I was only following this thread with mild interest when I realized that I have a similar situation. My 2G Grandfather Carl Hinrich Wilhelm Hoffmann was born in 1803 in Testorf, Holstein, to Dorothea Elisabeth Wenstorf, who said, at her son's baptism at the Lutheran Church in Hansuehn, Holstein, that the father's name was Johann Friedrich Hoffmann of Eutin, Holstein. When the son was married in Eutin, Holstein in 1830 he was named as "Carl Hinrich Wilhelm Hoffmann, illegitimate son of the unmarried Dorothea Elisabeth Wentorf." The son was known his entire life as Carl Hoffmann during his time in Holstein, 2 marriages and emigration to the US. So this is an example of the child carrying his father's surname when the father and mother were clearly not married. I am not aware that the mother ever married but I just now realize that I may not have looked into the possibility that the mother and father eventually married. I have not been able to identify the father further although I have found the parents of the mother. Earl Hoffman (maybe?) New Mexico ============ On May 10, 2012, at 4:34 AM, Bob wrote: > Hello Gail, > > Thanks for your response. I understand your problem in identifying your > # ? g'grandfather. That makes me wonder even more at the fact that my > WENDEL (WETZEL) female ancestor had her illegitimate son take his > father's name. I think that's unusual. From what I can find there were > several ARMBRUST residents in the area at the time too so I'm leaning > toward the possibility of one of them being his father. There seem to > be no official records of this family further back than the 1803 census, > at least none that I can find. I don't know where to look for parish > records and cannot afford a professional to help with a local search. > Perhaps someone in this group could help with information of a local > parish to whom I can write. I'm quite sure it would be a non Catholic > parish as my family are not of that faith. I'm at a dead end here so > any lead at all will worth investigating. > > This item is at the top of my "bucket list". :) > > Thanks again, > > Bob Armbrust > > Florida, USA > > > On 5/9/12 11:07 PM, Gail Kilgore wrote: >> I have the same situation. Only my ? g grandfather took his mother's >> maiden name as he couldn't use the name of his father.. church records call >> him a "Sailor in the North Sea". So our Nottelmann line is not really >> Nottelmann but Sailor of the North Sea... there will be no DNA on that line >> proving Nottelmann heritage. >> >> Gail >> >> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Bob<HDBiker1@cfl.rr.com> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I'm new to this group. >>> >>> I'm looking for any information for family No. 315 in the 1803 Itzehoe >>> census. >>> >>> Margarethe WENDEL (WETZEL) dob 1767 Itzehoe, GR (my 4th g'grandmother) >>> >>> her son illegitimate son Johann Matthias Anton ARMBRUST dob 1789 >>> Itzehoe, GR (my 3rd g'grandfather) >>> >>> her daughter Margarethe DAMMANN dob 1802 Itzehoe, GR (his 1/2 sister) >>> >>> her husband Heinrich DAMMANN dob 1757 Itzehoe, GR (??? not sure) (his >>> stepfather) >>> >>> I am particularly interested in finding the father of Matthias. Is it >>> unusual that an unmarried woman of that era would have her illegitimate >>> son take the father's name ? Perhaps she and Matthias' father married >>> later but before she married DAMMANN ? Perhaps she and the father lived >>> as man and wife if the landowner refused permission for her to marry ? >>> >>> Any information anyone can help with at all will be most appreciated. >>> >>> I have Matthias' descendants to present day if that's of help to anyone. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Bob ARMBRUST >>> >>> Port Orange, FL USA

I'm told that in serfdom couples did from time to time live as a family if the landowner would not grant permission for marriage. In that case sometimes the child was given the father's name or I'm told that sometimes there was an intention to marry after the birth of the child and the child would take the father's name. That may have been the case in my instance and perhaps yours. On 5/10/12 10:24 AM, Earl Hoffman wrote: > I was only following this thread with mild interest when I realized that I have a similar situation. > > My 2G Grandfather Carl Hinrich Wilhelm Hoffmann was born in 1803 in Testorf, Holstein, to Dorothea Elisabeth Wenstorf, who said, at her son's baptism at the Lutheran Church in Hansuehn, Holstein, that the father's name was Johann Friedrich Hoffmann of Eutin, Holstein. When the son was married in Eutin, Holstein in 1830 he was named as "Carl Hinrich Wilhelm Hoffmann, illegitimate son of the unmarried > Dorothea Elisabeth Wentorf." The son was known his entire life as Carl Hoffmann during his time in Holstein, 2 marriages and emigration to the US. > > So this is an example of the child carrying his father's surname when the father and mother were clearly not married. I am not aware that the mother ever married but I just now realize that I may not have looked into the possibility that the mother and father eventually married. I have not been able to identify the father further although I have found the parents of the mother. > > Earl Hoffman (maybe?) > New Mexico > > ============ > > On May 10, 2012, at 4:34 AM, Bob wrote: > >> Hello Gail, >> >> Thanks for your response. I understand your problem in identifying your >> # ? g'grandfather. That makes me wonder even more at the fact that my >> WENDEL (WETZEL) female ancestor had her illegitimate son take his >> father's name. I think that's unusual. From what I can find there were >> several ARMBRUST residents in the area at the time too so I'm leaning >> toward the possibility of one of them being his father. There seem to >> be no official records of this family further back than the 1803 census, >> at least none that I can find. I don't know where to look for parish >> records and cannot afford a professional to help with a local search. >> Perhaps someone in this group could help with information of a local >> parish to whom I can write. I'm quite sure it would be a non Catholic >> parish as my family are not of that faith. I'm at a dead end here so >> any lead at all will worth investigating. >> >> This item is at the top of my "bucket list". :) >> >> Thanks again, >> >> Bob Armbrust >> >> Florida, USA >> >> >> On 5/9/12 11:07 PM, Gail Kilgore wrote: >>> I have the same situation. Only my ? g grandfather took his mother's >>> maiden name as he couldn't use the name of his father.. church records call >>> him a "Sailor in the North Sea". So our Nottelmann line is not really >>> Nottelmann but Sailor of the North Sea... there will be no DNA on that line >>> proving Nottelmann heritage. >>> >>> Gail >>> >>> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Bob<HDBiker1@cfl.rr.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> I'm new to this group. >>>> >>>> I'm looking for any information for family No. 315 in the 1803 Itzehoe >>>> census. >>>> >>>> Margarethe WENDEL (WETZEL) dob 1767 Itzehoe, GR (my 4th g'grandmother) >>>> >>>> her son illegitimate son Johann Matthias Anton ARMBRUST dob 1789 >>>> Itzehoe, GR (my 3rd g'grandfather) >>>> >>>> her daughter Margarethe DAMMANN dob 1802 Itzehoe, GR (his 1/2 sister) >>>> >>>> her husband Heinrich DAMMANN dob 1757 Itzehoe, GR (??? not sure) (his >>>> stepfather) >>>> >>>> I am particularly interested in finding the father of Matthias. Is it >>>> unusual that an unmarried woman of that era would have her illegitimate >>>> son take the father's name ? Perhaps she and Matthias' father married >>>> later but before she married DAMMANN ? Perhaps she and the father lived >>>> as man and wife if the landowner refused permission for her to marry ? >>>> >>>> Any information anyone can help with at all will be most appreciated. >>>> >>>> I have Matthias' descendants to present day if that's of help to anyone. >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> Bob ARMBRUST >>>> >>>> Port Orange, FL USA > > ==== SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Technical Terms and Rules of the S-H-ROOTS: > http://www.genealogy-sh.com/faq-sh-roots/index.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >