This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Roper, Nutall, Nuthall, Goldsmith, Bloomfield, Leggett, Last, Jeffreys, Osborn, Osborne, Bugg Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/kgDBAEB/785.10 Message Board Post: Amongst the very earliest ROPERs in Illinois was Thomas ROPER (b 19 AUG 1826, Chr 11 SEP 1826 - Bedfield, Suffolk, England, d aft 1880 - Poss KS). He first apppears within the United States Census at age 33 in 1860, residing with wife Rhoda in Spring Township, Boone County, Illinois: United States Census -- 1860 Spring, Boone County, IL (Belvidere Post Office), Page 427 23 Jun 1860 Line 1, Dwelling 472, Family 465, Thos. ROPER, Age 33, Male, Farmer, RE $1,200, Pers. Estate $500, Born England Line 2, Dwelling 472, Family 465, Rhoda ROPER, Age 34, Female, Wife, Born England Line 3, Dwelling 472, Family 465, James ROPER, Age 13, Male, Born England, Attends School Line 4, Dwelling 472, Family 465, Joseph ROPER, Age 11, Male, PLACE OF BIRTH NOT SHOWN, Attends School Line 5, Dwelling 472, Family 465, Charles ROPER, Age 8, Male, PLACE OF BIRTH NOT SHOWN, Attends School Line 6, Dwelling 472, Family 465, Walter ROPER, Age 6, Male, PLACE OF BIRTH NOT SHOWN, Attends School Line 7, Dwelling 472, Family 465, Ellen ROPER, Age 4, Female, PLACE OF BIRTH NOT SHOWN, Attends School Line 8, Dwelling 472, Family 465, Frederick ROPER, Age 4/12, Male, Born Illinois [Image 27 of 28 at the Ancestry.com presentation of the 1860 Census data for this jurisdiction.] * In a previous Post "Re: Theodore W. Roper married to Rhoda Ann Kelley" [31 Dec 2005 1:31 AM GMT] at http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=message&r=rw&p=surnames.roper&m=784.1 I had speculated that this Thomas ROPER might have been of Derbyshire origins. But his appearance in such close proximity to Sion and Mary Sophia ROPER, who I have demonstrated were from Suffolk, is suggestive otherwise. Although Thomas, Rhoda and James are all shown to have been born in England, it does NOT follow that Thomas and Rhoda married there. To the contrary, extant records indicate that Thomas and Rhoda married in Boone COunty, Illinois, int he year immediately prior to the 1860 Census: Thomas ROPER m Rhoda NUTTALL on 30 Apr 1859, at Boone, Illinois. [IGI Batch No. M730351] This explains the gap between the ages of Ellen and Frederick ROPER. While James is shown to have been born in England, a place of birth is NOT given in the 1860 Census record for Joseph, Charles, Wlater and Ellen. * In searching for a Thomas ROPER of the correct age in Suffolk, I found the best match to be: Thomas ROPER (b 19 AUG 1826, Chr 11 SEP 1826 - Bedfield, Suffolk, England), son of Ann ROPER [IGI Batch No. C131711] Another very close match is: Thomas ROPER (Chr 03 JUN 1827 - Redgrave Cum Botesdale, Suffolk, England), son of Osborn and Pleusance ROPER Bedfield is about 10 km due East of Wetheringsett, the place of origin of Sion ROPER, Thomas ROPER's neighbor in Spring TOwnship. Redgrave is about twelve km to the Northwest of Wetheringsett. Searching in the 1841 Census of England, I found a Thomas ROPER of the correct age residing within the household of Lionel and Fanny ROPER: Census of England -- 1841 Bull's Hall, Bedfied, Suffolk Enumeration District 4, Registrar's District Dennington, Superintendent's Registrar's District Hoxne TNA Ref. No. HO107-1025, Image No. 54, Folio No. 6, Page No. 6 Lionel ROPER, Male, Age 50, Ag Labor, Born Within this Same County [Suffolk] Fanny