This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: batchelorw Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1851.3.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: There appears to be no extant direct evidence of the identity of Meredith Roper's children. No Will or probate files have been found to date which might contain a listing of Meredith's children. However, a circumstantial case can be made in identifying the children of Meredith Roper from the following evidence: Historical associations between Meredith and other persons.. Census records of Rutherford and Burke Counties, NC and of Pendleton District, SC. The pattern of migration of the Meredith and his children. The pattern of names given by Meredith to his children. The availability of Meredith to be the likely candidate to be the father of these children and ruling out alternatives fathers. My discussion will draw upon each of these sources of circumstantial evidence, but not necessarily in the order in which I have listed them. There isn't much that I am reporting that is not already known or that hasn't been discussed in other articles. However, other than L. David Roper's treatment of this subject in his February 8, 1998 article in the Burke County Genealogical Society Journal titled "The Mysterious Meredith/Meriday Roper of NC", I have not seen any recent attempt by anyone to determine who Meredith's children might have been. I am again especially indebted to Bill Roper for his extensive work in documenting the dates and places of birth and death of and for the research he has done on many of the persons mentioned in this article. This does not mean to imply that Bill necessarily agrees with my interpretation of the data or with my conclusions. In fact, we differ in many respects in our interpretations and conclusions. Five males can be identified as the probable children of Meredith Roper: Charles Roper, b. 1751-1755, NC: d. aft 1830, Pickens, SC John Roper, b. 1756-66, NC; d. aft. 1800, Pendleton District, SC. James Roper, bef. 1766, NC; d. 1853, Burke County, NC David Roper, b. 1761-1770, NC; d. aft. 1840, Pickens County, SC Benjamin Roper, b. 1766-74, NC; d. bef. 1832, Pickens County, SC This list of children does not agree with the past "guesses" of L. David Roper. I could be wrong, but I believe that L. David Roper still considers James Roper to be a son of David Roper and Sarah of Caswell, NC. However, L. David Roper's Y-DNA test results match those of the descendant of Gideon Roper, probable son of David Roper, b. 1761-1770, NC, a probable son of Meredith. Also, the L. David Roper Y-DNA test results do not have the mutation that was passed on by David Roper of Caswell to his descendants. Also, my list does not include Daniel, Joshua, or Aaron, which are in the L. David Roper list. Finally, L. David Roper's list does not include John Roper, b. 1756-66, NC. The estimated dates of birth and deaths were calculated from census records (mostly calculated by Bill). The places of birth were determined from statements in the individual's census records or from statements by their descendants. The places of death were generally determined by the last census record in which the probable sons were shown before disappearing. I have also arranged, as best I could with the information that is available, the possible chronological order of the birth of these children in the list above. Notice that the estimated dates (1751-1774) and places of birth (NC) of these five probable sons are consistent with these individuals being of the same family. Meredith appears in the 1790 Rutherford County, NC census. Of the five children mentioned above, only one of them, Benjamin, cannot be accounted for in 1790 census records. Benjamin is the estimated youngest child in this group. Charles Roper and David Roper appear in the 1790 Rutherford County, NC census. James Roper appears in the 1790 Burke County, NC census. John Roper appears in the 1790 Pendleton District, SC census. The 1790 Rutherford County, NC census shows the following for Meredith Roper: Meredith Roper*****3-1-4-0-0 There are three males shown as 16 and up, and one male under <16. One of the males 16 and up would be Meredith Roper. Another of the males who is 16 and up could be Benjamin Roper, b. 1766-74. I can't account for the other male 16 and up. The male who is shown as <16 could be Benjamin Roper, Jr, b. 1785, NC, son of Benjamin Roper, b. 1766-74, NC. Benjamin Roper, b. 1766-74, NC has the highest probability of being the son of Meredith, because Benjamin Roper named a son Meredith Roper, b. 1801, SC; d. aft 1860, Dawson, GA. The 1790 census record is at least consistent with Benjamin Roper being in Meredith's household. The approximate date of Meredith Roper's birth is still a matter of debate. As Bill has stated, the earliest known date for the