-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Theodore W. Roper married to Rhoda Ann Kelley Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 19:25:05 -0700 From: [email protected] To: [email protected] This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Roper Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/kgDBAEB/784.1 Message Board Post: Douglas: I do NOT have any specific knowledge or information regarding this family, EXCEPT that I would recommend to you the data which is readily available from the United States Census and from which some additional inferences might be drawn. First, from the 1880 Census we find that Theodore's parents were both born in ENGLAND: United States Census -- 1880 Eureka, Jefferson, Nebraska, Page 21 15 Jun 1880 Line 14, Dwelling 3, Family 3, ROPER, Theodore, White, Male, Age 27, Head, Married, Farmer, Born MO, Father Born England, Mother Born England Line 15, Dwelling 3, Family 3, ROPER, Rhoda, White, Female, Age 24, Wife, Married, Born IL, Father Born IL, Mother Born PA Line 16, Dwelling 3, Family 3, ROPER, Charles F., White, Male, Age 4, Son, Single, Born NE, Father Born MO, Mother Born IL Line 17, Dwelling 3, Family 3, ROPER, Albert, White, Male, Age 3, Son, Single, Born KS, Father Born MO, Mother Born IL [Image 2 of 8 at the Ancestry.com presentation of Census data for this jurisdiction.] Though this record also ASSERTS that he was born in MISSOURI, I am NOT particularly confident that this is actually TRUE for reasons discussed below. * Accordingly, I would be inclined to think that we would be looking for a ROPER family with both parents born in England, which was residing in the Illinois or Missouri area circa 1852. However, I would also caution you against any firm resolve that Theodore W. ROPER was actually born in St. Louis, Missouri, as represented. I would NOT accept that assertion as FACT even if that seems to be what was represented in the Census data. I would encourage you to remain open to the possibility that Theodore W. ROPER might have actually been born in ENGLAND and merely found it CONVENIENT to represent that he had been born in the United States. * I would suggest four approaches to finding Theodore's parents. First, I would accept all of the assertions from the 1880 Census records as TRUE and look for a ROPER family residing in Illinois or Missouri at the date of the 1850 Census. I include "Illinois" as well as Missouri, because in the 1870 Census enumeration, Theodore ROPER is shown to be living in Big Sandy, Jefferson County, Nebraska, at age 17, and his place of birth is shown in that Census record to be ILLINOIS rather than Missouri. Second, I would accept all of the assertions as TRUE with the additional assumption that this ROPER family might have arrived in America AFTER 1850 but BEFORE Theodore's birth in 1852. I would then look for candidates in Illinois, Missouri, Nebraska and Kansas in the 1860 Census. Third, I would relax the assumption and consider the possibility that Theodore was actually born in England and arrived in America with his family as a young boy, possibly even after 1860. To this end, I would look for a male ROPER child of the correct age in the 1860 Census born in ENGLAND and would look for English ROPERs near where Theodore ROPER is found in the 1870 Census enumeration, on the theory that he would not have ventured very far from home at age 17. Finally, I would consider the likelihood that Theodore's migration to Nebraska and Kansas and possibly even Colorado may have paralleled the migration of his parents or brothers and would look for other nearby ROPERs of English origin near where Theodore ROPER was residing in 1880. * Looking at the 1850 Census, there is really only ONE ROPER family which seems to be a singularly good candidate to have been that of Theodore ROPER based upon the criteria identified above. That is the family of Joseph and Sarah ROPER, of Naples, Scott County, Illinois. This family consists of Joseph ROPER, age 49 (b abt 1801), Sarah, age 47 (b abt 1803), William, age 20 (b abt 1830), Robert, age 11, Caroline, age 7, and Thomas, age 5. Joseph, Sarah and William were