This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: waroper Surnames: Roper, Goodwyn Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1923.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Within my original post on John ROPER (b abt 1756-66), of Pendleton, SC, I showed reasons to expect that this John ROPER was probably born between 1756 and 1766. Within that post, I also inventoried various other John ROPERs shown in the 1810 Census to show that this John ROPER seemed to have disappeared from South Carolina by 1810: "There are these John ROPERs enumerated elsewhere within the United States: John ROPER: 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 -- 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 -- 0 - 0 [Edgefield, SC 1810] John ROPER: 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 -- 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 1 -- 0 - 1 [Caswell, NC 1810] John ROPER: 5 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 -- 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 -- 0 - 0 [Mecklenburg, NC 1810] John ROPER: 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 -- 0 - 0 - 3 - 0 - 0 -- 0 - 1 [Petersburg, Dinwiddie, VA 1810] John ROPER: 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 -- 2 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 -- 1 - 6 [Henrico, VA 1810] John ROPER: 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 -- 1 - 0 - 5 - 0 - 0 -- 0 - 3 [New Kent, VA 1810] John ROPER: 1 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 -- 3 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 -- 0 - 0 [Princeton, Worcester, MA 1810] John ROPER: 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 -- 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 -- 0 - 0 [Wilbraham, Hampshire, MA 1810]" However, actually the John ROPER shown in Edgefield, SC, is shown to be age 26-44 (b abt 1766-84), which touches upon the age range estimated for John ROPER (b abt 1756-66), of Pendleton, SC. Edgefield, SC, is rather precisely WHERE David ROPER (b 29 Jun 1742 - VA) seems to have died before 10 Dec 1802. * * * Within the probate records for David ROPER, it is shown that distributions where made to these heirs: "Paid legatees: John Roper $220 " David Roper $110 " Samuel Roper $110 " William Roper $111 " Sarah Roper $42.28 and $60 (later paid her several very small payments) The above sworn to the 18th Jan 1805 " Benjamin Roper $110.26 (paid Jan 18, 1806) Nov 1806 note a payment by rent of the land to the widow Roper for the year 1803 $143.64" "Edgefield, SC, Administration of Estate of David ROPER (d bef 10 Dec 1802)" (10 Mar 2014 8:34AM GMT) http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1859.6/mb.ashx * I have suggested that these might be the children of this David ROPER; Benjamin ROPER (b abt 1766-76) John ROPER (b abt 1766-84) David ROPER Samuel ROPER (b abt 1775-84) William ROPER (d abt 21 Jul 1810) Sarah ROPER (b 1775-84) Daniel ROPER (b abt 1885-90) (youngest minor son, age 10 to 15) See: "Combining the Extant Probate Information for David ROPER (d bef 10 Dec 1802 - SC) and William ROPER (d bef Aug 1810 - SC)" (8 Mar 2014 1:34AM GMT) http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/516.1/mb.ashx * Within another thread, I identified Benjamin ROPER (b abt 1767, d 23 Oct 1845 - Edgefield, SC) as the likely son of David ROPER shown to be the administrator of David ROPER's estate. See: "Distinguishing the Two Benjamin ROPERs Found in Early Edgefield, SC, Records"(27 Mar 2014 7:46PM GMT ) http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1883/mb.ashx "Benjamin ROPER (b abt 1767, d 23 Oct 1845 - Edgefield, SC)" (8 Mar 2014 2:38AM GMT) http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/516.1.1/mb.ashx * * * The probate information for David ROPER (b 29 Jun 1742 - VA, d bef 10 Dec 1802 - Edgefield, SC) shows that David ROPER had a son named John ROPER still living in 1805. IF the children are listed in the probate record in BIRTH ORDER, John ROPER might even be the eldest son (older than Benjamin). Benjamin ROPER may have been named administrator due to his residence in Edgefield, where David ROPER died, and therefore PROXIMITY rather than seniority. If John ROPER was the eldest son, he might have even been born bef 1767, when we believe Benjamin ROPER was probably born. If John ROPER was the second son, he might have been born in 1767 or 1768. Since David