The will of George Martin, Susannah North Martin's husband, is there too. http://www.essexcountyma.org/wills/marting.htm -----Original Message----- From: Margo Burns [mailto:margo@ogram.org] Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 11:36 PM To: SALEM-WITCH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SALEM-WITCH-L] Giles Corey's Will Hi all! While we're on this thread, I thought I'd point out that the text of Giles Corey's will is available on-line at: http://www.essexcountyma.org/wills/coreyg.htm There are a lot of transcribed wills from this period in Essex County at this site. John Proctor's will is there at: http://www.essexcountyma.org/wills/proctorj.htm and a settlement of the estate of William Towne of Topsfield, father of Rebecca Nurse, Mary Easty & Sarah Cloyce at: http://www.essexcountyma.org/wills/townew.htm along with the will of William Andrews of Boxford, father of Thomas Andrews and Mary (Andrews) Cummings, both of whom testified against Elizabeth Howe: http://www.essexcountyma.org/wills/andrewsr.htm Cheers, Margo Margo Burns, List Owner of the Salem-Witch List at rootsweb.com margo@ogram.org

Hi all! While we're on this thread, I thought I'd point out that the text of Giles Corey's will is available on-line at: http://www.essexcountyma.org/wills/coreyg.htm There are a lot of transcribed wills from this period in Essex County at this site. John Proctor's will is there at: http://www.essexcountyma.org/wills/proctorj.htm and a settlement of the estate of William Towne of Topsfield, father of Rebecca Nurse, Mary Easty & Sarah Cloyce at: http://www.essexcountyma.org/wills/townew.htm along with the will of William Andrews of Boxford, father of Thomas Andrews and Mary (Andrews) Cummings, both of whom testified against Elizabeth Howe: http://www.essexcountyma.org/wills/andrewsr.htm Cheers, Margo Margo Burns, List Owner of the Salem-Witch List at rootsweb.com margo@ogram.org

At 04:55 PM 12/28/02, Francine Nicholson wrote: >I have another question about Giles Corey: his behavior seems somewhat >contradictory, and he doesn't always seem to have been clear as to what he >saw or did, then emphasized in his will that his body was less than >healthy, but his memory was perfect. Why emphasize that? Might he have had >a cognitive illness like Alzheimer's? I think not, Francine. Then, as now, the standard for will-making is mental competence. Physical disability is irrelevant. Many old wills begin by saying "sound in mind and body" or words to that effect, but others -- such as Corey's -- strive to convince the reader (judge, probate court, heirs, etc.) that though the individual may have many physical ailments, their mind is sharp enough to make competent legal decisions about where their property should go after death. What such testators were seeking to avoid were later claims that they were senile or fevered beyond reason (or, perhaps, drugged beyond reason -- even back then, poppy syrup could be had, though I don't know how common it was in the colonies) by heirs or officials who might have a strong financial interest in overturning the dying person's Will. If necessary, witnesses to the Will would be asked back then not only whether the signature was true, but whether the testator seemed in their right mind when they signed. Lisa

Hello all: In _Devil in the Shape of a Woman_, Carol Karlsen discusses a number of cases where sheriffs and magistrates confiscated real estate and money/investments, not just in witchcraft cases. The victims she mentions were women whose property was confiscated and handed over to a male to "better" handle the property for her (whether or not she needed help). In almost all the cases she cited, the woman or women were unable to recover the property; it remained in the hands of the sheriff, magistrate, or male relative. Some of these women were later accused of witchcraft, which ensured that they could not recover the property. So, there were certainly precedents for such officers taking property and holding on to it, with little justification. I'm unable to check the source right now, but perhaps another listmember can look this up to get names and details. Was the law explicit that the property of accused witches could be confiscated only *after* they were convicted? Didn't the family of Mary Bradbury forfeit their property because she escaped from jail when it it appeared she was going to be convicted and hung? The fact that Giles Corey wrote what amounted to a deed of conveyance, transferring his property to his sons-in-law, immediately after he was put in jail tells me he thought he'd better do something fast to keep his property from being confiscated. I have another question about Giles Corey: his behavior seems somewhat contradictory, and he doesn't always seem to have been clear as to what he saw or did, then emphasized in his will that his body was less than healthy, but his memory was perfect. Why emphasize that? Might he have had a cognitive illness like Alzheimer's? Francine Nicholson _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_eliminateviruses_3mf

