It is also noteworthy that some families were on both sides of the fence when it came to accusations. The most obvious example of such would be the Putnam family with individuals such as young Joseph Putnam and old Nathaniel Putnam (who signed the petition attesting the Rebecca Nurse's good character) on the side of defenders and Thomas and Edward Putnam who topped the list in number of complaints sworn. There were other families on both sides as well. Mercy Lewis, for example, was the niece of Thomas and Susanna (Lewis) Cloyes. Thomas' brother, Peter Cloyes was married to Sarah (Towne) (Bridges) Cloyes whose chief accuser was none other than Mercy Lewis. Though Mercy and Sarah would have been "related" only by marriage, the association would have been known to both but made little difference in the hysteria of 1692. Elizabeth (Hathorne) Porter, the wife of that greatest defender of the accused, Israel Porter, was the sister of John Hathorne, the merciless magistrate who examined the accused before they were sent to trial. Thomas Preston, son-in-law of Rebecca Nurse, was among the first to swear out warrants against poor Sarah Good. His name becomes silent on the record after Rebecca Nurse was accused. Some families, such as the Hobbes and Eames, even accused close family members, it would seem in order to get themselves off the hook and shift the eye of the court onto another family member. It is difficult to draw distinct factions between families because many of them were on differing sides of the affair. Eleanor Watson Descended from Rebecca (Towne) Nurse & Abigail (Dane) Faulkner __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com

Was Nathaniel Carrier of Windsor, CT, who married a Pinney, the son of Richard who was accused of witchcraft? As far as I can tell, my Kinne ancestors (accusers) and Nurse ancestors both moved to Sutton, MA where grandchildren of the accuser/accused were married. Cathy Brinkman Mary Lou Grunigen wrote: > My Carrier ancestors moved to Colechester, CT after Martha was > hung as a witch. > Did other Salem families also move to that area? > I am not sure why they picked that spot. > Thanks, > Mary Lou

On 8/23/02, Lisa <LSHOLLINGSWORTH@aol.com> wrote: >One thought is that a lot of those families still had close ties to England. You are right on that point, but it has been generally unexplored, so far. In a recent visit to the library at the Peabody-Essex Museum, I had a chance to meet a doctoral candidate from a British university who was working on her dissertation on the subject of trans-Atlantic influences on the culture in the colonies. For instance, if a family had a reputation in England for being thieves, did it cross the ocean with them? She is not concentrating specifically witchcraft accusations and reputations, but more on the transfer of culture to the colonies -- so witchcraft obviously crops up as a topic in her work. Parish memberships in Old England resonated in parish memberships in New England. There was indeed a lot of travel back and forth between the colonies and England in the latter part of the 17th century, apparently a lot more than we really might assume, with our mental images of the creaky old Mayflower, constantly taking on water, barely making it to land with the Pilgrims in Plimoth in 1620. And with the thriving merchant class, ships had to be more dependable. What do I remember something, too, about sugar from the Caribbean being used to make rum in the colonies. Cheers, Margo -- Margo Burns, List Owner of the SALEM-WITCH List at Rootsweb.com margo@ogram.org

My Carrier ancestors moved to Colechester, CT after Martha was hung as a witch. Did other Salem families also move to that area? I am not sure why they picked that spot. Thanks, Mary Lou

Cindy, I agree. I wish we could find more. My lines from Essex County migrated to NH and to NJ and it seems as we discussed in our private emails that shortly after 1692 a lot of Puritans where converting to other religions. Perhaps these accusers where among them that converted or simply out of needing to put it all behind them, went into the woodwork so to speak and blended out of written history. One thought is that a lot of those families still had close ties to England. My ancestor William Bassett Sr named some children and brothers in his will that where clearly still in England. It was dated 1703. Maybe some of the accusers returned to England? I would like to know more about the Puritan Uprising in 1655 and what that was about and also more about Sarah Burt being accused as a witch in Salem. Linda