ROPER was born in 1742, it is not at all implausible that David might have been married by 1763 and had a child by 1764. Even absent the information from the 1810 Census record for the John ROPER in Edgefield, based solely on the inference that John ROPER was amongst the eldest of David ROPER's children (by the sequence of the legacies paid), we might have expected John ROPER to be born abt 1764-74. * * * The John ROPER enumerated Edgefield is shown to be age 26 to 44 (b abt 1766-84) in 1810: John ROPER: 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 -- 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 -- 0 [Edgefield, SC - 1810] The demographics of this record seem to be that of a YOUNG COUPLE rather than a man at the older end of the age range. But bear in mind that what we know of the ages of those sons we thought had been born to John ROPER, of Pendleton -- James ROPER (b abt 1786 - NC, d bef 1860), John ROPER (b 08 Jan 1788 - NC, d Oct 1863) and David ROPER (b 08 Jun 1792 - SC, d 17 Apr 1878 - Lawrence, MO) -- the YOUNGEST of these would have been age 18 in 1810 and might very well have left the household to seek his fortune on the Tennessee frontier. If John ROPER's first wife had died after 1800, a second wife and younger children might give John ROPER's 1810 household the look of a younger couple. Alternatively, John ROPER's wife might have died and the others in his household could be a widowed daughter, daughter-in-law, niece or other relative and her young children. This is admittedly a speculative explanation as to the differences in the composition of the household of John ROPER, of Pendleton, as compared to John ROPER, of Edgefield. * In my view, the 1810 Census record is somewhat ambiguous as to whether it reflects a younger or an older John ROPER. But the existence of a son of David ROPER named John ROPER who was living in 1805 seems reasonably assured. Thus, we are presented with the probem of if John ROPER of Pendleton, SC, is NOT David ROPER's son, then WHICH OTHER John ROPER could it be?? This is no small problem. Since the legacy was paid directly to John ROPER in 1805 (in fact a double legacy was paid, probably paying John ROPER for Daniel ROPER's share), David's son John had to have been at least age 21 by 1805 (b bef 1785). But listing John ROPER first amongst the legacies supports at least a weak inference that he was the eldest or one of the eldest children. * * * * * NO OTHER COMPELLING JOHN ROPER's SHOWN IN 1800 CENSUS There were precisely THREE (3) John ROPERs shown in the 1800 Census in the United States: John ROPER: 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 -- 3 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 -- 0 - 0 [Princeton, Worcester, MA 1800] John ROPER: 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 -- 3 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 -- 0 - 0 [Fayetteville, Richmond, NC 1800] John ROPER: 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 -- 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 -- 0 - 0 [Pendleton, SC 1800] The John ROPER shown in the Census indices as residing in Johnston County, North Carolina, is a ROSSER. John ROPER, of Princeton, Worcester, MA, is of the Massachusetts ROPER family and simply TOO FAR AWAY. I had previously identified John ROPER, of Richmond County, NC, as the Revolutionary War Veteran son of Jesse ROPER. This record is consistent with the known children of this John ROPER and John ROPER's deposition in support of his Revolutionary War pension application. Thus, of the households headed by a John ROPER in 1800, John ROPER, of Pendleton, SC, seems to be the ONLY plausible candidate to be David ROPER's son. * * * * * NO OTHER COMPELLING JOHN ROPER's SHOWN IN 1790 CENSUS Neither is there any other candidate household readily identifiable in the 1790 Census. There are only THREE (3) households headed by a John ROPER in the United States in 1790: John ROPER: 1 - 1 - 3 -- 0 - 0 [Kent, MD 1790] John ROPER: 1 - 0 - 4 -- 0 - 3 [Edgecombe, Halifax, NC] John ROPER: 1 - 3 - 2 -- 0 [Pendleton, SC 1790] * There were also two John ROSSERs: John ROSSER, Sr.: 1 - 0 - 3 -- 0 - 4 [Chatham, NC 1790] John ROSSER, Jr.: 1 - 3 - 6 -- 0 - 10 [Chatham, NC 1790] * John ROPER, of Halifax, DIED leaving a Will before August 1797 and therefore CANNOT be the John ROPER who collected a legacy from David ROPER's estate in 1805. See: "Will of John ROPER or ROAPER (d bef Aug 1797 - Halifax County, NC)" (30 Jan 2013 10:53AM GMT) http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1770/mb.ashx John ROPER, of Kent, Maryland, cannot be completely ruled out, but seems an unlikely candidate based upon location. * * * * * NO COMPELLING VIRGINIA CANDIDATES Since the 1790 and 1800 Virginia Census returns were LOST, the Census results shown and discussed above EXCLUDE Virginia. But the 1790 and 1800 Tax Lists for Virginia show no other promising candidates either. * There was a John ROPER in New Kent in 1791. He owned 269 acres of land, two slaves and a horse. There is no reason to believe that a son of David ROPER would migrate from Brunswick to New Kent where land was more expensive. This SAME John ROPER is shown in EVERY New Kent Tax List from at least 1782 through 1792 and seems to have been the owner of the property where the ROPER Church was located in New Kent near Old Stage Road and the James City County line. This John ROPER is shown still residing in New Kent in the 1810 and 1820 U.S. Census, each year shown to be age 45 or more. This John ROPER therefore seems to have been born before 1766 based upon the 1810 Census data and based upon the Tax Lists seems likely to have been born before 1762. * There was a John ROPER on the Halifax, Virginia, Tax Lists in 1789, but this is believed to be the John ROPER who moved to Caswell, NC. See: "John Roper, b. bef. 1756; d. aft. 1820, Cumberland, KY" (1 Apr 2014 4:05PM GMT) http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1887/mb.ashx * There was a John ROPER on the Richmond City Tax Lists for 1791, but this John ROPER seems to have died. See: "John ROPER (b abt 1747), of Richmond, VA, Ordinary Keeper" (16 May 2014 1:12AM GMT) http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/804.2/mb.ashx * The John ROPER purported to be shown on the Tax Lists of Prince George, VA, in 1790, as the owner of 112 acres, is actually John ROSSER. * * * In 1800, there is still a John ROPER in New Kent, who is shown to then own 189 acres of land. This John ROPER seems to have one male over 16 years of age (himself) and four (4) horses, mares or colts. While the ROPER Fictionalists are ALWAYS seeking various specious means to connect to New Kent ROPERs, there is simply NO PLAUSIBLE explanation as to WHY we would expect the son of David ROPER (b 29 Jun 1742 - VA, d bef 10 Dec 1802 - Edgefield, SC), of Brunswick, to have settled in New Kent. Moreover, as explained above, this John ROPER seems to have been born before 1762 when David ROPER was only twenty years old. This John ROPER is TOO OLD to be David ROPER's son and IN THE WRONG PLACE. * There is also a John ROPER shown to be residing in Henrico, VA, in 1800, owner of 12 1/2 acres of land, 2 blacks over age 16 and 1 horse. This is John ROPER, son of David ROPER (b 1744, d 1808), of Charles City. * * * It should also be noted that by 1798 ALL ROPERs seemed to have migrated from Brunswick, VA. When someone actually inspects the ANNUAL Brusnwick Tax Lists YEAR BY YEAR, we will know precisely when each ROPER came of age and departed Brunswick. * * * * * FEW OTHER COMPELLING CANDIDATES TO BE JOHN ROPER's FATHER I have discussed above the dearth of other compelling candidates to be David ROPER's SON John ROPER. There is also another way of view the problem and this is to identify and weigh the other most compelling alternative candidates to be John ROPER's (b abt 1756-66) father. While there might seem to be quite a few possibilities, MOST of these are completely FICTITIOUS ROPER ancestors fabricated by the Fictionalists to support various fraudulent lineages. When one ELIMINATES the fictional characters and instead focuses on those ROPER ancestors actually KNOWN to have been still living at the date range of John ROPER's (b abt 1756-66) birth, the number of candidates shrinks to a handful. * I shall begin with Charles ROPER and Ann GOODWYN. Since Charles ROPER's children are ALL purportedly identified in the MOORE Family Bible, the ONLY possibility for Charles ROPER to be the father is if one of the two sons about whom little is known was actually named "John". These include Allen ROPER (b 03 Apr 1756) and Josiah ROPER (b 26 Apr 1760). If one of these had a both first and middle name and later went by "John", either might otherwise fit the age range. But NONE of Charles ROPER's other sons is known to have had a middle name, so this seems