At 03:03 PM 12/27/02, Helen Graves wrote: >I have heard from one person (Sandy) that John and Elizabeth Proctor's >real estate was seized BEFORE they were tried and convicted. How could >Sheriff Corwin get away with that? > >Also, if Sheriff Corwin took the property, would the sales (conveyances) >be found in deed records and would they be listed on the Grantor Index >under "S" for Sheriff George Corwin to, or under "C" Corwin, George to ? > >Or, would the Grantor be the govt, as in "Massachusetts Bay" or "Colony of >Massachusetts Bay", or what? Let me take a shot at this. In modern times, it would be the name of the government unit which did the seizure -- State of Illinois, for example, or County of Fairfax. I think even back then it would be very fishy if the Sheriff put properties confiscated through his office in his personal name, so I think "Corwin, George C." properties can safely be assumed to be those which were his very own, not held by a governmental entity. Yes, the deeds OUGHT to show that the property was in the Sheriff's custody before going to the new owners; for the period between confiscation and re-sale, the government unit is the title holder, and should be shown like that. As to the Proctor seizure BEFORE trial, two things: 1. Since people were charged for their own costs of imprisonment even BEFORE trial, and even if NOT found guilty, perhaps the properties were seized to pay ongoing incarceration costs? Does this make sense in the Proctor situation? Were they imprisoned for long? 2. Even in modern times, and despite the U.S. Constitution's guarantees against unreasonable seizures without due process of law, properties are still routinely seized before trial. This usually works two ways: a. because the property itself is being sued -- sounds odd, but particularly in drug cases, you get cases such as "United States v. $400,000 in U.S. Currency." Also boats, mansions, etc.etc. In theory, under certain jurisdictions, anything "used" in the commission of certain crimes is subject to seizure; anything purchased with the proceeds of certain crimes is subject to seizure; etc. This is, IMHO (in my humble opinion) an appalling and unconstitutional bit of overkill due to the so-called "war on drugs," violating the 4th and 8th Amendments, just for starters. Courts nonetheless have upheld such statutes; as all of us on this list know, courts are scarcely immune to hysteria. People have lost million-dollar yachts because a crew member or unknown visitor left a marijuana joint aboard. b. there is reason to believe the property is a product of a crime and will be subject to confiscation after trial, so it is seized or frozen before trial to prevent the accused from making away with it. Think frozen bank accounts, etc. A modern legal problem with such pre-trial seizures is that seizing enough of the accused's assets may make it impossible for her or him to pay for a competent legal defense. So... perhaps the properties were seized prior to trial to prevent the Proctors from selling them or otherwise devising them over to their heirs, in order to remove them from potential confiscation? Lisa

I have learned it was legal for the sheriff to seize personal property, including harvest in the fields, animals, household goods, etc. to pay for court and jailing costs. But was there a law which allowed Sheriff Corwin to legally seize real estate? If your ancestor's real estate was seized, please post what you know to the list (including where you found your information). I have read references in books that Sheriff Corwin seized real estate. I have heard from one person (Sandy) that John and Elizabeth Proctor's real estate was seized BEFORE they were tried and convicted. How could Sheriff Corwin get away with that? Also, if Sheriff Corwin took the property, would the sales (conveyances) be found in deed records and would they be listed on the Grantor Index under "S" for Sheriff George Corwin to, or under "C" Corwin, George to ? Or, would the Grantor be the govt, as in "Massachusetts Bay" or "Colony of Massachusetts Bay", or what? -- Helen