ROPER, Female, Age 30, Born Within this Same County [Suffolk] Mary ROPER, Female, Age 80, Born Within this Same County [Suffolk] Thomas ROPER, Male, Age 15, Born Within this Same County [Suffolk] Walter ROPER, Male, Age 8, Born Within this Same County [Suffolk] [The original image of this Census record may be obtained online from at the subscription based web site of OriginsNetwork.com.] There is also a somewhat older Thomas ROPER, age 18, an Ironmonger's Apprentice, residing within the household of David and Emma GOLDSMITH at Corn Hill, in Bury St. Edmonds, Suffolk. And there is a somewhat younger Thomas ROPER, age 12, residing with Henry ROPER, age 72, at Barn Field Cottage, Honington, Suffolk. This Henry ROPER appears to be a particularly wealthy farmer. There are a total of twelve Thomas ROPERs age 13 to 17 shown in the 1841 Census. The Thomas ROPER residing within the household of Lionel ROPER is the ONLY one of these who seems to have been born in Suffolk. I was initially inclined to believe that the appearance of the name "Walter" amongst Thomas and Rhoda ROPER's children also supported this ascription (note the appearance of Walton ROPER in the household of Lionel and Fanny ROPER), but for reasons explained below, I no longer believe that this is argument has any merit. There does NOT appear to be any Thomas ROPER living within the household of an Osborn ROPER in 1841. The ascription of Thomas ROPER, of Illinois, as the Thomas ROPER (b 19 AUG 1826, Chr 11 SEP 1826 - Bedfield, Suffolk, England), son of Ann ROPER, is far from certain. It would be a good idea to examine Thomas ROPER's Illinois marriage record and any extant death record, including burial marker to be more confident. It would also probably be a good idea to get a look at the Suffolk death records showing deaths of: Thomas ROPER, death recorded Sep Qtr 1839, Mildenhall District, Suffolk, Vol. 13, Page 219 Thomas ROPER, death recorded March Qtr 1843, Hoxne District, Norfolk/Suffolk, Vol. 13, Page 3?7 * Finding Thomas ROPER in the 1851 Census was somewhat more problematic. One EXPECTED to be looking for a Thomas ROPER with a son James ROPER (b abt 1847) and possibly a Joseph ROPER (b abt 1849). If Joseph ROPER was born in America, we would expect to look for Thomas in the United States in 1850. If Joseph was born in England, then we would expect to find Thomas in Engalnd in 1851. * * * To better understand this family, I looked at the 1870 Census record: United States Census -- 1870 Spring Township, Boone County, Illinois, Page 17*, 18 (Page Imprinted "469") 25 Jul 1870 Line 39, Dwelling 128, Family 124, ROPER, Thomas, Age 43, Male, White, Farmer, RE $4,800, Pers. Estate $800, Born England, Father Foreign Born, Mother Foreign Born Line 40, Dwelling 128, Family 124, ROPER, Roda [Rhoda], Age 44, Female, White, Keeping House, Born England, Father Foreign Born, Mother Foreign Born * Line 1, ROPER, Chs.[Charles], Age 19, Male, White, Farm Help, Born England, Father Foreign Born, Mother Foreign Born, Attends School Line 2, ROPER, Walter, Age 16, Male, White, Farm Help, Born Illinois, Father Foreign Born, Mother Foreign Born, Attends School Line 3, ROPER, Ellin, Age 14, Female, White, At Home, Born Illinois, Father Foreign Born, Mother Foreign Born, Attends School Line 4, ROPER, Fred, Age 10, Male, White, Born Illinois, Father Foreign Born, Mother Foreign Born, Attends School Line 5, ROPER, Mary, Age 8, Female, White, Born Illinois, Father Foreign Born, Mother Foreign