Ok, there are a few things that have intrigued me. While the accused families and the more notable accusers ancestory and survivors are of interest to researchers and their families, there naturally hasn't been the same interest for the accusers and their families of lesser promenance in the trials. Also some of the accusers and accused had life experiences that differed only in a few details. Sarah Good, for instance, was dispossessed of her inheiritance by actions of a stepparent(her mother remarried after her father died, which was ruled a suicide, and after her mother's death, her children had to take their father-in-law to court to get their inheiritances or what they could get. Sarah got only a piece of land she had to sell to pay debts incurred by her and her first husband). Her real loss of a physical home was both lesson and source of fear to probably many she begged from. Sarah was understandably bitter and her many neighbors torn between pity for her, blaming her for her misfortune, feeling guilt or even hatred of Sarah. Our feelings towards the homeless haven't changed all that much since. The Protestant religion in all its denominations, was still a new faith, and having destroyed its monasteries, nunneries of the Catholic religion and the accompanying practices that did provide some poor relief and help for the unwanted, was still too new to have social safety nets. This could be one reason for the witch episode in Salem.But no matter what the religion, the fear of heresy within that religion has sparked many a witchhunt. Ann Putnam Sr and her sister got little or nothing from their father's will. Both accusers and accused were experiencing social and economic changes for good and ill. Very real fear of attack from Native Americans was preventing those losing what they did have from moving west. Consequently, traditional English inheiritance laws were coming more to the fore as many estates shrank. Some of the afflicted "children" have been lost to history as well, or their lives post 1692 recently discovered. Their stories and descendants require discovery and discemination so we can get a more complete picture Cindy Abel

All-- I thought I had been clear earlier this week when I said that I felt we had covered this topic sufficiently (perhaps even more than sufficiently), and have been disappointed to see further postings. As the list-owner, I would appreciate it a great deal if no more postings were made. Apologies should be made off-list. Remember: everything you post here goes out to roughly 400 people, and it is not a forum for settling interpersonal disagreements. I would also appreciate it if anyone would begin some new threads on subjects which are more on-topic so that we can move on. Please don't make me have to contact anyone off-list about the possibility of unsubscribing them. --Margo -- Margo Burns, List Owner of the SALEM-WITCH List at Rootsweb.com margo@ogram.org

Please, is there anything you can do to stop the argument? Some folks seems to love for it to continue and I tried the other day to get back on topic but to no avail. I am having "fun" finding a lot of information concerning my ancestors, which I happened to have 9 ancestors accused of the Salem Witch Trials. I by saying "Fun" mean that it is important to me what I find and I am "thrilled" to find so much information about them. Now if anyone is offended that my research means that much to me to say fun and thrilled then I am sorry but it is my words. We all have different opinions and can take what one person says and all hear a completely different thing. I AM SICK of this! Poor Darlene will be afraid to write another word on the list because she has been tormented forever and she has said she was sorry TWICE! Please remove me and let me know when I can come back to emails about the topic

Knock it off already! Some of you are becoming as hysterical as the girls who accused our ancestors. Bill Rexroad Hutchinson, Kansas Direct line from Susannah Martin

Hmm, how many rich executives are now being prosecuted for stealing from shareholders? This does not directly have anything to do with history. One might also point out that for some descendants, the sins of their fathers have meant more than for others. Many of the Rockefellers, for example, chose to become active in philanthropic work *because* they recognized that the originator of the family fortune was not an angel. Julie, you choose not to assume any sense of responsibility for what happened in the past. I think that's unfortunate. Why should I? I didn't do it! Nor have I personally profitted from my ancestors, as the Rochefellers have. If we don't learn from the past, we repeat it. I never said that we shouldn't learn from the past. I just said that we should not be held responsible for it or use to further our own self-interests. And I would think the first thing we could learn is tolerance-- beginning with not jeering "tough luck" at someone whose ancestor was killed. Tom later expressed his acceptance of my conflicting point of view, as I had expressed acceptance of his. My initial point had been the lack of tolerance that had been expressed. Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: SALEM-WITCH-D-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 9:03 PM To: SALEM-WITCH-D@rootsweb.com Subject: SALEM-WITCH-D Digest V02 #42 Content-Type: text/plain SALEM-WITCH-D Digest Volume 02 : Issue 42 Today's Topics: #1 [SALEM-WITCH-L] Learning from Hist ["Francine Nicholson" <sorcha432@ho] Administrivia: To unsubscribe from SALEM-WITCH-D, send a message to SALEM-WITCH-D-request@rootsweb.com that contains in the body of the message the command unsubscribe and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. ______________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

