from many regions, including Sarmatians. Your haplotypes may originate from pre-Norman continental Europe invaders (Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Dane), who were later displaced by the Normans. Regards Derek Ham ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Cooper" <rcoop7255@adelphia.net> To: <SCOT-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:41 AM Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Cooper DNA Project at FTDNA > We have watched the increasing discourse of trying to find Scottish > locations with DNA and hopefully with genealogy paper trails. Coopers we > are not a Clan but an occupation beginning. However in FTDNA, Coopers have > 130 donors in a well run Cooper Project where results are grouped by > matches and include excellent paper trails in the USA also reported. > Getting across the Pond has been difficult. Our Coopers are very probably > Anglo-Scot-Irish, because of the Border Wars Dollarhide speaks of in his > books. Many Border people moved back and forth over the border to avoid > the many king's wars. Thus surname beginning locations are more difficult > to nail down. > Currently we have three Cooper lineages with good matches which > start with Haplogroup J [J is England and J1 is Scotland], followed by > Alleles of 12, 23, 14, 10, 15, etc. matches. We are a distinct group with > these marker matches appearing to originate in England. However two of our > lines begin in the USA in Salem, Washington Co., NY in a > Scotch/Scotch-Irish Presbyterian Covenanter ssettlement beginning in 1764. > Our family marriages are with Hamilton, Crawford, McFadden, McFarland, > McEachron, Creighton, Hunter, Hanna, Harsha, McGilvra, Harrison, Wilson > and we are connected with the Duguids and Coopers of Aberdeenshire. > Supposedly we came from Cootehill, Co. Cavan, N. IRE, but this was a > stopping off place probably only for about 10 to 20 years on a Plantation, > but from originally both Scotland and England. For my John [1748-1803] and > apparently his brother George [abt 1753-Abt 1825], they could come from > Aberdeenshire or maybe Northumberland, as can be noted in the IGI. Then > closely associated [living next to each other and signing family documents > for land, wills, etc.] is a Joseph Cooper [1733-1819], who came from > England to Ireland and then to Salem. For the John and George lines we > have definite DNA matches, but also with a James from probably England to > NJ. We are requesting a Joseph Cooper descendant to donate a DNA sample to > FTDNA soon, to help us find our roots. These are focused DNA efforts. > But we are very interested in those of you, who we could communicate > with for info such as the Crawfords. My 4th GG Archi [Harrison > wife}Crawford came from Bruteshire and his father John [Wilson wife] from > Renfrewshire. It is this type of info we would like to furnish to various > surnames listed above to see if we can find some paper trails that > connect. In fact the Crawfords and the Duguids came to Steuben Co., IN > with the Coopers and have lived there together. > Can we have some correspondence, because this kind of cooperation > can usually payoff.? We placed our marker data in the SMGF and only got 7 > out of 19 marker matches, the highest and the related paper trails were > from the Ancestral File, which are very poor, something known from long > ago. > Unfortunately we leave tomorrow for Rochester and Boston for > Christmas Holidays, but will be back December 29th where in we will be > fully involved corresponding. > > Russ Cooper [216-397-1195 or cell phone 216-224-3572] > 2755 Derbyshire Road > Cleveland Heights, OH 44106 > Founder of NorthEast-Ohio - Computer-Aided-Genealogy ten years ago. Go to > our Website <NEOCAG.NET> > > > ==== SCOT-DNA Mailing List ==== > Have questions about lab cost? Contact the Project Manager, > John A. Hansen, directly at dnaclans@brigadoon.net and he will provide a > private answer. > Want to join the Project? Visit: > http://www.ftdna.com/surname_det.asp?group=Scottish-Clans&projecttype=G > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > >

We have watched the increasing discourse of trying to find Scottish locations with DNA and hopefully with genealogy paper trails. Coopers we are not a Clan but an occupation beginning. However in FTDNA, Coopers have 130 donors in a well run Cooper Project where results are grouped by matches and include excellent paper trails in the USA also reported. Getting across the Pond has been difficult. Our Coopers are very probably Anglo-Scot-Irish, because of the Border Wars Dollarhide speaks of in his books. Many Border people moved back and forth over the border to avoid the many king's wars. Thus surname beginning locations are more difficult to nail down. Currently we have three Cooper lineages with good matches which start with Haplogroup J [J is England and J1 is Scotland], followed by Alleles of 12, 23, 14, 10, 15, etc. matches. We are a distinct group with these marker matches appearing to originate in England. However two of our lines begin in the USA in Salem, Washington Co., NY in a Scotch/Scotch-Irish Presbyterian Covenanter ssettlement beginning in 1764. Our family marriages are with Hamilton, Crawford, McFadden, McFarland, McEachron, Creighton, Hunter, Hanna, Harsha, McGilvra, Harrison, Wilson and we are connected with the Duguids and Coopers of Aberdeenshire. Supposedly we came from Cootehill, Co. Cavan, N. IRE, but this was a stopping off place probably only for about 10 to 20 years on a Plantation, but from originally both Scotland and England. For my John [1748-1803] and apparently his brother George [abt 1753-Abt 1825], they could come from Aberdeenshire or maybe Northumberland, as can be noted in the IGI. Then closely associated [living next to each other and signing family documents for land, wills, etc.] is a Joseph Cooper [1733-1819], who came from England to Ireland and then to Salem. For the John and George lines we have definite DNA matches, but also with a James from probably England to NJ. We are requesting a Joseph Cooper descendant to donate a DNA sample to FTDNA soon, to help us find our roots. These are focused DNA efforts. But we are very interested in those of you, who we could communicate with for info such as the Crawfords. My 4th GG Archi [Harrison wife}Crawford came from Bruteshire and his father John [Wilson wife] from Renfrewshire. It is this type of info we would like to furnish to various surnames listed above to see if we can find some paper trails that connect. In fact the Crawfords and the Duguids came to Steuben Co., IN with the Coopers and have lived there together. Can we have some correspondence, because this kind of cooperation can usually payoff.? We placed our marker data in the SMGF and only got 7 out of 19 marker matches, the highest and the related paper trails were from the Ancestral File, which are very poor, something known from long ago. Unfortunately we leave tomorrow for Rochester and Boston for Christmas Holidays, but will be back December 29th where in we will be fully involved corresponding. Russ Cooper [216-397-1195 or cell phone 216-224-3572] 2755 Derbyshire Road Cleveland Heights, OH 44106 Founder of NorthEast-Ohio - Computer-Aided-Genealogy ten years ago. Go to our Website <NEOCAG.NET>