Born, Attends School Line 6, ROPER, Wm., Age 6, Male, White, Born Illinois, Father Foreign Born, Mother Foreign Born, Attends School Line 7, ROPER, Ruben, Age 3, Male, White, Born Illinois, Father Foreign Born, Mother Foreign Born Line 8, JAMP?, Percy Age 22, Male, White, Born England, Father Foreign Born, Mother Foreign Born, Attends School * NOTE: Thomas and Rhoda ROPER are enumerated on the SAME Census page as Sion and Mary Sophia ROPER in 1870. [Image 17, 19 of 27 at the Ancestry.com presentation of 1870 Census data for this jurisdiction. NOTE -- Page 18, is OUT OF SEQUENCE and appears at Image 19 rather than Image 18.] As is readily apparent, James and Joseph ROPER are no longer living in their father's household. But now it is asserted that Charles ROPER, age 19 (b abt 1851), was born in ENGLAND. And Charles was YOUNGER than Joseph ROPER. Joseph ROPER is NOT readily identifiable in the 1870 U.S. Census enumeration. * There is precisely ONE Thomas ROPER born in Suffolk who seems to be of the correct age to be Thomas ROPER (b 19 AUG 1826, Chr 11 SEP 1826 - Bedfield, Suffolk, England, d aft 1880 - Poss KS). This is a Thomas ROPER shown to be residing as a Lodger within the household of Charlotte BLOOMFIELD in Cotton, Suffolk. THis Thomas ROPER is shown to have been born in "Bitfield [sic] Suffolk". This seems likely to be a reference to Bedfield (there seems to be no such place as "Bitfield" anyway). Census of England -- 1851 Cotton, Suffolk Cottage, Charlotte BLOOMFIELD, Head, Widow, Female, Age 65, Born Suffolk Cotton George LEGGETT, Grandson, Male, Age 9, Born Suffolk Cotton Thomas ROPER, Ledger, Unm, Male, Age 22, Ag Lab, Born Suffolk Bitfield [Image 24 of 31 at the Ancestry.com presentation of the 1851 Census of England data for this jurisdiction.] This presents two problems. First, this Thomas ROPER appears to be UNMARRIED. And second the eldest children, James and Joseph ROPER, are NOT present in this household. * This problem is readily explained by Thomas ROPER's 1859 marriage to Rhoda NUTALL. The elder ROPER children in the Thomas and Rhoda ROPER household are Rhoda's children, but NOT Thomas ROPER's biological children. Consider this 1851 Census record for William and Rhoda NUTALL in Swindon, Wiltshire: Census of England -- 1851 Bath Street, Swindon, Wiltshire William NUTALL, Head, Married, Male, Age 33, Mechanic, Born Bornet Berry, Wiltshire Rhoda NUTALL, Wife, Married, Female, Age 24, Born Lyddiard, Wilshire James NUTALL, Son, Unm, Male, Age 4, Born Swindon, Wiltshire Joseph NUTALL, Son, Unm, Male, Age 2, Born Swindon, Wiltshire [Image 60 of 73 at the Ancestry.com presentation of the 1851 Census of England data for this jurisdiction.] It therefore appears to me to be LIKELY that ALL of the ROPER children shown in Thomas and Rhoda ROPER's household in 1860 EXCEPT FOR Frederick -- James, Joseph, Charles, Walter, Ellen -- were likely to have been children of William and Rhoda NUTALL. I will leave further proof of this ascription to those with a singular interest in this family. Frederick, Mary, William and Reuben ROPER appear to be children of Thomas and Rhoda (Nutall) ROPER. * * This family next appears in 1880 in Kansas: United States Census -- 1880 Lincoln, Washington County, Kansas, Enumeration District 326, Page 1 (Page Imprinted 573) 01 Jun 1880 Line 24, Dwelling 7, Family 7, ROPER, Thomas, White, Male, Age 50, Married, Farmer, Born England, Father, Born England, Mother Born England Line 25, Dwelling 7, Family 