More than one route has been called the "Great Wagon Road" and even the "Carolina Road" at different places in different times. Depended on where people started from, where they were aiming for, and in which year. The "Great Wagon Road" usually refers to the "Great Valley Road" through the Shenandoah Valley of VA. When Joshua Fry and Peter Jefferson (father of Pres. Thomas) marked-it and mapped-it in 1751, they called it "The Great Road from the Yadkin River [NC] thro Virginia to Philadelphia", but noted that the going was pretty rough--for men on horseback--south of Great Lick (AKA Roanoke VA). They marked-it with two notches and a cross, but south-of-Roanoke had not been cleared for wagon-travel quite yet. The road had theoretically been cleared down to Salisbury NC by 1753. Bishop August Spangenberg and his Moravian settlers were headed down the road in 1752 to their new settlement in Bethabara [Winston-Salem] NC, went as far as Staunton VA, said "there the bad road began. It was up hill and down, and we had constantly to push the wagon, or hold it back by ropes that we fastened to the rear". His party left The Road (bad as it was) after reaching the Yadkin River, headed east towards current Winston-Salem "into the pathless forest". At Salisbury NC, the Roanoke VA connection ran into the older route called the "Upper Road" (the one that was cleared, after a fashion, by 1748 and went from Philadelphia via Alexandria and Fredericksburg VA through Hillsborough NC, down to Charlotte NC and later into backcountry SC). John Collins from Long Island (probably the Long Island in NY) tried that route in 1748 in order to get to Fredericksburgh Township in SC--the place that became Pine Tree/Camden SC, and the site of the later Quaker settlement, to which he was next-door. His petition for land mentioned "the great Expence and fatigue which he had been under for Twenty weeks by past in his Journey in Transporting his Family, Waggon, Plot [plow?], and Tools propos'g to make Wheat and Flour." He'd left 8 companion-families behind on the Atkin [Yadkin] and How [Haw] Rivers, and they were waiting for a report from him before deciding whether to brave the further trip into SC. That was 20 weeks on the "good" road that was supposedly wagon-negotiable by 1748. The path from Roanoke VA to the Yadkin River in NC hadn't been cleared by then, it took a while longer before there was a way to get from the Shenandoah Valley down into SC with a wagon. The Parke Rouse Jr. book, The Great Wagon Road (I like it), includes a map of the "Great Philadelphia Wagon Road and Wilderness Road" which shows a branching of routes at Rock Hill (York Co) SC, with an eastern branch going through Camden SC to Augusta GA, and a western branch going through Newberry SC, then to Augusta GA. The map includes no dates. Surveyor/mapmaker Henry Mouzon produced a map of the Carolinas in 1774, and it was considered the most reliable one of its time. The copy which Gen. George Washington carried in his saddlebag is at Mt. Vernon; Gen. Cornwallis carried one too (otherwise, nobody would have known where/how to find the next battle). Mouzon failed to notice a route from York Co SC to the site of Newberry SC, which leads one to wonder if there were a marked-road, or blazed-trail, at that time. The road south from Charlotte NC cut west from York Co SC (noted as "Path from the Cherokees") into TN, it intersected a trading-path to the south at roughly the site of Union SC. That north/south path ran parallel to the Broad River, crossed Second Creek and Cannon's Creek in the Newberry Co region, didn't get anywhere close to Bush River or the later town of Newberry. So how did the Quakers from PA and NC "get there"? The earliest Bush River Quaker settlers came from the Fredericksburgh (Camden SC) MM in ~1762, when there wasn't a community yet. They could take the road down from Camden to Friday's Ferry (across from Columbia SC), then another westward road that ran south of the Saluda River to just-across from the Bush River settlement. At some point, there must have been a more-direct route from Charlotte NC, or maybe Rock Hill SC, that was recalled as a portion of the "Great Wagon Road", or else the "Carolina Road", and went to Newberry SC. The 1774 Mouzon map didn't show one. The Bush River MM was organized in 1770. The people who lived in Camden could get to Newberry via local roads/trails or via the rivers. The new settlers from PA/NC before the spring of 1773 had to go to Charlestown first anyway, in order to petition for their land grants. The "Upper Road" (which also got called the "Great Wagon Road", but not the "Great Valley Road") was a better way to take a wagon from the Shenandoah Valley into SC. Not great, just better. You could get from NC to Camden SC to Charlestown that way, then take either a road or the rivers up to the Bush River settlement. To the best of my knowledge, I have no Bush River Quaker ancestors (just a few Swiss immigrants who owned land in the region). The various colonial SC documents say that the Quaker settlers were more-literate and more-successful than the majority of backcountry settlers. These were bright folks, who wouldn't have chosen the more-arduous migration path over the one less difficult for their families. The "Upper Road", from Salisbury NC to Charlotte NC to Camden SC to Charlestown SC was less-awful in the early 1770's than the Charlotte NC to Union SC extension of the "Carolina Road". The ruts in the Great Wagon Road near Newberry SC in the 1770's (or whenever) may have been made by people less travel-savvy than the Bush River Quakers, who probably did-their-homework about the best way to get from here to there. BTW, I generally use the term "Scots-Irish", no matter what has become common usage in U.S. genealogy. Just prior to landing in Glasgow in 1985, I was informed by the nice elderly lady sitting next to me that she hoped I would avoid the mistake that most American visitors make: I should remember that "Scotch is what we drink, Scots is who we are". I certainly didn't want to offend anybody while visiting that lovely country! ----- Original Message ----- From: "marsha moses" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [SC-BUSHRIVERQUAKERS] Roper in NC Audrey E Pool wrote: Are you speaking of the Great Wagon Road through the middle of VA? Weren't there two main migration "roads" (The Great Wagon...