I am sorry for my poor choice of words that seemed to start this exchange. Can we now put all this aside and get on with the real purpose of this list. Darlene

From: Julie Jirout >Tough luck, Julie and later from the same listmember: >But anyway, I don't mean to offend you, and I am sincerely interested in >understanding your point of view. Do you always begin attempts to understand someone else's viewpoint by jeering "Tough luck"? <snip> >If you feel justified in taking a somewhat moral highground as a distant >relative of a victim, then you must feel that it is appropriate for a >distant relative of a perpetrator to feel responsible for the executions. Again, this sarcasm indicates not an interest in understanding--simply an interest in saying why the viewpoint of Tom and others is not to be tolerated. >Can you understand the dangerous repercussions of this? How many distant relatives of slave owners are now responsible for the state of the inner cities? How many successful businessmen are now responsible for property that had been seized from grieving widows? Hmm, how many rich executives are now being prosecuted for stealing from shareholders? One might also point out that for some descendants, the sins of their fathers have meant more than for others. Many of the Rockefellers, for example, chose to become active in philanthropic work *because* they recognized that the originator of the family fortune was not an angel. Julie, you choose not to assume any sense of responsibility for what happened in the past. I think that's unfortunate. If we don't learn from the past, we repeat it. And I would think the first thing we could learn is tolerance--beginning with not jeering "tough luck" at someone whose ancestor was killed. Francine Nicholson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Hello all! After practically no traffic on the list for several months, I thought I could sneak away for a long weekend without anyone noticing, only to return to a mailbox full of exchanges! :o On 8/20/02, Bonnie <Bjohn3237@aol.com> wrote: >I agree that it is time to get back on the subject of the list and not >continue to harp on semantics. I believe everyone is entitled to feel however >they wish but I think everything worthwhile has probably been said and now we >are "beating a dead horse." It was an interesting discussion for a time >though. As your list moderator, I'll step in and say that I think we've had the full range of opinions expressed, and Bonnie is right: it is time to move on. In the next week or so, I will be posting advance reviews of forthcoming books by Cornell History Professor Mary Beth Norton and our own list-member Marilynne Roach, both of which are due out in the next month or so -- start saving up to add them to your bookshelves! You won't want to miss them! Norton presents in full detail for the first time reasons behind the magistrates' behavior in 1692 and the impact of the Indian Wars on the trials. Roach's book is the product of 27 years of research sorting through primary sources to create a day-by-day account of who was doing what when and where. Both are terrific books which I look forward to whetting your appetite for soon! Cheers, Margo -- Margo Burns, List Owner of the SALEM-WITCH List at Rootsweb.com margo@ogram.org

Linda, Somewhere I have a transcription of John Proctor's will and a transcription of a letter written by John Proctor regarding his son who had also been charged with witchcraft. I also have a transcription of a letter written by Elizabeth Proctor. I will be happy to send them to you in a private email as I think they may make too large an email to be posted to the list. I agree that it is time to get back on the subject of the list and not continue to harp on semantics. I believe everyone is entitled to feel however they wish but I think everything worthwhile has probably been said and now we are "beating a dead horse." It was an interesting discussion for a time though. Bonnie