7, ROPER, Charles, White, Male, Age 28, Son, Single, Farmer, Born England, Father Born England, Mother Born England Line 26, Dwelling 7, Family 7, ROPER, Frederick, White, Male, Age 20, Son, Single, Farmer, Born Illinois, Father Born England, Mother Born England Line 27, Dwelling 7, Family 7, ROPER, William, White, Male, Age 17, Son, Single, Farmer, Born Illinois, Father Born England, Mother Born England Line 28, Dwelling 7, Family 7, ROPER, Reuben, White, Male, Age 14, Son, Single, Farmer, Born Illinois, Father Born England, Mother Born England [Image 1 of 29 at the Ancestry.com presentation of 1880 Census data for this jurisdiction.] Again, we see that Charles [Nutall] ROPER was born in England. * * * While the ascription of Thomas ROPER as the son of Ann ROPER remains SPECULATIVE and Ann's relationship with Lionel is also uncertain, it is appropriate to at least explore further where Lionel ROPER fits into the Suffolk ROPER family: Lionel ROPER (06 DEC 1789 - Wetheringsett, Suffolk, England), son of Stephen and Mary ROPER [IGI Batch No. 7710361] Note that this brings Thomas ROPER's family back to Wetheringsett, where we first found Sion ROPER. In turn, Lionel ROPER's father Stephen ROPER would appear to be: Stephen ROPER (Chr 04 JAN 1762 - Wetheringsett, Suffolk, England), son of Robert and Fanny ROPER [IGI Batch No. 7710361] And this Stephen ROPER seems to have married a Mary LAST: Stephen ROPER m Mary LAST on 19 NOV 1782 at Wetheringsett, Suffolk, England [IGI Batch No. 7710361] This seems likely to be the Mary ROPER, age 80, shown in Lionel ROPER's 1841 Census record, so Mary LAST (b abt 1761 - Suffolk). This record seems to explain Mary LAST's origins: Mary LAST (Chr 10 JUN 1762 - Wetheringsett Cum Brockford, Suffolk, England), dau of John and Mary LAST [IGI Batch No. 8719730] Stephen ROPER's father appears likely to be: Robert ROPER (Chr 09 APR 1733 - Wetheringsett, Suffolk, England), son of John and Margaret ROPER [IGI Batch No. 7710361] And this Robert ROPER married a Fanny JEFFREYS: Robert ROPER m Fanny JEFFERYS on 12 DEC 1759 at Wetheringsett, Suffolk, England [IGI Batch No. 7710361] One possible explanation for the parents of this Robert ROPER would seem to be: John ROPER m Margaret OSBORN in 1717 Great Barton, Suffolk [IGI Batch No. A458529] I would use caution with this record as it is a secondary record and the marriage date is far less precise than in other instances. There is also a marriage record showing: John ROOPER m Mary BUGG 25 NOV 1702 at Wetheringsett, Suffolk, England [IGI Batch No. 7710361] This MIGHT be the SAME John ROPER. * * * Someone with a singular interest in this ROPER family might want to make a thorough investigation of extant records proximate to Wetheringsett, including Wills, deeds and other transactional records. It appears to me, though, that Thomas ROPER and Sion ROPER are generally of the SAME ROPER family seated at Wetheringsett, Suffolk, since before 1700. THIS FAMILY ALSO PRESENT AN INTERESTING INSTANCE OF A "SURNAME" BREAK. OF COURSE, THE ELDEST CHILDREN ARE CERTAINLY ROPER'S IN THAT THEY WERE ADOPTED AND RAISED WITHIN THE THOMAS ROPER FAMILY. BUT GENETICALLY THE ELDER CHILDREN SHOULD PROVE TO BE WILTSHIRE NUTALLS. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO OBTAIN DNA TEST SUBJECTS FROM DESCENDANTS OF BOTH THE NUTALL-ROPERS AND THE WETHERINGSETT ROPER FAMILY! * * I would appreciate receiving Posts in Reply from those with additional information about this ROPER family!