I am planning on being in NC for a couple of days to do research. My main interest is a man named Silas P. Wooten who appears several places in NC in the late 1700's. Silas was born between 1758-1759 according to information that he gave 16 Jan 1826 when his Revolutionary Pension is executed. He claims to be 67 years old. He says that he fought in the battle of Guilford County Courthouse: > Silas Wooten was supported in his application for pension by Anthony > Hall and Thomas Lovelady. Lovelady stated that "Wooten enlisted in > Halifax County Virginia under Captain Bowyers and Colonel Campbell > ,that ...Wooten served out his full term of enlistment and that he > served about two or three months longer and that the said Wooten was > in the Battle at Guilford in March,1781. Wooten stated that he > enlisted in January, 1780. That he served honorably through the Battle > of Guilford Courthouse and was discharged by Colonel Campbell on April > 1, 1781 in Caswell County North Carolina. I believe that it is likely that Silas married Phebe Worth who was the daughter of Francis Worth. This family were Quakers from Nantucket who settled in Guilford County before the Revolution with other Quaker families from Nantucket. I would like to find more proof to further document the validity of this marriage. At this point I have a copy of Francis Worth's original will from the NC archives in which Francis names his daughter as Phebe Wooten. I would like some ideas or help on the following: Is there a professional researcher in the area who might have time to meet with me Sunday or Monday (that is this weekend)? Is there a guide who is good at showing people around the area? Is there any kind or research facilities open on Sunday? Where would I look for land records to see if there is any possibility that Silas owned land during the years he was in the area before he moved his family to KY? Any other ideas of what I might look at while I am in the general area? I could also go to the NC archives instead of the actual area...I am driving from FLA and my travel plans are not "written in stone". Thanks for any help that anyone can give me. Marsha Moses > >

Hello again List Members: Here I go again with another question that has me stumped.? If a man who served as a soldier in the Revolutionary War was filing for his pension in 1832 and all of his service records had been?lost, could he?have someone who was related to him by blood, such as a brother or cousin,?testify on his behalf at a court held hearing?? Or, would anyone who testified?to this man's truthfulness and his military service record?have to be someone who was not related to this man? This man had three unrelated men testify on his behalf and they stated, "that he is generally REPORTED and BELIEVED to have been a soldier of the Revolution and that WE CONCUR in that opinion."? There was another man who lived in the area at the time of this hearing with the same surname as the man who was applying for his military pension who some believe that was either his brother or a first cousin to the applicant.? Could this man who was related testify or would this be similar to an heir serving as witness to a will? Note: The man did receive his military pension and died a few years later.? He served in North Carolina and was living in Kentucky at the time he applied for his pension. Thank you for any help. Linda Monticelli ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com

There are many pension files where relatives (usually a brother) testified and in their deposition they state they know the person was a soldier. Often the reason they give is because they served together. Rick Saunders

Dear Rick Saunders Thanks for the explanation. I was not sure how the query was using the word *witness*. E.W.Wallace **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

There seems to be an Isaac in every generation of the Wiseman family, sometimes one in every family. This is not the correct one for me. The Isaac I'm searching was born in Berks County possibly, PA ca 1706. His father was possibly the Thomas who bought land in what was then Philadelphia County, now Montgomery. I know Isaac knew Stehen (sometimes Stephan) who resided in the same area of PA, as they both signed a petition in 1744. My Isaac died in Rowan in 1770's as his will was probated in 1779, so a timeline does not work with Mary Wilson as his wife. She was only 12 when his will was probated. Thanks anyway. Lolene

I have a slightly different question for the experts in this group. Have you ever encountered a will where two witnesses stated that the third was requested to witness the document? The will was signed in PA, but the one witness asked to sign was an ancestor who moved to Rowan. Isaac Wiseman was asked to sign a will in which a Stephen Miller states that his daughter Mary has been provided for. She is the only one of the children so identified. Now, my interpretation is that Isaac's wife, whose name is Mary by records in Rowan, is the Mary who had been provided for. Am I off base? Her name has been noted, with no documentation , as being Marshall possibly. I feel it more likely that her father wanted her husband to acknowledge that his wife had been provided for. Comments? Lolene