each born in England. Robert, Caroline, and Thomas are each shown to have been born in Illinois. We may infer from the ages and places of birth that this family must have come to America after William's birth about 1830, but before Robert's birth about 1839. We would expect to find them in the 1840 Cesnus but probably NOT in the 1830 Census. And they were probably enumerated in the 1831 Census of England. William is old enough to have been Theodore's father. Sarah is probably NOT too old to have at least one more child in 1852. It isn't readily apparent what became of Joseph and Sarah ROPER and their son William. I do NOT find any clear traces of this family in the 1860 Census. There are NO OTHER ROPERs who are similarly compelling candidates based upon the 1850 Census. There ARE a few English ROPERs in Ohio, New York and Pennsylvania who COULD HAVE migrated to Missouri after 1850, but none of these are already in place. Missouri would have been a very natural migration path for Ohio ROPERs and a number of these went that route following the Ohio River downstream to the Mississippi and then following the Missouri River upstream. * The 1860 Census enumeration presents us with some new possibilities. First, is the family of Sion and Sese (or Sefe) ROPER, residing in Spring, Boone County, Illinois (Belvidere Post Office). Sion is age 48 and his wife is 45. Children are Resa, age 9, and Spencer, age 15. It is unclear why the younger female Resa is listed before the older male Spencer, but the sequence suggests that Spencer may NOT be Sion's son. ALL members of this household were born in England. But there are NO CHILDREN of Theodore's approximate age and it seems a little unlikely that an eight year old child would have been sent away to live in a different household. The Sion ROPER appearing in Illinois is very clearly the SAME Sion ROPER found in the 1851 English Census residing at Wetheringsett, Suffolk. The 1851 Census record clarifies that his wife's name is actually Sophia. This couple was shown to be age 41 (b abt 1810) and 42 (b abt 1809), respectively in 1851. The children shown in the 1851 Census record are Julia, age 18, Edwin, age 16, Horace, age 15, Annah, age 12, John, age 11, Spencer, age 9, Laura, age 6, and Fanny, age 4. The Edwin ROPER, age 26, shown on the immediate preceeding Census page in 1860, who is shown to be born in ILLINOIS, can only be Sion's son Edwin, born in Debenham, Suffolk about 1835. Also residing within this same township in 1860 is the family of Thomas and Rhoda ROPER, aged 33 and 34, respectively. Thomas (b abt 1827) and Rhoda ROPER (b abt 1826) have six children living in their household: James, age 13, Joseph, age 11, Charles, age 8, Walter, age 6, Ellen, age 4, and Frederick, age 4/12. The eldest son, James is shown to have been born in England. The youngest child, Freeric is shown to have been born in Illinois. THERE IS NO INDICATION AS TO THE PLACE OF BIRTH OF JOSEPH, CHARLES, WALTER AND ELLEN. One possibilty that bears considering is that Rhoda may have been Thomas ROPER's second wife. She may have married THomas ROPER in Illinois and might have been the mother of Frederick. She KNEW that the eldest son was born in England, but did NOT KNOW precisely WHERE the other younger children were born within the United States. This theory is supported by the appearance within the IGI of a marriage record showing the marriage of a Thomas ROPER to Rhoda NUTTALL on 30 Apr 1859, at Boone, Illinois. [IGI Batch No. M730351] The most compelling English candidate to be this Thomas ROPER is the Thomas ROPER, shown to be age 40 in the 1851 English Census enumeration and residing within his father's household in Derby St Alkmund, Derbyshire. Though this Thomas ROPER's age is rather significantly DIFFERENT (b abt 1801 rather than b abt 1827) there is a son named James, who is precisely the CORRECT age, at 4. This Thomas ROPER's father is James ROPER, age 70. Thomas ROPER's wife is Elizabeth, who is shown to be age 25. This seems to be a Nottingham ROPER family displaced to Derbyshire. The THomas and Elizabeth ROPER family incuded these children in 1851: Elizabeth, age 