Can we move on and forget this? I would love to open a piece of email that is talking about the subject and not about what someone said or worded wrong. I am seeking information concerning the following: Elizabeth Bassett Proctor Sarah Hurd Bassett Esther Elwell John Proctor Is there anyone else on the list that is looking at these lines? Thanks Linda

----- Original Message ----- From: Julie Jirout Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 5:44 PM To: CICS Subject: Re: History Belongs to Everyone Tom, The Salem Witch Trials is a moment in history for me. I do not feel personally involved in history, and searching out mysteries associated with it is - dare I say - fun. But anyway, I don't mean to offend you, and I am sincerely interested in understanding your point of view. There are others that have expressed a similar - if not slightly less - type of personal involvement in the trials, and I cannot for the life of me understand it. If you feel justified in taking a somewhat moral highground as a distant relative of a victim, then you must feel that it is appropriate for a distant relative of a perpetrator to feel responsible for the executions. Can you understand the dangerous repercussions of this? How many distant relatives of slave owners are now responsible for the state of the inner cities? How many successful businessmen are now responsible for property that had been seized from grieving widows? By being offended by the use of the term "fun" you seem to share in the injustice suffered by your distant relative. But, you are not and did not suffer through this injustice any more or less than I did. How do you have more of a right to say how their stories should or should not be presented than, say, I do? Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: CICS Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 4:41 PM To: Julie Jirout Subject: Re: History Belongs to Everyone At 12:51 PM 8/20/02 -0400, you wrote: Tom, You don't believe that innocent men and women were harassed, persecuted, tortured, and murdered during the Civil War? YOU don't believe it is "fun" stuff to read about, do you? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: CICS Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 12:39 PM To: Julie Jirout Subject: History Belongs to Everyone At 12:06 PM 8/20/02 -0400, you wrote: >Tom, > >You wrote "I struggle to form fun associations concerning the Salem Witch Trials - even 300 years later". > >But without the turn of events that occured during the Salem Witch Trials, it's possible to say that you may not even be here. > >It's wonderful that you have a personal relationship with your heritage, but history belongs to everyone. > >Civil War Enactments are fun. Sorry. (And the history suffering involved is not even comparable.) > >The Salem Witch Trials are fun in the sense that they are still a mystery. Mysteries are fun. > >Tough luck, Julie, "Tough luck"? Who writes that? I am sure our accused ancestors had some of your "tough luck" as well. Yours was the only negative response I received. About 15 list members thanked me for echoing their sentiments. My only point was that this person specifically found "fun" in reading the accusations of her ancestor directed toward mine. I merely suggested she find a better word than "fun". I would be careful when comparing reenactments of military battles with the harassment, persecution, torture and murder of innocent women (and men). T Tom Tom Towle - Computer and Internet Consulting Services towle@sbcics.com - http://www.sbcics.com (805) 969-4517 - P.O. Box 5448, Montecito, CA 93150 Corporate Member - HTML Writers Guild Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com Tom Towle - Computer and Internet Consulting Services towle@sbcics.com - http://www.sbcics.com (805) 969-4517 - P.O. Box 5448, Montecito, CA 93150 Corporate Member - HTML Writers Guild Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

I guess how I view it is that if it was my own mother we were all referring to and not my husband's eight times great grandmother, (a woman the family did not know was related until recently) would I view it differently? I feel sad every time I cross the intersection where my husband's mother died at only 28 years old. She was broadsided by a woman named Helen Foster who ran the stop sign. It happened over thrity years ago and only a mile from the house where she grew up and in front of the church she attended as a little girl. I never knew her. But the thought of my husband barely three growing up and never knowing his mother still brings a tear to my eye. His skull was crushed when he went through the windshield and fell into his nearly dead mother's lap. She died on the way to the hospital while asking about her children. Now if others thought that re-enacting that crash would be fun I would think that inappropriate (to use a word that would would not bear my own prejudices) If they were to have a parade and dress in blood soaked clothes and burnt on clothes (the car caught fire) I would really wonder...... So while I find the events of that day fascinating to learn of, I believe that it is important to remember that any events in history happened to real people. I have not posted until now as I did not want to start a flame, or offend. But I do think that I might bring a unique perspective to the discussion. And just for the record, I was all excited when I found out that my husband was descended from Mary Easty...... UNTIL I thought about what really happened. A tragedy. I would never have any ill will toward Helen Foster's children that their mother is still alive and my husband's mother is not. But I would be offended if they thought it was fun to learn about the horrific accident. We are not responsible for our ancestors, but we are for ourselves. I certainly hope that my comments will help and not cause a ruckus. I mean no offense. Warm regards, Nicol