To clear up any misunderstanding?of my question about an heir and possibly a?son?being a "witness" for an Estate Inventory: The person whose estate was being inventoried was living in Orange County, North Carolina at the time of his death.? The person who "witnessed" the deceased man's estate inventory had the same surname as the decedent's.? There were only five person's with this same surname listed as Head of Household on the 1800?Orange County, NC census records and I am trying to find if and/or how?these five men may have been related.? It has not yet been determined whether the man in question?who "witnessed" the estate?inventory was the deceased man's son. Since there are so few documents to be found on these five men with the same surname, we are now using DNA studies in hopes of learning whether they were related to each other or not. Thanks to all for your help. Linda Monticelli ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003

Mary Wilson b ca 1767 d 1808 buried Jersey Babtist Church married Issac Wiseman 1781. reference The Heritage of Davidson County, Published in Cooperation with the Historical Publishing Division, Hunter Publishing Company, Winston-Salem North Carolina 27113 ISB 0-9-459-182-7 Both attended and were active members of the Jersey Church (see Paschall's History of NC Baptists) Almira (Clifford) Crim in a paper she had typed in 1947, stated that Issac Wiseman was born in Cumberland county, Penn. 1766 and died in Rowan county NC in 1835 and that wife Mary Wilson was born in Rowan county in 1767. Dwayne Meyer Lolene <lolene3599@sbcglobal.net> wrote: I have a slightly different question for the experts in this group. Have you ever encountered a will where two witnesses stated that the third was requested to witness the document? The will was signed in PA, but the one witness asked to sign was an ancestor who moved to Rowan. Isaac Wiseman was asked to sign a will in which a Stephen Miller states that his daughter Mary has been provided for. She is the only one of the children so identified. Now, my interpretation is that Isaac's wife, whose name is Mary by records in Rowan, is the Mary who had been provided for. Am I off base? Her name has been noted, with no documentation , as being Marshall possibly. I feel it more likely that her father wanted her husband to acknowledge that his wife had been provided for. Comments? Lolene ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROWANROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ms. Wallace, Thank you so much for your willingness to share these great research tips on what to look for next and where to look for it.? I always look forward to reading your responses and the?information you share on doing good research. Thanks again for all of your help. Linda Monticelli -----Original Message----- From: Hdanw@aol.com To: ROWANROOTS-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 1:32 am Subject: [ROWANROOTS] Inventory Linda writes: Hello List members , I don't know if anyone can help me out or not with this question, but it's worth a try.? Could an heir to an estate be a?witness the the inventory of the deceased person's estate?? In other words, if my ancestor, John Doe, dies without a will, can John Doe's son sign as a witness on?the inventory of his father's estate? Thanks for any help, Linda Monticelli Trying to help, this is my response: I am not sure about a *witness* to an inventory. One of the first administrations I ran across was in a Jackson Purchase county of Kentucky. The deceased had died rather suddenly, it seems, and his just-married son was appointed administrator by the court. [check the court orders, in Kentucky called Court Order Book; in Virginia, just an order book]. As such he and I believe two other fellows conducted the inventory and then the son held an estate sale. Try to check the court documents preceding the inventory and then check the court records for an estate sale. Also note who attends the estate sale and who purchases items. They are generally neighbors and some may even be relatives. In the estate sale to which I refer, the daughter of the deceased bought a saddle. My teachers of genealogy have taught me well: Collect the neighbors. They may have been neighbors in a previous residence, and some may even be in-laws--or soon will be. One genealogist from the Salt Lake City area says, Do a mini-census. She means collect the neighbors!!! I hope you will find a deed in which the heirs distribute the land. That may be interesting. Sometimes you find the heirs of the deceased have moved to *foreign parts*--an adjoining State or to a new State which is offering cheap land! E.W.Wallace **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROWANROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003

