Marsha, I agree with Joyce. Example.....Hinshaw entry under the JAY family states: 1790, 6, 26 William [Jay], Jr. dis. Actual record states: The Preparative [meeting] informs this meeting that William Jay Jr. hath been guilty of fornication ....it goes on to state that William would not apologize for his actions and that he was disowned. These kinds of events are significant because during this period, the act of fornication might only came to light with the appearance of a pregnant female. Because the womens minutes of the Bush River MM are not available for this time period, it is difficult to know if William Jays partner was Quaker but it can be assumed that perhaps a child was the end product of this act. While the fate of this partnership is unknown, the original record alerts the researcher to the fact that this particular William Jay could have most certainly been married prior to his first recorded marriage in 1806 at the ripe old age 43. Vince King -----Original Message----- From: sc-bushriverquakers-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sc-bushriverquakers-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Joyce Bowman Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 4:20 PM To: sc-bushriverquakers@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SC-BUSHRIVERQUAKERS] Quaker dis mou etc Marsha--What that librarian at Guilford told you ("almost never anything in the original that Hinshaw & cohorts did not transcribe") is just not true. Back in the 20's when Hinshaw made the arrangement, with the Meetings directly or with Guilford, I'm not sure, to transcribe the minutes, they agreed, but only on the condition that nothing would be transcribed that could be considered sensitive or derogatory. In my own family, I know of 3 instances where info of interest was in the original minutes, but was not transcribed. A cousin of mine, Gordon Bowles, couldn't understand why 2 of our families were not in the records (Pasquotank mm I assume). When he went back to the original records, he found both families listed, in their entirety but each of those listings were marked thru with a big "X" and had not been transcribed--with no explanation for the marking out! While looking for this, he also found something of interest that we hadn't known to look for. An ancestor of ours at Pasquotank Mtg, Ephraim Overman m. Sarah Belman in 1708. They had 7 children and then he died. In 1734 Sarah Belman Overman re-married--to Nathaniel Martin. Four years later (1738) there is a note "Nathaniel Martin disowned"--with no explanation. My cousin, Gordon, from the original minutes found what had happened. Sarah (Belman) Martin had gone to the Friends' Colony in Opecking, VA to visit her married daughter, and while she was gone, her husband, Nathaniel Martin got the young housekeeper pregnant. Sarah then asked for a permanent transfer of her membership to her daughter's home, which the mtg took a while to consider, since it was unheard of for a woman to transfer her membership without her husband. However, they finally agreed and she did move permanently to her daughter's home. Not in the Meeting records I don't think, but from some other source, I understand Gordon found evidence that Nathaniel Martin had then married the younger woman--though I don't know that Sarah ever officially got a divorce! On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 2:20 PM, marsha moses <mosesm@earthlink.net> wrote: > I just ordered the microfilm of the Cane Creek MM (North Carolina) original minutes. I have been told by librarians at Guilford College Hege library that there is almost never anything in the original that Hinshaw and his cohorts did not transcribe....however, "hope spring eternal" .....I decided that I wanted to read for myself what was said when Abigail Moore was dis mou at Cane Creek and also her brother Mordecai Moore (my 6-gr-grandrather) when he was dis for mou. > > While I was on the LDS FHL site, I also ordered > > film #255078 > > Bush River Monthly Meeting of Friends > Worth, Laura D, Hinshaw, William Wade, 1867-1947, Society of Friends. Bush River Monthly Meeting (South Carolina), Society of Friends. Cane Creek Monthly Meeting (Union County, South Carolina), Society of Friends. Piney Grove Monthly Meeting (South Carolina), Society of Friends. Wrightborough Monthly Meeting (Georgia) > > This title came up when I used Cane Creek as my Keyword in the Beta version of the LDS library. It reminds me of how interconnected the MM and areas in NC, SC, and Wrightsboro were in the time period. I don't expect to read anything new....but as I said before.....hope spring eternal. marsha moses > > >> I was curious about the nature of those "condemnation" proceedings. >> E.g., did they have to grovel and produce tearful apologies for >> wrongdoing? That doesn't seem very Quaker-like, since the community was >> well aware that human beings are not prone to 100% perfection of >> behavior, even when they aspire to it. I looked around until I found a >> reference for the exact wording of a letter seeking re-admission. >> Search on <"Abraham Woodward" peace Quakers> to locate his biography, >> which contains the wording of two letters re condemnation of behavior, >> one unsuccessful and the second one successful. It was necessary to >> state exactly what one had done in violation of community standards, >> i.e., acknowledge one's specific faults, and ask to be received in >> fellowship again. A generic "I'm sorry that I messed up" was >> insufficient. Nobody expected a promise that "I'll never do anything >> wrong again in my whole life," just a statement that you were aware of >> the nature of your previous failure to live up to group norms. The >> former member did not apologize for the marriage itself, or for >> continuing to live with the non-Quaker spouse, just for the fact of >> having contracted a marriage by a process "contrary to discipline". Two >> currently-active Quakers might also marry contrary to discipline, if >> they skipped the announcements at their MM's, or had a J.P. or a >> non-Quaker minister conduct the ceremony. Then each would acknowledge >> their specific faults to their meeting, and hope for the best. >> >> Harriet Imrey > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SC-BUSHRIVERQUAKERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Joyce Joyce Overman Bowman 7877 Beanblossom Circle Indianapolis, IN 46256-1637 (317) 849-0995 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SC-BUSHRIVERQUAKERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message