Dear Francine, There are better experts on this list than I, but things seem to be slow because of the holidays, so I'll take a short shot at answering your question. Basically, Corey refused to enter a plea so that he could not be tried. If tried, he would have been convicted, and all his possessions would have been forfeit to the Crown, rendering his family homeless and disinherited. By refusing to plea, he was able to save something out of the wreckage of his life for his children. You might be reminded of ancient Rome under the worst of the Caesars. If Caesar ordered your death (and you were a propertyholder), you could choose to kill yourself in order to preserve your estate for your family. If you didn't kill yourself and were formally executed, all your possessions were forfeit to Caesar. Giles Corey endured two days of torture by pressing before he finally died. His love of his family must have been fierce indeed to have sustained him through that. Lisa At 11:58 PM 12/21/02, Francine Nicholson wrote: >Hello all: > >Forgive me if this question has been overdone, but I'm wondering: what's >the latest thoughts on why Giles Corey refused to enter a plea? I've seen >several thoughts, but I feel sure that the listmembers here will have gone >beyond the commonplace notions to consider various possibilities and the >pros and cons of each. So will you share your thoughts with the list? > >Thanks! > >Francine Nicholson

Hi... I am a descendant of Abigail Faulkner and would appreciate any contact and any information that any of you would have available to share. Thank you, Gene Zuill

Hello all: Forgive me if this question has been overdone, but I'm wondering: what's the latest thoughts on why Giles Corey refused to enter a plea? I've seen several thoughts, but I feel sure that the listmembers here will have gone beyond the commonplace notions to consider various possibilities and the pros and cons of each. So will you share your thoughts with the list? Thanks! Francine Nicholson >From: SALEM-WITCH-D-request@rootsweb.com >Reply-To: SALEM-WITCH-L@rootsweb.com >To: SALEM-WITCH-D@rootsweb.com >Subject: SALEM-WITCH-D Digest V02 #82 >Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:00:41 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from lists5.rootsweb.com ([207.40.200.41]) by >mc9-f39.bay6.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sat, 21 Dec >2002 18:01:55 -0800 >Received: (from slist@localhost)by lists5.rootsweb.com (8.12.4/8.12.4) id >gBM20fKb027330;Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:00:41 -0700 >Message-Id: <200212220200.gBM20fKb027330@lists5.rootsweb.com> >X-Loop: SALEM-WITCH-D@rootsweb.com >X-Mailing-List: <SALEM-WITCH-D@rootsweb.com> archive/volume02/82 >Precedence: list >Return-Path: SALEM-WITCH-D-request@rootsweb.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Dec 2002 02:01:56.0078 (UTC) >FILETIME=[1AC2A8E0:01C2A95E] > ><< message2.txt >> ><< message4.txt >> ><< message6.txt >> ><< message8.txt >> ><< message10.txt >> _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 limited-time offer: Join now and get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_newmsn8ishere_3mf

Greetings, all! This is an interesting thread, which may or may not belong here (oh, poopy-head me, for always having to say so...), but I think that with many people on this list whose interest in Salem may encompass the collectibles, Pam's post was important. The further issue of whether legitimate historical materials about the witchcraft trials could be potentially at risk at eBay is definitely on-topic. For those of you who are concerned about where eBay might draw the line banning items by content (i.e., that witchcraft collectibles & books might be next to get the axe!), this is the text from eBay's policy page concerning what "offensive materials" sellers may not offer. Although I have pared it down to the most pertinent portions of the text, the full text is located at http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/offensive.html ------------------------------------ eBay has always exercised judgment in allowing or disallowing certain listings consistent with the spirit of a worldwide community. Therefore, eBay will judiciously disallow listings or items that promote or glorify hatred, violence, or racial intolerance, or items that promote organizations (such as the KKK, Nazis, neo-Nazis, and Aryan Nation) with such views. For example, eBay will generally remove items that bear the marks of such organizations, such as relics from the KKK or Nazi helmets.[snip] eBay will review listings that are brought to its attention by its worldwide community, and will look at the entire listing to determine whether it falls within this rule.[snip] Examples of items that will generally be removed: * Items that bear symbols of the Nazis, the SS, or the KKK, including authentic German WWII memorabilia that bear such marks [snip] Examples of items that may generally be listed: * German coins and stamps from the WWII era regardless of markings * WWII memorabilia that does not bear the Nazi or SS markings * Books and movies about WWII or Nazi Germany, even if the Nazi symbol appears on the item ------------------------------------ On that ~cheery~ note, happy holidays one and all! --Margo Your List Elf