There is little evidence that another mass execution is underway. While the degree of separation between the church and state is continually being debated - there is a plethora of legal precedents that would place an enormous kink in any machine that instigated the hanging of another 12 people. Public execution and cruel and unusual punishment is now prohibited, and those accused of a crime are guaranteed legal representation, and are approached by our legal system as being innocent until proven guilty. If we were truly frightened of another mass execution, we would probably need start a movement abolishing capital punishment - as it is the legal mainstay - although capital punishment is now carried out without the mass hysteria prevalent in the Salem Witch Trials and over a much longer period of time. I would venture to say that the only lessons yet to be learned from The Salem Witch Trials are in abstract parallels - as Miller points out in his play. But aren't we learning this lesson too? The topic of discussion in reference to 9/11 is avoiding the figurative witch hunt that occured during Pearl Harbor and McCarthyism. It seems as though our country may be currently demonstrating that it is learning this lesson - learning not to instigate mass hysteria or to punish blindly and suddenly those that may be quite innocent. Julie Jirout ----- Original Message ----- From: Halloween Queen Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:51 PM To: SALEM-WITCH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SALEM-WITCH-L] Descendant Responsibility After hearing what Jerry Fallwell said after 911 I am firmly convinced that the Witch trials have never ended and they contnue on and on only the victims are different. I feel that if allowed to some would bring back the burning and hanging days and that the Inquisition is alive and well. Intolerance is what everyone needs to fear, that and if any group is allowed to pervert the Constitution and deny us the freedoms that Frankllin, Adams, Jefferson etc. fought for. Tolerance is Godly and intolerance =hate. It happened during the Salem Witch trials and keeps on happening. Tolerance is the major factor toward achieving peace. Blessings, to you all. gotta go catch a plane! Pamela E. Apkarian-Russell, daughter of a survivor of the Armenian Genocide ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francine Nicholson" <sorcha432@hotmail.com> To: <SALEM-WITCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 4:41 PM Subject: [SALEM-WITCH-L] Descendant Responsibility > I've been thinking over what Adrienne wrote about whether descendants--or > others--can make too much of a fuss in commemorating the deceased of one > tragedy or another. I don't have a problem with a group of descendants > taking time to commemorate those lost on the Titanic--especially since they > are also recalling how that tragedy affected their families. After all, it's > not like they can put flowers on the graves or something like that. I do > have a problem with filmmakers making such fusses, and I'm beginning to get > bugged with politicians who seem to bring up 9/11 just to get an emotional > response from the audience. > > By and large, though, I think it's important to remind people of what > happened in Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Hampshire in the seventeenth > century so that we understand what happened and don't do it again. Despite > the way Miller changed the actual events for the purposes of his plot, he > did show that Salem could happen again and was happening again in the > McCarthy hearings. I tend to think that as descendants we have a special > responsibility to see that the trials are not repeated, and that people > today understand what really happened: that it wasn't a bunch of spooky, > Blair-Witch sort of business, but real communities so divided by hate and > fear that some people turned on others and ensured that they were stripped > of their property, tortured, brutalized, and killed. > > Salem today is a weird conglomeration, a mix of busy commercial center, > colonial remnants, and hokum. I have friends who are Wiccan and some who > identify themselves as witches, and they have *very* mixed feelings about > Salem and some of the current inhabitants and are definitely bugged by stuff > like the logo on the local potato chips. But, though the trials took place > in Salem (is that right?), the fuss began in Salem Village, which is down > the road and less apt to capitalize on the notoriety. Salem definitely is a > fun place to visit. I'm not sure how one also communicates a sense of what > was not so fun in its past. Time has a way of wiping out the horror and > leaving only sunshine and flowers and seagulls looking for leftovers. > > Francine > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