10; Mary, age 8; Thomas, age 6; James, age 4; and Anne, age 8. It is unclear why Anne is out of age sequence in the enumeration. The IGI informs us that this is James Twyball ROPER (Chr 04 MAR 1848 - Saint Alkmund, Derby, Derby, England) [IGI Batch No. C055371], son of Thomas and Elizabeth ROPER. The elder brother is Thomas Twible ROPER (Chr 23 NOV 1845 - Saint Alkmund, Derby, Derby, England). Anna may be Rosanna ROPER (01 OCT 1846 - Saint Alkmund, Derby, Derby, England), daughter of Joshua and ELizabeth ROPER, perhaps a niece who has been adopted. A Sarah ROPER (b 02 JUN 1849, Chr 01 JUL 1849 - Saint Alkmund, Derby, Derby, England) is also shown to be a daughter of THomas and Elizabeth ROPER. The elder THomas appears likely to be the Thomas ROPER (Chr 08 AUG 1802 - Langar Cum Barnston, Nottingham, England), shown to be a son of James and Ann ROPER [IGI Batch No. C044831]. Unfortunately, the trouble with this ascription is that the Thomas and Elizabeth ROPER family seems to still be residing at St. Alkmund, Derbyshire, at the date of the 1861 English Census. They also have a son John, age 9, a son William, age 5 (b abt 1856), a daughter Sarah, age 3, and a son Henry, who is shown to be 2 months old at the date of the enumeration. Accordingly, it appears to me that the ascription doesn't seem to really match the Thomas ROPER family of Illinois. Now here is an interesting coincidence, though. You have asserted that Theodore's middle initial is "W". Does the "W" stand for Walter?? Here is a child Walter ROPER, age 6, within the Thomas and Rhoda ROPER family in Illinois, who is roughly the CORRECT AGE to be Theodore W. ROPER. And he has parents both born in England. He also has a brother named "Charles", which seems to have been the name of Theodore's first son. And coincidentally, his mother's name appears to be "Rhoda", the SAME given name of the girl he marries! There does NOT appear to be a particularly compelling candidate for this same Thomas ROPER within the 1850 United States Census. The best choices would seem to be Thomas ROPER of East Boston and Thomas ROP, age 26, of St. Louis, Missouri. The former was shown to be born in England and the latter was shown to be born in Ireland. Next, we have the household of John and Meram ROPER, of Aledo, Mercer County, Illinois, age 30 (b abt 1830) and 29 (b abt 1831), respectively. This couple has three children: John W., age 8, Nancy E., age 6, and George L. (or P.), age 1. John, Meram and John W. are shown to have been born in England. Nancy and George were born in Illinois. In Montezuma, Pike County, Illinois, are "A. ROPER", age 29, William ROPER, age 20, and "H. A. ROPER" age 15. The elder two are male and born in England. Both are shown to be plasterers. The younger "H. A. ROPER" is female and born in Missouri. There are no younger children in this household. There is also a Wade and Anne ROPER, in Montezuma, Pike County. Wade is age 25 and Ann is 23. Both were born in England. They have two daughters, Clara E., age 3, and M. O., age 1. George and Harriett ROPER, of Leavenworth, Kansas, age 30 (b abt 1830) and 25 (b abt 1825), respectively, are also both born in England. George is also a plasterer, and by occupation seems likely to be related to the Pike County ROPERs. George and Harriett have two children: William F., age 5 and born in England, and Florence, age 3 and born in New York. It therefore appears that this couple left England after 1865 but before 1867 and came to Kansas from New York after 1867. The family of Philip and Mary ROPER, of St. Louis, Missouri is certainly in the RIGHT PLACE. Philip was age 38 (b abt 1822) and Mary was 34 (b abt 1826) in 1860. I am unable to discern the names of the first and third child. The middle child is Catharine, age 7. It is probably sufficient, though, to note that the eldest child is a female of age 12 and the youngest is a male of age 2. The index seems to indicate that the eldest is Ann. ALL SEEM TO HAVE BEEN BORN IN ENGLAND. This is the entire universe of ROPER families of English origin in the Illinois, Missouri, Kansas areas in 1860. * One interesting clue is that Walt ROPER (b abt 