to be a stretch. * Of Charles ROPER's son, ONLY David ROPER is old enough to have had a son in John ROPER's (b abt 1756-66) age range. The next eldest son Jesse ROPER (b 31 May 1751) would have been closer in age to John ROPER rather than old enough to be John's father. We can rule OUT Jesse ROPER (b 31 May 1751), William ROPER (b 26 Jun 1753), Charles ROPER (b 19 Apr 1758) and Joel ROPER (b 26 Jun 1766) as John's father. We can rule out Allen ROPER (b 03 Apr 1756) and Josiah ROPER (b 26 Apr 1760) as a FATHER, as well. Allen and Josiah are ONLY possibilities if they were actualy John ROPER themselves. See: "Charles ROPER (d abt 1791) and Ann GOODWYN, of Dinwiddie, Virginia" (13 Aug 2014 10:22PM GMT) http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1937/mb.ashx * James ROPER (b bef 1730, d aft 17 Aug 1781 - Anson, NC), of Northampton, NC and later Anson, NC, was old enough to be John ROPER's father. But this James ROPER died leaving a Will identifying his only two sons Green ROPER and William ROPER. See: "James ROPER's Will (d aft 17 Aug 1781 - Anson, NC)" (27 Dec 2012 6:58PM GMT) http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1754/mb.ashx * Revolutionary War Veteran James ROPER (b abt 1756-60 - Caswell, NC, d 18 Nov 1835 - Simpson, KY) wasn't old enough to be John ROPER's (b abt 1756-66) father. See: "When Was James ROPER (b abt 1756-60, d 18 Nov 1835 - Simpson, KY) Really Born??" (28 Nov 2012 1:51AM GMT) http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1721.4/mb.ashx * James ROPER (b abt 1761-2, d 1833 - Richmond County, NC), of Richmond wasn't old enough to be John ROPER's (b abt 1756-66) father and this James ROPER's children are KNOWN. See: "James ROPER (b abt 1761-2, d 1833 - Richmond County, NC)" (24 Nov 2012 2:31PM GMT) http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1718/mb.ashx * Neither William ROPER, of Caswell, NC, nor John ROPER, of Caswell, NC, were old enough to have been John ROPER's father and there is no evidence that their children migrated to South Carolina. * John ROPER, of Halifax, NC, died leaving a Will and NO MALE HEIRS. See: "Will of John ROPER or ROAPER (d bef Aug 1797 - Halifax County, NC)" (30 Jan 2013 10:53AM GMT) http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1770/mb.ashx * There remain a handful of candidates I have NOT mentioned, largely because I haven't yet made expository posts explaining their history. I will leave it to the Fictionalists to rationalize how they believe John ROPER is related. No doubt, they can INVENT some new fictional ancestor to explain his presence in Pendleton, SC, as they have fabricated missing evidence as to other relationships. * * * * * THE CASE FOR DAVID ROPER SUMMARIZED I would summarize the case that David ROPER (b 29 Jun 1742 - VA) is John ROPER's father as: 1. David ROPER (b 29 Jun 1742 - VA) is KNOWN to have a son probably close to John ROPER's (b abt 1756-66) age range. 2. David ROPER's (b 29 Jun 1742 - VA) son is KNOWN to have been living in 1805, but cannot be otherwise readily explained by extant 1790 and 1800 Census data or Tax Lists. 3. There are only a handful of ROPER ancestors known to have been living in the American South who were old enough to have been John ROPER's (b abt 1756-66) father and who cannot be definitively excluded. 4. David ROPER and William ROPER are KNOWN to have migrated from Brunswick, NC, to Edgefield, SC. David ROPER's brother Jesse ROPER is KNOWN to have migrated from Northampton, NC, to South Carolina. Other of David's, William's and Jesse's sons are KNOWN to have migrated to SC and this was an ESTABLISHED MIGRATION PATH for this branch of the family. Other branches of the ROPER family most followed DIFFERENT migration paths into Kentucky, Tennessee, and Alabama. For example, Shadrach ROPER's sons migrated from Powhatan through the Cumberland Gap into Kentucky. Joseph ROPER's children migrated from Chesterfield, VA, into the upper Tennessee Valley. ROPER of the York Pennensula migrated lated mostly into Alabama. 5. There is some evidence that John ROPER (b abt 1756-66) may have named three of his sons James ROPER, John ROPER and David ROPER. Ewel ROPER may have been another son of John ROPER. 