& The Wilderness Road) during a certain period of time from VA-PA and further up in the states? The Great Wagon Road had many names. We all "took" to calling it the Great Wagon Road from Philadelphia to what is now Roanoke Virginia which was then called Big Licks. At that point the settlers would have decided to travel into southwestern Virginia (and on into Kentucky depending on the time frame) on the Wilderness Road or to continue south on the Carolina Road that went south into the Carolinas and on to Augusta Georgia. It is said that part of the Carolina road was also called the Bryant Road after the Bryant family who are said to have widened the road from Big Licks to the area of the Yadkin River where they settled. And yes I use the term Scotch-Irish. It has become fashionable to call the drink Scotch and the people Scots.....but the term Scotch-Irish has been used so long that genealogists stick to that term to describe those who descend from lowland Scots who moved for a few generations to Ireland and then moved onto North America in 1700's. marsha I have a ggg-uncle who has a chapter dedicated to him in the Wilderness Road book, or one of them. His name was Aaron MYERS, a traveling minister. My Grandfather Roscoe C. MYERS was also a minister, my only brother, Harry E. MYERS, a minister...runs in the family. From studies of those families who traveled the Great Wagon Road, I followed some for a school project years ago, most of them Scotch-Irish (Is this a term?). Thanks again, Audrey

Ladies: You have supplied interesting information on the roads and their rough conditions. Pleased to be able to add that to my little book of facts. Another travel route I have read about and which is often overlooked is that of the coastal ship routes. The Quakers could have left from Philadelphia (the Colonies largest port) and traveled under better circumstances to Charleston, SC or perhaps Savannah. On one S.C. land document for my Welsh Davis family is a cryptic note "from Georgia." This family settled in Camden on Pine Tree Creek. Poldi On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 1:57 AM, Harriet Imrey <[email protected]> wrote: > More than one route has been called the "Great Wagon Road" and even the > "Carolina Road" at different places in different times. Depended on where > people started from, where they were aiming for, and in which year. > > The "Great Wagon Road" usually refers to the "Great Valley Road" through > the > Shenandoah Valley of VA. When Joshua Fry and Peter Jefferson (father of > Pres. Thomas) marked-it and mapped-it in 1751, they called it "The Great > Road from the Yadkin River [NC] thro Virginia to Philadelphia", but noted > that the going was pretty rough--for men on horseback--south of Great Lick > (AKA Roanoke VA). They marked-it with two notches and a cross, but > south-of-Roanoke had not been cleared for wagon-travel quite yet. > > The road had theoretically been cleared down to Salisbury NC by 1753. > Bishop August Spangenberg and his Moravian settlers were headed down the > road in 1752 to their new settlement in Bethabara [Winston-Salem] NC, went > as far as Staunton VA, said "there the bad road began. It was up hill and > down, and we had constantly to push the wagon, or hold it back by ropes > that > we fastened to the rear". His party left The Road (bad as it was) after > reaching the Yadkin River, headed east towards current Winston-Salem "into > the pathless forest". > > At Salisbury NC, the Roanoke VA connection ran into the older route called > the "Upper Road" (the one that was cleared, after a fashion, by 1748 and > went from Philadelphia via Alexandria and Fredericksburg VA through > Hillsborough NC, down to Charlotte NC and later into backcountry SC). John > Collins from Long Island (probably the Long Island in NY) tried that route > in 1748 in order to get to Fredericksburgh Township in SC--the place that > became Pine Tree/Camden SC, and the site of the later Quaker settlement, to > which he was next-door. His petition for land mentioned "the great Expence > and fatigue which he had been under for Twenty weeks by past in his Journey > in Transporting his Family, Waggon, Plot [plow?], and Tools propos'g to > make > Wheat and Flour." He'd left 8 companion-families behind on the Atkin > [Yadkin] and How [Haw] Rivers, and they were waiting for a report from him > before deciding whether to brave the further trip into SC. That was 20 > weeks on the "good" road that was supposedly wagon-negotiable by 1748. The > path from Roanoke VA to the Yadkin River in NC hadn't been cleared by then, > it took a while longer before there was a way to get from the Shenandoah > Valley down into SC with a wagon. > > The Parke Rouse Jr. book, The Great Wagon Road (I like it), includes a map > of the "Great Philadelphia Wagon Road and Wilderness Road" which shows a > branching of routes at Rock Hill (York Co) SC, with an eastern branch going > through Camden SC to Augusta GA, and a western branch going through > Newberry > SC, then to Augusta GA. The map includes no dates. Surveyor/mapmaker > Henry > Mouzon produced a map of the Carolinas in 1774, and it was