appearance of Meredith Roper appears to be in 1752, as evidenced by an abstract contained in the L. David Roper article mentioned above, "The Mysterious Meredith/Meriday Roper of NC": "The Granville District of NC 1748-1763, Abst. of Land Grants, V. 2: #3457 p.288 Arthur Harris 25 May 1756 400 acres in Northampton Co. in the Parish of Northwest, joining Rawlins line, Reavise's line, Watts line, Lashleys Run, and Arthur Jordon or: /s/ Arthr Harris. Wits: Montfort Eelbeck, Jno Haywood. Surveyed 11 Apr 1752:date>. SCC: Arthur Jordon, Morriday Roper. J Edwards D Surveyor". Also, a David Roper and a Meredith Roper appear together in Orange County, NC Land Grant, David as the recipient of 422 acres on Rattle Snake Creek, with Meriday Roper and Benjamin Carter as the original surveyors of the land on January 14, 1758: "The Granville District of NC 1748-1763, Abst. of Land Grants, V.2: #2123 p.28 David Roper 22 Jul 1760 422 acres in Orange Co. in the Parish of St. Matthew on both sides of Rattle Snake Creek, joining Alexander Montgomery and a Branch or: /s/ (mark) Wits: Richd Vigers, W Churton. Examined by: Richard Vigers. Surveyed 14 Jan 1758 SCC: Meriday Roper, Benjn Carter. Sherd Haywood Surveyor (L. Roper database)" If Meredith were at least 21 when he conducted his first survey in 1852, he would have been born about 1731. However, Meredith could have been older or he could have been younger. George Washington, the first President, was a surveyor and apparently learned the trade at a very young age: "Among the earliest maps attributed to Washington are sample surveys included in Washington's so-called "School Boy Copy Books," housed in the George Washington Papers in the Manuscript Division of the Library of Congress. The schoolbook includes lessons in geometry and several practice land surveys Washington prepared at the age of sixteen." (From "George Washington: Surveyor and Mapmaker" Annals of the Association of American Geographers 23, no. 3 (September 1941): 147.)" The point to be made is that Meredith Roper born shortly before or after 1732, is not precluded from being the father of the five probable sons listed above whose combined births were from possibly 1751-1774. Another observation to be made about the 1758 survey is the association of Meredith Roper with Benjamin Carter. Not only is Benjamin Carter a surveyor alongside Meredith, but Benjamin Carter owned land on Rattlesnake Creek where David Roper owned land. Also, David can also be seen as the grantee of the land surveyed in 1758. Benjamin Carter may have been related to Meredith Roper or he may have been just friends or co-workers. Meredith did name a son Benjamin. Meredith Roper is also possibly the brother of the David Roper on Rattlesnake Creek, considering their close proximity in time and place. Meredith did name a son David. Meredith is also shown residing in Rutherford County, NC in 1790 at the time that the Revolutionary War David Roper was residing there. This David Roper was probably the son of David Roper and Sarah of Caswell County, NC. Meredith Roper appears in other North Carolina records, but for my purposes of identifying the children of Meredith, I will skip to the 1790 Rutherford County, NC census. This 1790 census has been discussed by Bill and me extensively, with each of holding out for our individual interpretation of the record. For those wishing to read this debate, the postings start on Feb. 19, 2014 with an article titled "David Ropers of Burke County, NC and Pendleton District, SC, Meredith Roper, and Gideon Roper" and continue into postings in March. The 1790 Rutherford County, NC census reveals the following Roper members present: David Roper, Rev. M: 1 (16 up) 1(0-16) F: 5 Charles Roper M: 1 (16 up) 2(0-16) F: 5 Meredeth Roper M: 3 (16 up) 1(0-16) F:4 David Roper, Jr. M:1(16 up) 1(0-16) F:1 The only thing that Bill and I seem to agree on is that one of these David Roper's is the Revolutionary War David Roper, who subsequently moved to Simpson County, KY where he appears there in the 1800 census. Before addressing our conflict in interpretation of this census, I want to again include one other abstract which we have previously discussed and about which Bill and I have differing opinions. This would be the marriage record of David Roper of Rutherford County, NC to Sarah France, an abstract of which is produced here from the L. David Roper database: "The following marriage bond record exists for Rutherford County: Know all men by these presents that we David Roper Junr, Charles Rooper and James Rooper all of the County of Rutherford & State of North Carolina are held & firmly bound unto his Excellency the governor for the time being & Successors in office in the Sum of five hundred pownds Sterling to which payment will & truely to be Made we bind our selves our& Each of our Heirs Exn & admin Jointly & Severally firmly by these presents Sealed With our Seales & Dated this 25 Day of Feb. 1788 The condition of the above obligation is such that whereas the above bounder David Roper Junr hath the Day of the Date have obtained a Marriage License to be Celebrated between him & Sarah France. Now if it Shall here after appear that there is no Lawful Course to obstruct Said Marriage then this obligation to be Void otherwise to be & Remain in full force & Virtue in Law. Given under our hands & Seales the Day above written. Test Shad Hogan" I believe Bill takes the position that Charles Roper shown in the 1790 Rutherford census is probably Charles Roper, II of Dinwiddie County, VA. Also, correct me if I am wrong, I believe Bill takes the position that the other David (not the David Roper who moved to Simpson County, KY) was probably the son of the David Roper who died about 1802 in Edgefield, SC. In reference to Charles Roper, Bill has stated the following: "In my view, an ascription of Charles ROPER, of Rutherford, as Charles ROPER II (b 19 Apr 1758), is reasonably conclusive. The close conformity of the Census record to the ages, gender and county for Charles ROPER's family allows us to make a very strong inference as to Charles ROPER's identity. The ABSENCE of ANY EVIDENCE that there was another Charles ROPER of this age at this time, though much weaker direct support for the inference, still gives us greater confidence that this inference is correct." There is in fact another Charles Roper of this age at this time who next appears in the 1800 Pendleton District, SC census, at the same time that Meredith Roper and Benjamin Roper also appears there: 1800 Pendleton District, SC: Meriday Roper***********0-0-0-0-1*****0-0-1-0-1*****p. 18 Benjamin Roper**********1-0-0-1-0*****0-0-1-0-0*****p. 17 Charles Roper************2-1-0-0-1*****4-2-0-1-0*****p.. 16 John Roper had arrived in Pendleton District by the 1790 census, and is also shown in the 1800 census: 1790 Pendleton District, SC John Roper*************1-3-2-0 1800 Pendleton District, SC**2-2-0-1-0******0-0-1-0-0*****p. 12 The Charles Roper shown in the 1800 Pendleton District, SC is not Charles Roper, b. April 19, 1758, VA. As I argued in a posting dated August 15, 2014 on Roper-L Archives titled "Charles Roper, Jr, Dinwiddie, VA and Charles Roper, Pendleton, SC- Are They the Same Person", the Charles Roper of Pendleton, SC was born 1755 or before in North Carolina. Thus, he could not be the same Charles Roper born April 19, 1758 in Virginia. James Roper appears in the 1790 Burke County, NC census. Before that time, he apparently was in Rutherford County, NC in 1788 to attend the marriage ceremony of his brother David and to be a bondsman along with his brother Charles. After marrying Sarah France, David moved to Burke County, NC, where his brother James was living. Sarah apparently died sometime after the 1810 Burke County, NC census, and David then married Mary Bicknell. David and Mary eventually moved to Pickens County, SC before 1830, probably to be with his brother Charles Roper and the other relatives of his deceased brothers. (See post dated February 19 titled "David Ropers of Burke County, NC and Pendleton District, SC, Meredith Roper, and Gideon Roper".) Thus, with the exception of James Roper, who stayed in Burke County, NC, this entire family moved at one time or another to Pendleton District and Pickens County, SC. Many of the children of these five sons of Meredith were born in North Carolina: Charles Roper- Aaron Roper (b. 1784, NC; d. Sept 17, 1855, Pickens, SC) named a son Charles Roper, and is seen four houses from Charles Roper in 1820 Pickens, SC census. James Roper- all of his children were born in NC since James never left NC. John Roper- the following are possible sons as listed by Bill in a previous post. Two of them are shown born in North Carolina, before John moved to SC: Joseph ROPER (b abt 1775-82) James ROPER (b abt 1786 - NC) John ROPER (b 08 Jan 1788 - NC, d Oct 1863) David ROPER (b 08 Jun 1792 - SC, d 17 Apr 1878 - Lawrence, MO) Ewel ROPER (b abt 1791-1800 - SC) David Roper- David , like James, stayed in North Carolina until he moved to SC before 1830. Thus, his children would have been born in NC. The pattern of migration indicates that Meredith and his wife probably followed their children to Pendleton District, SC. John Roper first arrived there in 1790. Charles Roper and Benjamin arrived in Pendleton District by 1800, along with Meredith and his wife, who were getting old. Meredith would not have moved to Pendleton to start a new life and plantation. He and his wife would want to be near their children. If all these individuals (Charles Roper, John Roper, James Roper, David Roper, and Benjamin Roper) are not the sons of Meredith, whose sons are they? 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