From another mailing list. --------- Forwarded message ---------- I write a genealogy column for our local papers, and my last one was on Naming Patterns ... here's a bit from it that might explain some of what you are asking - note in particular, the "patronymic" system, which was followed more or less by the Irish, and others. (Also check out the Welsh!) I'm sure there is more to naming patterns, I just thought this was interesting. :) I apologize if someone here is on another mailing list, where I recently posted the same bit from my column. Phyllis Generally, there are four main types of naming patterns. The most common is the patronymic system, which involves taking the father’s name (both given and surname). Names were also derived from occupation (Barber), by locality (Forest), or acquired by the use of nicknames. Nicknames could refer to personal characteristics such as skin color (White), size (Little), morals (Goodson), habits (Walker), or could be given without any particular reason (Polly for Mary). The Italians, English, Scottish, and the Irish generally used the patronymic system (with variations): The first son was named after the father’s father; second son after the mother’s father. Third son was named after the father, fourth son after the father’s eldest (or only) brother, and fifth son after the mother’s eldest (or only) brother. The first daughter was named after the mother’s mother; second daughter after the father’s mother. Third daughter was named after the mother, fourth daughter after the mother’s eldest (or only) sister, and fifth daughter after the father’s eldest (or only) sister. In addition to patronymics, the Scottish also had surnames patterned after localities (Galloway), occupations (Cooper – barrel maker), and nicknames (Campbell – crooked mouth). The Scots frequently used the prefix ‘Mac’ to denote ‘son of’ (MacDonald), while the Irish used the prefix ‘O’ (O’Donald). Note: the prefix ‘Mc’ (McDonald) or “ M’ ” (M’Donald) is merely a contraction for ‘Mac’. The Welsh naming system was patronymic like the English, but with a twist: the children took their father’s given name as their surname. This caused surnames to change from generation to generation, a genealogist’s worst nightmare. Under this system, Evan, the son of Thomas William, would be known as Evan Thomas; his son John would be John Evan; John’s son Rees would be Rees John; Rees’s son David would be David Rees; and so on. Sometimes, the Welsh would string their names together with the word ‘ap’, which means ‘son of’ – so David Rees might be David ap Rees ap John ap Evan ap Thomas ap William. The Welsh also sometimes incorporated ‘ap’ into a surname. In this way Owen could become Bowen (son of Owen); Richard could become Prichard (son of Richard); Evan could be Bevan; and Huw or Hugh could become Pugh. The Germans and the French (and other cultures) gave their children two given names at baptism: the first given name was a spiritual, or favorite saint’s name. The second given name was a secular name, which is the name the person was known by. The same saint’s name would be given to all the children of the same gender, with the secular name differing. For example, at baptism the girls might be given the names Marie Louise Chenet, Marie Aimee Chenet, and Marie Lillian Chenet. But after Baptism, they would be known as Louise, Aimee, and Lillian Chenet. This is important to know when you are searching. If you find a baptism record for Marie Louise Chenet, you might spend a lot of time searching for other records for Marie Chenet, when they would probably be found under the name Louise Chenet, as she was known to the world. The Germans also added prefixes and suffixes to their surnames, to denote gender, localities, and occupations. For example, the word ‘Forst’ means a forest; adding ‘er’ or ‘ner’ (Forster, Forstner) would mean one who works in a forest, works with timber, or is from a forest. The prefix ‘in’ denotes that the person is a female; so the surname Forsterin would indicate that the person from the forest is a female. Can someone tell me the origin of the custom of naming order, ie: >The first male child was named after the paternal grandfather.The second male >child was named after the maternal grandfather. The first female child was >named after the paternal grandmother, the second female child named after the >maternal grandmother, etc. >Is this strictly an Irish custom? >Sara > > ______________________________