6. John ROPER (b 08 Jan 1788 - NC, d Oct 1863), of Greene and Pulaski Counties, Missouri, named two of his sons William and John. David ROPER (b 08 Jun 1792 - SC, d 17 Apr 1878 - Lawrence, MO), of Greene County, MO, named sons William and David. David ROPER (b 29 Jun 1742 - VA) and William ROPER (b 26 Jun 1753) lived adjacent to one another in Brunswick, NC, near Hickory Run, and later migrated to Edgefield, SC, and again resided near one another in there prior to their death. David ROPER (b 29 Jun 1742 - VA) named three of his six sons John, David and William, names appearing two generations later amongst John ROPER's (b abt 1756-66) grandchildren. * * * * * MOST COMPELLING CANDIDATES TO BE JOHN ROPER's FATHER For the reasons set forth above, it seems to me that David ROPER (b 29 Jun 1742 - VA) is HANDS DOWN the most compelling candidate to be John ROPER's father. I would rate the probability that David is John's father at about 95%. The NEXT most promising candidate would probably be Meredith ROPER, who may be the ONLY other NEARBY candidate KNOWN to possibly be old enough. Several arguments can be made in favor of Meredith ROPER, the single most compelling of which is that Meredith ROPER also settled in Pendleton, SC. I would rate the probability of Meredith as John's father at about 3%. A distant third would be Richard ROPER, of Northampton, NC, but this requires us to ASSUME a marriage prior to the marriage with Ann LEWIS for which there is simply NO EVIDENCE. I would rate the possibility of Richard ROPER as John ROPER's (b abt 1756-66) father at about 0.5% A fourth remote possiblity is that Charles and Ann Goodwyn ROPER's son Allen ROPER (b 03 Apr 1756) was also named John. I mention this as a possibility SOLELY because in several subsequent generations there occasionally appeared a "John Allen ROPER" in the Charles ROPER family. Besides there being NO OTHER evidence of such an ascription, in my view, John ROPER is more likely to be at the LOWER end of the indicated age range (born closer to 1766 than to 1756), making Allen a much more unlikely prospect. I would rate the probability of Allen ROPER being John ROPER at about 0.1%. I would assess that there is about a 1.4% chance that John ROPER's (b abt 1756-66) father is some other ROPER ancestor, perhaps dead well before the records began to show greater clarity, not identified or discussed above. These probabilities are simply my best estimates of the various likelihoods based upon my review of the evidence and admittedly cannot be readily calculated with great precision. They are intended simply to impart relative probabilities of the various possibilities based upon evidence known to me. * * * * * A CLOSING COMMENT ABOUT JOHN ROPER, OF EDGEFIELD, SC In my view, the case for John ROPER (b abt 1756-66) being David ROPER's son is far stronger than the case that the John ROPER found in Edgefield, SC, in 1820 is one and the same John ROPER. John ROPER, of Edgefield, is shown to be age 26 to 44 (b abt 1766-84) in 1810 and his Census record gives the appearance of a young man just starting a family: John ROPER: 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 -- 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 -- 0 [Edgefield, SC - 1810] John ROPER (b abt 1756-66) may have migrated to Tennessee by the date of the 1810 Census and the John ROPER shown in Edgefield that year may have been another different (younger) John ROPER. In my view, the case for John ROPER, of Pendleton, being David ROPER's son does NOT heavily depend upon John ROPER being resident in Edgefield in 1810. One valid argument AGAINST John ROPER's residence in Edgefield, SC, in 1810 is the presence of the woman shown to be age 70 to 79 (1751-60) in the 1830 Census record of John ROAPER, of Monroe, TN. If John ROPER's wife had died before 1810 and he remarried a younger woman, it is difficult to explain the appearance of a woman in this age range in the 1830 Census record. My suspicion is that she is at the younger end of this age range and that the young man in the household may have even erroneously ascribed her age to the Census enumerator. But there seems little doubt that there is a very old woman residing in the John ROAPER household in Monroe and this seems somewhat inconsistent with a second, younger wife. * * * * * Comments, critique, corrections, elaborations and other feedback is solicited and appreciated! If someone knows a better candidate to be the father of John ROPER (b abt 1756-66), I would be most interested in learning of him and the evidence supporting such an ascription! Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board. <br>