Tom, You wrote "I struggle to form fun associations concerning the Salem Witch Trials - even 300 years later". But without the turn of events that occured during the Salem Witch Trials, it's possible to say that you may not even be here. It's wonderful that you have a personal relationship with your heritage, but history belongs to everyone. Civil War Enactments are fun. Sorry. (And the history suffering involved is not even comparable.) The Salem Witch Trials are fun in the sense that they are still a mystery. Mysteries are fun. Tough luck, Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: CICS Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 12:25 PM To: SALEM-WITCH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SALEM-WITCH-L] Testimony fun to read? At 09:33 AM 8/17/02 -0600, you wrote: >Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:17:55 EDT >From: Ddstevens@aol.com >To: SALEM-WITCH-L@rootsweb.com > >I visited Salem last May and will be returning again in September. It is >such a fun place to do family history and find information on ancestors. > >My ancestor Joseph Ring testified against Susannah Martin. It was fun to see >his testimony and his name in the books...His testimony is recorded and fun to read. Darlene, Somehow the word "fun" doesn't come to my mind when I think about reading false testimony presented against my ancestor Susannah North Martin and the struggles her family members had to endure because of it centuries after her murder. You might consider using a word like "interesting" or "provocative" instead. I am happy your ancestors were either accusers or escapees, however, my ancestor was not as lucky and I struggle with forming "fun" associations, even 300 years later. Tom Tom Towle - Computer and Internet Consulting Services towle@sbcics.com - http://www.sbcics.com (805) 969-4517 - P.O. Box 5448, Montecito, CA 93150 Corporate Member - HTML Writers GuildGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

Would you share the rest? That's beautiful! Nicol ----- Original Message ----- From: <Ddstevens@aol.com> To: <SALEM-WITCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 10:37 PM Subject: [SALEM-WITCH-L] Re: SALEM-WITCH-D Digest V02 #39 > Tamara, that was beautiful and so well said. A few years ago I wrote a poem > that speaks to this feeling. It is quite long so I am only sending the last > few lines. > > Could they only imagine on that long-ago day > That the entries they made would affect us this way? > If they knew, would they wonder at the yearning we feel > And our searching that makes them increasingly real. > We can hear if we listen the words they impart > Through their blood in our veins and their voice in our heart. > > Family history is a strange thing. You either "get it" or you don't. For > those of us that do get it, it is a stirring in our soul to put a face to our > ancestors, to walk in their shoes, and experience history...the good...the > bad...and the ugly. There are many things in history to make us weep and > cringe. The Witch Trials were one such thing. > > This last year my husband and I have traveled extensively across the US and > have visited many historical sites. Many have been the sites of suffering > and persecution. The hush of Vicksburg stirred me and I stood with tears as > I remembered my ancestors that fought in the Civil War; I witnessed some of > the shacks that depicted how the slaves lived and suffered, and I cringed at > the knowledge that some of my ancestors were slave owners. I looked around > and I saw that segregation is still very much alive in places, and that we > still have a long way to go in our quest for tolerance. > > There are so many things that happened in our history. Some we can be proud > of, some we must accept as lessons. Instead of focusing on the negative > things in history, let us learn from our mistakes and go forward and try to > make world a better place right now. > > I have researched many of my ancestors. Some were kind and gentle people and > I am very proud of them. Some were troubled and less than kind. But they > all were human beings, and I am the sum of all of them...the good and the > bad. They all have a story to tell and a lesson to teach, if we only listen > with our hearts. > > Darlene > > > >