eBay has strict policies against selling KKK and Nazi items. They don't mind witch items at all, antique, ancient, modern, Wiccan, whatever. :) In any case, the person who first started this thread gave us not the eBay auction number, but rather the illustration page that the eBay auction referred to, which is a smaller auction site for several different vendors. The way I went about this was to leave a note in the comment form there that assumed the vendor was innocent, but explaining the KKK symbology and that they could check on it with any reference librarian. Whew! After the holidays, I'm going to be writing about my Salem ancestress! I'm done for now... happy new year, all. At 01:56 AM 12/21/02, VelvetDove2002@aol.com wrote: >Ebay is an online auction... if you want to complain some more, email the >person that has the item up for bidding...go directly to the source and tell >them you are going to report them if they do not take off the "Salem Witch" >on the subject line of their item... If they then do not do anything,,, then >send a email petition straight to ebay themselves.. call them on the phone >one day, they have a service number.. But If you have not directly contacted >the person who has the item up for bid, then going to ebay first might not >help much... ebay cannot tell someone to change something... people have >tried this on ebay before.. if you tell them to take off the part of the >Salem Witches... then ebay might say "Well... The Salem Witches are >offending to other people.. so we might ban the sale of all things to do with >it, also..and ban selling of the KKK items.. they both offend people so we >will get rid of them both.." an occurance like that has happened with them >before... so be careful... our ancestors in Salem were not bad people... > but some people are offended by them just as some people are offended by > the >Ku Klux Klan... the KKK and the Salem Witches are both someone's family >heritage.. Maybe the person who has the items on ebay honestly do not know >what they have for sale... Look at the situation from everyone's point of >view.. I do not want this to end with ebay banning the sale of Salem Witch >items.. but.. it may happen...

Ebay is an online auction... if you want to complain some more, email the person that has the item up for bidding...go directly to the source and tell them you are going to report them if they do not take off the "Salem Witch" on the subject line of their item...  If they then do not do anything,,, then send a email petition straight to ebay themselves.. call them on the phone one day, they have a service number..  But If you have not directly contacted the person who has the item up for bid, then going to ebay first might not help much...   ebay cannot tell someone to change something... people have tried this on ebay before..  if you tell them to take off the part of the Salem Witches...  then ebay might say "Well... The Salem Witches are offending to other people.. so we might ban the sale of all things to do with it, also..and ban selling of the KKK items.. they both offend people so we will get rid of them both.."  an occurance like that has happened with them before... so be careful...  our ancestors in Salem were not bad people...  but some people are offended by them just as some people are offended by the Ku Klux Klan... the KKK and the Salem Witches are both someone's family heritage.. Maybe the person who has the items on ebay honestly do not know what they have for sale...  Look at the situation from everyone's point of view.. I do not want this to end with ebay banning the sale of Salem Witch items.. but.. it may happen...  