1854), son of Thomas and Rhoda ROPER, drops completely out of sight in 1870. But the theory that Walter ROPER and Theodore W. ROPER might be one and the same seems to be dashed by the reappearance of Walter ROPER in the household of Byron and Nellie BENNETT in 1880. Nellie seems to be the Ellen ROPER shown in the 1860 Census record. But both Walter and Nellie appear not to have aged as much as expected. Walter is 25 and Nellie is 22 in 1880. * But in 1880, we have yet another clue. Thomas ROPER, age 50 (b abt 1830 - ENGLAND), Charles ROPER, age 28 (b abt 1852 - ENGLAND), Frederick ROPER, age 20 (b abt 1860 - Illinois), William J., age 17 (b abt 1863 - Illinois), and Reuben, age 14 (b abt 1866 - Illinois) all turn up in Washington County, Kansas, which is the county to the immediate SOUTH of Jefferson County, Nebraska. William J. and Reuben are also expressly identified as "Son"s of Thomas ROPER. * In attempting to ascribe the correct birthplace and parents for Theodore W. ROPER, we may also look at evidence in extant records of Theodore's sons. In the 1900 Census, there is a Census record for a Charles F. ROPER, age 25, born Aug 1874 or 75, residing with wife Flosy C. ROPER, age 25, born Dec 1874, and brother-in-law Percy CLARK, age 16, born May 1884 (this record is incorrectly Indexed at Ancestry as a "Charles C. ROPER". CHarles F. ROPER is shown to have been born in NEBRASKA to parents born in ENGLAND and MICHIGAN. Flosy is shown to have been born in Iowa to parents born in Ohio and Indiana. In 1910, there is a Charles H. ROPER, age 35, married 10 years, with wife Flor E. ROPER, age 36, residing in Ward 1 (University Place), Lancaster County, Nebraska. THey have three children: C??? R., age 9; Helen M., age 7; and Max E. age 4, all born in Nebraska. Charles H. ROPER is shown to have been born in Nebraska to parents born in ENGLAND and Illinois. Florence is shown to have been born in Iowa to parents born in Ohio and Iowa. In 1920, Charles H. and Floy E. ROPER, age 45 and 46, are still shown to be living in University Place, Lancaster County, Nebraska. Charles ROPER is still shown to have been born in Nebraska to parents born in ENGLAND and Illinois. The children's names are shown to be Reginald C., age 18, Marguerite, age 16, and Max E. ROPER, age 14. In 1930, Charles H. and Loy E. ROPER, age 55 and 56, are in Lincoln, Lancaster County, Nebraska (The record is incorrectly indexe as "Clas H ROEPR"). Charles H. ROPER has his birthplace as Nebraska and his parents birthplaces as ENGLAND and Illinopis, as before. In the 1900 Census, there is a Census record for an Albert ROPER, age 19 or 20, born Sep 1880. He is shown to have been born in KANSAS to parents born in Indiana and Illinois. This Albert ROPER is a barber and is a roomer in an Omaha rooming house. In the 1920 Census, there is a Census record for an Albert ROPER, age 42 (b abt 1878), born KANSAS, whose FATHER is asserted to have been born in OHIO and whose mother is asserted to have been born in ILLINOIS. He is married to a Rosa ROPER, age 44, born in Nebraska. They are residing in Franklin, Filmore County, Nebraska. This is the County to the immediate Northwest of the county where Theodore ROPER first seems to appear in 1870 and near where brother Charles seems to be living. In the 1930 Census, Albert W. and Rosa M. ROPER, age 53 and 54, are enumerated again in Franklin, Fillmore County, Nebraska. Albert still shows his place of birth as Kansas with Father born in MISSOURI and Mother born in Illinois. Charles ROPER seems to consistently assert in the Census records that his father was born in ENGLAND. Younger brother Albert ROPER shows his father's birthplace variously as Indiana, Ohio, and Missouri. While the 1870 Census record for Theodore says "Illinois" and the 1880 Census record says "Missouri", for all we know this information might have been furnished to a Census enumerator by another member of the household who did not know the correct answer. * Tying up a few other loose ends, it is probably noteworthy that an "Ancestral File" available at the LDS website ( http://www.familysearch.com ) shows Theodore W. ROPER's full name as