janethunter703@aol.com wrote: >I think my experience in Virginia, Tennessee >and NC research is a little different than several >of the other responses. I don't see that your response was different. I think the difference may be is in how we interpreted what Linda meant by the word "witness" in her original query. The other responses stated a WITNESS to an inventory could be an heir. As you note, the APPRAISERS would NOT be an heir because of conflict of interest, but would be neutral persons. Depending on the state/time, the county court would list 4 persons, of which any 3 (or 3 persons, of which any 2) were to return an inventory of the estate to the next court. The appraisers usually lived in the "vicinity" of the deceased, and you may often see in the court records the same appraisers being used for most estates in their "general vicinity." The appraisers would sign the inventory which would be presented at the next court by the administrator/executor. The inventory in being signed by the APPRAISERS will often contain some such wording as "pursuant to an order of this court of [date] to appraise the estate of XXXX we have appraised the estate as above as WITNESS our hands and seals this [date]." Perhaps this is where the confusion in the use of the word "witness" is from. The appraisers would usually testify at the next court where the inventory was presented to their having taken the inventory. The inventory may just have the signatures of the appraisers. Sometimes an inventory will also be signed by witnesses to the appraisers signing the inventory. I don't know of any law saying that an heir couldn't sign as a witness to a neutral party signing an inventory as an appraiser, as there is no conflict of interest. They would not be testifying to taking the inventory (which would be a conflict of interest) but testifying to a neutral party having signed the inventory. This would also be different from a person signing as a witness to a will in which they were an heir, since the person they are testifying to having witnessed signing is dead. Legally, a person couldn't sign as a witness and be an heir to a will, because the person they were testifying to is dead, and "witnesses" that were all heirs could have forged the will. I have seen a few cases where an heir to a will was also a witness, but the will was usually proved by other witnesses who were not heirs. In MD, in addition to being signed by the appraisers, all inventories had to be signed by two "next of kin" [usually identified as "kin" on the inventory] and the two largest creditors [usually identified as "creditors" on the inventory] as approving the inventory done by the appraisers. Although not technically called "witnesses", the kin and creditors were such in their capacity in approving the inventory done by the appraisers. Rick Saunders No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 12/9/2007 11:06 AM

Hello Linda and all, I think my experience in Virginia, Tennessee and NC research is a little different than several of the other responses. I tend to agree with the direction of EW Wallace's comments below. Generally in the 1600s, 1700s and 1800s, the persons (usually three, of which two must participate) chosen by the court (given its blessing) to construct an estate inventory were those NOT involved in the estate as either administrators/executors or beneficiaries or major creditors. I believe this was due to the fact that those individuals had a vested interested in the outcome (ie, items included and their valuation). And they might be tempted to some sort of shenanigans, such as not including certain items, that would skew the outcome and be unfair to the beneficiaries and or creditors. I would suggest that if people of the surname were named to take the inventory, then all parties and the court agreed they would be objective, but they would probably not be executor/administrator, beneficiary or major creditor. The persons chosen to take the inventory are often neighbors as suggested. The estate sale is another situation however, in which the administrators/executors were generally the ones conducting the sale and reporting the results to the court, as a rule. I agree that the estate sales that list the participants are very important. One of the most interesting facets is that you can find out your ancestor's nicknames! My g grandmother Letsey Catherine (Shelton) Baugh, was known as "Kate". I found this first in two separate estate sales given me by Shelton cousins, then I found her will ca 1924, and she wrote it as Kate Baugh. Figuring this out was also a big step in helping identify who the "Kate" was as referred to in some old letters I have. Another thing you may notice is that the widow and children often buy back many items that were their own possessions. Usually this is a paper transaction for them, as the amount of the items "purchased", ends up being taken out of their respetives shares, bequests in the final settlements. I have Kate Baugh's husband William Eggleston Baugh's final settlement documents, as my grandfather was the administrator. The value of the estate is divided equally amongst all the children, after Kate's dower share is taken out. Then from each child's share is substracted the amount of their loans still outstanding from their father, and amounts of items purchased at the sale. FYI, finding this document amongst my grandfather's working papers was quite heartening to me because I also have a letter from his father to him before my great grandfather's death complaining quite loudly about his failure to pay on the loan. Well, it turns out all the sons owed several thousand dollars each at the time of great grandpa's death so my own fellow wasn't the only not paying the loans. Two other places in the estate process to look for hints would be those persons who posted bond for the administrators/executors with the court, and those persons chosen by the court to "lay off" the widow's dower lands. While the admin/executors bonds would often be posted by relatives, those laying off the dower lands would generally not be, particularly not a beneficiary -- who might be tempted to work it out so he could get the better land -- more fertile, water supply, best wood -- as would be desired. Best Regards, Janet Hunter In a message dated 12/10/2007 1:34:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Hdanw@aol.com writes: Linda writes: Hello List members , I don't know if anyone can help me out or not with this question, but it's worth a try.? Could an heir to an estate be a?witness the the inventory of the deceased person's estate?? In other words, if my ancestor, John Doe, dies without a will, can John Doe's son sign as a witness on?the inventory of his father's estate? Thanks for any help, Linda Monticelli Trying to help, this is my response: I am not sure about a *witness* to an inventory. One of the first administrations I ran across was in a Jackson Purchase county of Kentucky. The deceased had died rather suddenly, it seems, and his just-married son was appointed administrator by the court. [check the court orders, in Kentucky called Court Order Book; in Virginia, just an order book]. As such he and I believe two other fellows conducted the inventory and then the son held an estate sale. Try to check the court documents preceding the inventory and then check the court records for an estate sale. Also note who attends the estate sale and who purchases items. They are generally neighbors and some may even be relatives. In the estate sale to which I refer, the daughter of the deceased bought a saddle. My teachers of genealogy have taught me well: Collect the neighbors. They may have been neighbors in a previous residence, and some may even be in-laws--or soon will be. One genealogist from the Salt Lake City area says, Do a mini-census. She means collect the neighbors!!! I hope you will find a deed in which the heirs distribute the land. That may be interesting. Sometimes you find the heirs of the deceased have moved to *foreign parts*--an adjoining State or to a new State which is offering cheap land! E.W.Wallace **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