If you look at the total web site it appears to be an on line flea market. Maybe if everyone on the list that is offended by this KKK Salem Witch link would complain to abuse@tias.com and fill out the complaint form at http://www.tias.com/other/tiasquestion_form.html They might consider removing it (which I doubt) but it feels good to vent at this crap. Tell them that you are offended at your persecuted ancestors from 1692 being linked to the KKK. Neal Carrier Margo, Please make everyone aware that these KKK items are being sold as Salem witch items and there are at least two different items being sold by these people. They are brand new. Never made by Tiffany are KKK not Salem Witch never made as old pieces and this is a scam. I leave early tomorrow AM for 7 weeks on the road or I would contact ebay again myself. I have contacted the people twice and they do not  respond. They know darned well what they are doing. Pamela > > Beware  picture link below > http://pages.tias.com/2448/PictPage/1921134625.html > ______________________________

There is no question about these being made in the past few years. There were New fakes made in the late 70s with Tiffany marks on the back. well Tiffany never made them and I even met the guy who was faking them in UK one day as I was out antiquing there. I know the Salem Witch items very well, I spend my life looking for them and researching them. I don't want to see anyone hurt on these items and I resent them selling KKK items for Salem WItch items. If you get offered these items or see any like them they are outright fakes. I will be away for 7 weeks but If any more come up I trust everyone is smart enough and ethical enough to blast the perpetrators. How horrible equating Salem Witch victims with the KKK! Merry Christmas to all! Pamela ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Small" <LMS6@georgetown.edu> To: "Halloween Queen" <halloweenqueen@cheshire.net>; <SALEM-WITCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [SALEM-WITCH-L] Fw: Question from eBay Member > I agree with Pamela. The hooded figure holding the book, the presence of > the two crosses, and most significantly, the U.S. flag flown upside down -- > all those are KKK emblems. The little witch on the back of the money clip > and the words "Salem" appear to be part of the maker's mark, that's all. > > At 02:57 PM 12/19/02, Halloween Queen wrote: > >Margo, > >Please make everyone aware that these KKK items are being sold as Salem > >witch items and there are at least two different items being sold by these > >people. They are brand new. Never made by Tiffany are KKK not Salem Witch > >never made as old pieces and this is a scam. I leave early tomorrow AM for 7 > >weeks on the road or I would contact ebay again myself. I have contacted the > >people twice and they do not respond. They know darned well what they are > >doing. Pamela > > > > > > Beware picture link below > > > http://pages.tias.com/2448/PictPage/1921134625.html > >

I agree with Pamela. The hooded figure holding the book, the presence of the two crosses, and most significantly, the U.S. flag flown upside down -- all those are KKK emblems. The little witch on the back of the money clip and the words "Salem" appear to be part of the maker's mark, that's all. At 02:57 PM 12/19/02, Halloween Queen wrote: >Margo, >Please make everyone aware that these KKK items are being sold as Salem >witch items and there are at least two different items being sold by these >people. They are brand new. Never made by Tiffany are KKK not Salem Witch >never made as old pieces and this is a scam. I leave early tomorrow AM for 7 >weeks on the road or I would contact ebay again myself. I have contacted the >people twice and they do not respond. They know darned well what they are >doing. Pamela > > > > Beware picture link below > > http://pages.tias.com/2448/PictPage/1921134625.html

Margo, Please make everyone aware that these KKK items are being sold as Salem witch items and there are at least two different items being sold by these people. They are brand new. Never made by Tiffany are KKK not Salem Witch never made as old pieces and this is a scam. I leave early tomorrow AM for 7 weeks on the road or I would contact ebay again myself. I have contacted the people twice and they do not respond. They know darned well what they are doing. Pamela > > Beware picture link below > http://pages.tias.com/2448/PictPage/1921134625.html >

Robert, Define "definitive". I have some info about Martha on my Carrier website at www.dreamscape.com/ncarrier I'm descended from her via Thomas Jr., Jeremiah Sr., Jeremiah Jr, Seymour Sr., Seymour Jr., Ansel, & my father Howard. Where did you come up with "Crane" in her name? I see people mention that now and then but don't know where they get it from. Neal Carrier List worlock of the Rootsweb Carrier list. Robert Avery wrote: >===================================================================== >A result of your requested PML search. To refine or cancel this >search, please visit http://pml.rootsweb.com/ >===================================================================== >Source: SALEM-WITCH-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [SALEM-WITCH-L] Hi everyone and Happy Thanksgiving > > >Hi Everyone, > >Does anyone know where to get any definitive information on my g(x9) >grandmother Martha Crane Allen Carrier? Also is anyone on the list also her >descendent? > >Robert Avery > >