Theodore William ROPER. The reliability of this information is a bit uneven, but it bears mention. This presents the possibility that one of the records in the English Civil Registration Index for a birth of a William ROPER might also be relevant. There are three William ROPER births shown to have been recorded during the June Quarter 1852: William ROPER recorded Beaminster District, Dorset Somerset, at Volume 5a, Page 381; William ROPER recorded at Southampton District, Hampshire, at Volume 2c, Page 23; and the William ROPER recorded at West Bromwich District, Shropshire, at Volume 6b, Page 569. Someone with a keen interest in this family might want to obtain and check those records. * We must also NOT discount the possibility that Theodore ROPER (b abt 1853) might have been the SON (or other relative) of Hannah HELVEY, age 32 (b abt 1838 - ENGLAND), in whose home he was residing in Big Sandy, Jefferson County, Nebraska, in 1870. Hannah is married to Thomas HELVEY, age 35. Hannah is shown to have been born in England and the eldest HELVEY child is age 9. But checking the 1860 Census, we find that Thomas and Hannah HELVEY were already married in 1860 and had a child Harriett, age 1, who seems NOT to have survived. They were living in Jones County, Nebraska Territory that year at the Daniels Ranch. It doesn't seem to make much sense that Hannah might have remarried but NOT had her son with her in 1860 if she was in fact a ROPER before. Some further investigation as to what became of Hannah HELVEY is probably indicated. * If Theodore W. ROPER was actually born in ENGLAND, we must not rule out the possibility that he travelled to America as a young man WITHOUT his parents. The single best candidate by age, would appear to be Theodore ROPER, age 9, residing in the household of his parents Christopher and Allison ROPER, ages 36 and 35, in Berwick upon Tweed, Northumberland, in the 1861 English Census enumeration. Other children included John ROPER, age 14, James ROPER, age 11, Elizabeth ROPER, age 11, Frank ROPER, age 4, and David ROPER, age 1. This Theodore ROPER doesn't seem to be in England in 1871! This seems most likely to be the Theodore Taylor ROPER, whose birth was recorded at Volume 10b, Page 272, in Berwick District, Northumberland during March Quarter 1852. * Finally, I would close with the thought that I have been UNABLE to find ANY TRACE that a Theodore William ROPER was in the United States at the date of the 1860 United States Census OTHER THAN the indications shown above. And I am fairly accomplished at finding even obscure and poorly indexed records. For this reason, I am more inclined to believe the assertions appearing within Charles ROPER's Census records that Theodore was born in ENGLAND. You mention in your post that the place of death was Burlington, Colorado. I would caution you against accepting the assertion that the place of birth was St. Louis, EVEN IF THIS APPEARED on Theodore ROPER's death certificate. Bear in mind that personal information appearing on death certificates is usually furnished to local authorities by members of the immediate family. If Albert ROPER was the person furnishing the information, we can see that he might have indicated something other than England. A rather central question I have is whether Theodore's wife Rhoda predeceased him or whether she was alive at the date of his death. One would expect that Rhoda would have had the BEST INFORMATION regarding Theodore's origins. If she predeceased him, then Charles probably had the next best inforation, with Albert, as the youngest child, probably having the least direct information regarding his father's origins. * * * Is there other information you can share with us regarding this Theodore ROPER's life. What else do you know of his wife Rhoda or his descendants? If you know of a male ROPER-surnamed descendant, we also might be able to make some strong inferences about Theodore ROPER's origins by obtaining a DNA test sample from one of his descendants. There is an ongoing ROPER DNA Study supervised by Dr. L. David ROPER. For more information on that study, see his site at http://www.roperld.com .