In a message dated 12/10/2007 5:36:16 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, rlmlfm@aol.com writes: There is so little information on this family that it sometimes seems as though they didn't really exist. LOL Know the feeling! Cathy Marin Co., CA **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

Rick, Thank you for responding so?quickly and?your very helpful reply to my query. Linda -----Original Message----- From: Fredric Z. Saunders <fzsaund@ix.netcom.com> To: rowanroots@rootsweb.com Sent: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 8:31 pm Subject: Re: [ROWANROOTS] Estate Inventory question Inventories would be signed by the administrator or executor as approving the inventory. The witnesses could be anyone of age to testify in court, and would often be someone handy, as a relative or neighbor. So, the answer to your question is yes. A person can be both an heir and sign as a witness to the inventory. Rick Saunders No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1178 - Release Date: 12/8/2007 11:59 AM ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROWANROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003

Cathy, Thanks so much for your quick response and helpful information.? There is so little information on this family that it sometimes seems as though they didn't really exist. Thanks again, Linda -----Original Message----- From: CYLGowdy@aol.com To: rowanroots@rootsweb.com Sent: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 8:28 pm Subject: Re: [ROWANROOTS] Estate Inventory question In a message dated 12/9/2007 5:25:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, rlmlfm@aol.com writes: I don't know if anyone can help me out or not with this question, but it's worth a try.? Could an heir to an estate be a?witness the the inventory of the deceased person's estate?? In other words, if my ancestor, John Doe, dies without a will, can John Doe's son sign as a witness on?the inventory of his father's estate? I've known it to happen, and have been challenged for the example by others (can't remember; too many records in my files) but it wasn't "usual". I wouldn't discount it as a possibility, but keep looking for other evidence. Cathy Marin Co., CA **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROWANROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003

Linda writes: Hello List members , I don't know if anyone can help me out or not with this question, but it's worth a try.? Could an heir to an estate be a?witness the the inventory of the deceased person's estate?? In other words, if my ancestor, John Doe, dies without a will, can John Doe's son sign as a witness on?the inventory of his father's estate? Thanks for any help, Linda Monticelli Trying to help, this is my response: I am not sure about a *witness* to an inventory. One of the first administrations I ran across was in a Jackson Purchase county of Kentucky. The deceased had died rather suddenly, it seems, and his just-married son was appointed administrator by the court. [check the court orders, in Kentucky called Court Order Book; in Virginia, just an order book]. As such he and I believe two other fellows conducted the inventory and then the son held an estate sale. Try to check the court documents preceding the inventory and then check the court records for an estate sale. Also note who attends the estate sale and who purchases items. They are generally neighbors and some may even be relatives. In the estate sale to which I refer, the daughter of the deceased bought a saddle. My teachers of genealogy have taught me well: Collect the neighbors. They may have been neighbors in a previous residence, and some may even be in-laws--or soon will be. One genealogist from the Salt Lake City area says, Do a mini-census. She means collect the neighbors!!! I hope you will find a deed in which the heirs distribute the land. That may be interesting. Sometimes you find the heirs of the deceased have moved to *foreign parts*--an adjoining State or to a new State which is offering cheap land! E.W.Wallace **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