considered the > most reliable one of its time. The copy which Gen. George Washington > carried in his saddlebag is at Mt. Vernon; Gen. Cornwallis carried one too > (otherwise, nobody would have known where/how to find the next battle). > Mouzon failed to notice a route from York Co SC to the site of Newberry SC, > which leads one to wonder if there were a marked-road, or blazed-trail, at > that time. The road south from Charlotte NC cut west from York Co SC > (noted > as "Path from the Cherokees") into TN, it intersected a trading-path to the > south at roughly the site of Union SC. That north/south path ran parallel > to the Broad River, crossed Second Creek and Cannon's Creek in the Newberry > Co region, didn't get anywhere close to Bush River or the later town of > Newberry. > > So how did the Quakers from PA and NC "get there"? The earliest Bush River > Quaker settlers came from the Fredericksburgh (Camden SC) MM in ~1762, when > there wasn't a community yet. They could take the road down from Camden to > Friday's Ferry (across from Columbia SC), then another westward road that > ran south of the Saluda River to just-across from the Bush River > settlement. > At some point, there must have been a more-direct route from Charlotte NC, > or maybe Rock Hill SC, that was recalled as a portion of the "Great Wagon > Road", or else the "Carolina Road", and went to Newberry SC. The 1774 > Mouzon map didn't show one. > > The Bush River MM was organized in 1770. The people who lived in Camden > could get to Newberry via local roads/trails or via the rivers. The new > settlers from PA/NC before the spring of 1773 had to go to Charlestown > first > anyway, in order to petition for their land grants. The "Upper Road" > (which > also got called the "Great Wagon Road", but not the "Great Valley Road") > was > a better way to take a wagon from the Shenandoah Valley into SC. Not > great, > just better. You could get from NC to Camden SC to Charlestown that way, > then take either a road or the rivers up to the Bush River settlement. > > To the best of my knowledge, I have no Bush River Quaker ancestors (just a > few Swiss immigrants who owned land in the region). The various colonial > SC > documents say that the Quaker settlers were more-literate and > more-successful than the majority of backcountry settlers. These were > bright folks, who wouldn't have chosen the more-arduous migration path over > the one less difficult for their families. The "Upper Road", from > Salisbury > NC to Charlotte NC to Camden SC to Charlestown SC was less-awful in the > early 1770's than the Charlotte NC to Union SC extension of the "Carolina > Road". The ruts in the Great Wagon Road near Newberry SC in the 1770's (or > whenever) may have been made by people less travel-savvy than the Bush > River > Quakers, who probably did-their-homework about the best way to get from > here > to there. > > BTW, I generally use the term "Scots-Irish", no matter what has become > common usage in U.S. genealogy. Just prior to landing in Glasgow in 1985, > I > was informed by the nice elderly lady sitting next to me that she hoped I > would avoid the mistake that most American visitors make: I should > remember > that "Scotch is what we drink, Scots is who we are". I certainly didn't > want to offend anybody while visiting that lovely country! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "marsha moses" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 9:08 AM > Subject: Re: [SC-BUSHRIVERQUAKERS] Roper in NC > > Audrey E Pool wrote: Are you speaking of the Great Wagon Road through the > middle of VA? Weren't there two main migration "roads" (The Great > Wagon...& > The Wilderness Road) during a certain period of time from VA-PA and further > up in the states? > > The Great Wagon Road had many names. We all "took" to calling it the > Great > Wagon Road from Philadelphia to what is now Roanoke Virginia which was then > called Big Licks. At that point the settlers would have decided to travel > into southwestern Virginia (and on into Kentucky depending on the time > frame) on the Wilderness Road or to continue south on the Carolina Road > that > went south into the Carolinas and on to Augusta Georgia. It is said that > part of the Carolina road was also called the Bryant Road after the Bryant > family who are said to have widened the road from Big Licks to the area of > the Yadkin River where they settled. > > And yes I use the term Scotch-Irish. It has become fashionable to call > the > drink Scotch and the people Scots.....but the term Scotch-Irish has been > used so long that genealogists stick to that term to describe those who > descend from lowland Scots who moved for a few generations to Ireland and > then moved onto North America in 1700's. marsha > > I have a ggg-uncle who has a chapter dedicated to him in the Wilderness > Road > book, or one of them. His name was Aaron MYERS, a traveling minister. My > Grandfather Roscoe C. MYERS was also a minister, my only brother, Harry E. > MYERS, a minister...runs in the family. From studies of those families > who > traveled the Great Wagon Road, I followed some for a school project years > ago, most of them Scotch-Irish (Is this a term?). > Thanks again, Audrey > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "She is insane, of course. The family history has become a mania for her." Hercule Poirot http://www.FrontPorchRockerNews.blogspot.com http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Langford This project includes Lankford spelling also. "Truth and reason are eternal. They have prevailed. And they will eternally prevail; however, in times and places they may be overborne for a while by violence, military, civil, or ecclesiastical." --Thomas Jefferson Thomas Jefferson, 1810