Hi Everyone, Does anyone know where to get any definitive information on my g(x9) grandmother Martha Crane Allen Carrier? Also is anyone on the list also her descendent? Robert Avery

>From : Beatrice Fortin <albee@pivot.net> >I too, have been reading up on everthing I can put my hands on, about the >Salem witch trials, as I had 4 ancestors who were tried and convicted, one was even put to death by hanging and a friend of mine, has an ancestor as well. I haven't been able to learn very much about them and I'd like to learn more details of their lives and etc. I have a collateral ancestor who was accused, tried, and convicted of witchcraft in Newbury a couple of years before the Salem (or Essex County) Hysteria. I have a suggestion for looking for information about your "witchy" ancestors: try looking in family genealogies and town histories, or go straight to the collections of county court records. While my ancestor appears in a number of books about witch accusations in New England, I found that each editor omitted certain things that illuminated the circumstances of my ancestor's life, the trial, and the aftermath. I wouldn't know any of these rather siginficant details if I'd stuck to books about the witch trials. I'm not saying ignore the books about the trials; on the contrary, I've learned a great deal from the pens of such scholars as John Demos and David Hall. I only recently acquired _Witchcraft, Magic and Religion in 17th Century Massachusetts_ by Richard Weisman and wish I'd read it long ago because I found that Professor Weisman' was the only one to adequately investigate and understand the specific social dynamics involved in the trial and persecution of my ancestor (as opposed to anyone else). Some of the books on the subject are not as worthy of consideration as the works of these scholars. I have found that besides consulting those books, it was helpful to look at local histories, family histories, and primary records (ir printed collections thereof). Also, I learned a great deal by asking the local librarians and town historians for help. Often such people are aware of oral tradition that helps to clarify evidence, or they know about obscure details or sources. For example, one time I asked a direction of special collections (who specialized in Haverhill and Newbury and Newburyport) his opinion of a theory advanced by a member of a genealogical society about where my ancestor's house was located. He took out a copy of her sentence from a shelf (she'd been sentenced to house arrest with ball and chain and the only time she could come out was to walk to church by the shortest route accompanied by the minister). He noted the details in the sentence about the route she could take, and related it to the buildings known to have been standing in the seventeenth century, and deftly disproved the new theory in under five minutes. By the way, I was wondering if anyone has read _Spellbound: Women and Witchcraft in America_ by Elizabeth Reis (Editor) Kriste Lindenmeyer Diane L. Murphy? I apolgize if the book already has been discussed on the list. Francine Nicholson _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

Before you buy any book, I'd recommend getting it at your library first. This book is so new that my library's copy isn't ready to circulate yet, but I'm first on the waiting list based on the recommendations from this email list. :) Also, consider interlibrary loan for some rarer materials. Genealogy is expensive, especially since the Social Security administration raised its fee for SS-5 forms from $7 to $27 EACH last year, so save your pennies where you can, is my advice! Lisa At 04:56 PM 11/27/02, Beatrice Fortin wrote: >Hi Amy, >This book, that you described, certainly sounds like what I'm looking for! >I too, have been reading up on everthing I can put my hands on, about the >Salem witch trials, as I had 4 ancestors who were tried and convicted, one >was even put to death by hanging and a friend of mine, has an ancestor as well. >I haven't been able to learn very much about them and I'd like to learn >more details of their lives and etc. >Could you please tell me where I can order the Marilynne Roach book-The >SALEM WITCH TRIALS, I'm assuming, that it's a recent book that has just >been published, or am I wrong? >Please let me know. Bea