In a message dated 12/9/2007 5:25:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, rlmlfm@aol.com writes: I don't know if anyone can help me out or not with this question, but it's worth a try.? Could an heir to an estate be a?witness the the inventory of the deceased person's estate?? In other words, if my ancestor, John Doe, dies without a will, can John Doe's son sign as a witness on?the inventory of his father's estate? I've known it to happen, and have been challenged for the example by others (can't remember; too many records in my files) but it wasn't "usual". I wouldn't discount it as a possibility, but keep looking for other evidence. Cathy Marin Co., CA **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

Hello List members , I don't know if anyone can help me out or not with this question, but it's worth a try.? Could an heir to an estate be a?witness the the inventory of the deceased person's estate?? In other words, if my ancestor, John Doe, dies without a will, can John Doe's son sign as a witness on?the inventory of his father's estate? Thanks for any help, Linda Monticelli ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003

Inventories would be signed by the administrator or executor as approving the inventory. The witnesses could be anyone of age to testify in court, and would often be someone handy, as a relative or neighbor. So, the answer to your question is yes. A person can be both an heir and sign as a witness to the inventory. Rick Saunders No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1178 - Release Date: 12/8/2007 11:59 AM

Hi, while you're looking for Cartners, I'm looking for a Cortner, Courtner, or Curtner....who knows with all the crazy spellings. William Farmer and Barbary Cortner are buried in Ohio with Adam Coppess and his wife Mary Mock. Adam is the son of Bolzer Coppess (Cobes, Coppis, Copes,etc.) Adam and Mary (Parents Devault Mock, Phoebe Clinard) left Guilford Co. around 1800 for Ohio. Here's an excerpt from a post my cousin made on another forum. I am looking for the connection of these 2 names in Guilford county. William Farmer married Barbary Courtner in 1812 in Montgomery co OH. They were both born in NC. I have found who I believe is Barbary's dad...DANIEL CURTNER b:1763 in Guilford co NC. Daniel m: Catherine Coble b: 1758. I have record of issue of the males: John b: 1789; Peter b: 1799; Daniel b: 1802 all born in NC. They all died in Ohio. Barbary may have gone by another name too .... PRUDENCE Curtner(Courtner). Good luck and thanks! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: <gdvedmonds@aol.com> To: <rowanroots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [ROWANROOTS] Cartner to Glinda > Thank you Ann!? I never thought to look for these spellings.? I will check > them out.? Your help is appreciated :) > ~Glinda > > -----Original Message-- > From: Ann Propst <annsid@citcom.net> > To: rowanroots@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 12:06 pm > Subject: Re: [ROWANROOTS] Cartner to Glinda > > > > Glinda - > > Suggest trying the surnames of Gairtner/Cotner - i.e. Jacob b. 1730 PA or > Germany d. 1799-1806 Lincoln Co., NC > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - > http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ROWANROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Joan, If you will send me your mailing address I will send you a Harbin paper. I don't know that I have your address anymore. My printer is down so I can mail. It may have a Caswell that you do not have. Betty G. oretical question and since you folks are so good at sharing opinions, I would like to throw it out to everyone because I am at a loss on how to handle it. > > The HARBIN lines mostly go back to southern MD and were originally from > Dorset and Somerset, England. However, there were families about the same > time in Berks County, PA, whose name was originally HERBEIN or HARBEIN or > HERBINE or HARBINE., and they hailed from Germany & pretty much stayed > right in Berks, or went to OH via Washington Co., MD. They varied their > spellings at will and in some cases the final "e" of the HARBINE got > dropped which made it HARBIN, so I of necessity have had to pursue them to > some extent. Generally, if I see a HARBIN with ancestors from PA, I drop > them. > > I am wondering how I should enter these German guys in my program though > so that they will all appear under one name regardless of how they are in > censuses, etc. I've entered many of them with the original spelling > (e.g. HERBEIN) but a note in one of the elective fields that the name > appears in records as (e.g. HARBINE), but that almost seems to be doing it > backwards to me. But if I enter them the way I find them in records (with > a note of their true origins in an elective field) , I am going to wind up > with several alpha listings instead of one grouping. > > Will someone please clear my confused thinking once and for all? Thank > you. > > Joan Marie > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ROWANROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message