This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: waroper Surnames: Roper, Fincher Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1903.4/mb.ashx Message Board Post: In my previous post regarding James ROPER, I identified the James ROPER shown in the 1820 U.S. Census for Mecklenburg, NC, as a likely son of Jesse and Obedience ROPER. I showed that Jesse ROPER seemed to die in Mecklenburg, or, at least, that his estate was probated there. The focus on Mecklenburg as Jesse ROPER's last residence also necessarily focused our attention on all other Mecklenburg ROPER families and records. Foremost amongst these are the records associated with John ROPER (b 24 Feb 1763-6, d 25 Jul 1852 - AL), who is enumerated in the U.S. Census residing in Mecklenburg in both 1810 and 1820. In the 1820 Census enumeration, this John ROPER is enumerated immediately adjacent to James ROPER, suggesting a close geographic proximity. I am therefore giving a brief sketch of this John ROPER within this thread, but given the significance of Revolutionary War Veteran John ROPER (b 24 Feb 1763-6 - Brunswick, VA, d 25 Jul 1852 - Oak Level, Cleburne, AL) and of the need to reassess at least some of what is generally believed about him, I will post a more fulsome thread dedicated to this John ROPER in the near future. This sketch is therefore intended mostly to show that the John ROPER found in the Census in 1810 and 1820 in Mecklenburg is the War Veteran and also to show his connection to Jesse ROPER and James ROPER. By 1810, John ROPER already had a fairly large family seemingly with at least six sons and a daughter: John ROPER: 5 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 -- 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 -- 0 - 0 -- 0 - 100 [Mecklenburg, NC 1810] See: "United States Census, 1810," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XHL9-DLX : accessed 12 May 2014), John Roper, Capt Ozburns, Mecklenburg, North Carolina; citing "1810 United States Federal Census," Ancestry.com; p. 472, line 548, NARA microfilm publication M252, roll 42, National Archives and Records Administration, Washington D.C.; FHL microfilm 0337915. * This John ROPER is shown to be age 26 to 44 (b abt 1766-84). There are two older females within John ROPER's hosuehold, one age 45 or more (b bef 1766) and the other of comparable age to John (b abt 1766-84). There is also one male age 10 to 15 (b abt 1795-1800) and five males under age 10 (b abt 1801-10). There is also one female age 10 to 15 (b abt 1795-1800). Because the identity of this John ROPER's neighbors is also significant, I have shown below ALL of the other heads of household on this Census page: Michael TILMAN Wm COLLEN Jno REDDEN Jno ORMOND Jno GIBBON Jno ORMOND Betey ORMOND Jas ORMOND Jno McCAY Jno FINCHER Ben FINCHER McCajah WILLIAMS John ROPER: 5 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 -- 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 -- 0 - 0 -- 0 - 100 [Mecklenburg, NC 1810] Janthua FINCHER Jas FINCHER Jno FINCHER Ben FINCHER Jno FINCHER Joshua FINCHER Jno McCULLOCH Jas McQUISE Alexr STEWART Lincoln STEWART Jas BLIZE Saml BLITH Henry GRIMSHAW * * * The most significant take away as to John ROPER's neighbors is that he is surrounded by members of the FINCHER family. It is KNOWN that John ROPER married Sarah FINCHER on 16 Nov 1797 in Mecklenburg County, NC. See: "North Carolina, County Marriages, 1762-1979 ," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XF9P-CXR : accessed 12 May 2014), John Roper and Sarah Fincher, 16 Nov 1797; citing Mecklenburg, North Carolina, United States; FHL microfilm 000546465. Thus, the presence, in Mecklenburg, of a John ROPER residing in 1810 amongst FINCHERS is highly suggestive that this John ROPER is the SAME John ROPER who married Sarah FINCHER. The age ranges of John ROPER's children are also consistent with this conclusion. Note that five of John ROPER's sons are under age 10 (b abt 1801-10) and one son and one daughter are shown to be age 10 to 15 (b abt 1795-1800). (This ASSUMES that the younger males and females in John's household are his children.) A 16 Nov 1797 marriage could easily produce two children before 1801. * * * John ROPER's 1820 U.S. Census record gives us some additional insight: John ROPER: 1 - 3 - 1 - 3 - 0 - 1 -- 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 -- 0 - 6 - 0 - 0 -- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 -- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 -- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 [Mecklenburg, NC 1820] See: "United States Census, 1820," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XHGH-84M : accessed 11 May 2014), John Roper, Not Stated, Mecklenburg, North Carolina; citing "1820 United States Federal Census," Ancestry.com; p. 189, NARA microfilm publication M33, roll 84, National Archives and Records Administration, Washington D.C.; FHL microfilm 0162800. * * This John ROPER is shown to be age 45 or more (b bef 1776) with a female, presumably his wife, in the same age group. This John ROPER has a total of eight males residing within his household, including three in the 16 to 25 (b abt 1795-1804) age range. It should be noted that the third and fourth age ranges overlap in 1820. The third age range is age 16 to 18 (b abt 1802-4). This was a really CONFUSING survey design. But IF the Census enumerator followed the instructions, ONE of the three males in the 16 to 25 age range was also age 16 to 18 (b abt 1802-4) and one TWO are in the 19 to 25 (b abt 1795-1801) age range. Thus, John ROPER may have had only SEVEN males residing within his household, NOT eight. This John ROPER also has three males age 10 to 15 (b abt 1805-10) and one under age 10 (b abt 1811-20). Besides the female of comparable age, John ROPER has only two other females, both under age 10 (b abt 1811-20) within his household. * * In 1830, John ROPER reappears in Gwinnett County, GA, and his two eldest sons emerge from his household in adjacent Census records. John ROPER: 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 3 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 -- 0 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 [Gwinnett, GA 1830] William ROPER: 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 -- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 [Gwinnett, GA 1830] Charles ROPER: 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 -- 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 [Gwinnett, GA 1830] John and William are shown at Ancestry.com Image 115 of 144 at the bottom of the page and Charles is at the top of the following page [Image 117]. See: "United States Census, 1830," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XHGL-Y66 : accessed 12 May 2014), John Roper, Not Stated, Gwinnett, Georgia; citing "1830 United States Federal Census," Ancestry.com; p. 365, NARA microfilm publication M19, roll 17, National Archives and Records Administration, Washington D.C.; FHL microfilm 0007037. [Image 731] "United States Census, 1830," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XHGL-YXM : accessed 12 May 2014), William Roper, Not Stated, Gwinnett, Georgia; citing "1830 United States Federal Census," Ancestry.com; p. 365, NARA microfilm publication M19, roll 17, National Archives and Records Administration, Washington D.C.; FHL microfilm 0007037. [Image 731] "United States Census, 1830," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XHGL-YXW : accessed 12 May 2014), Charles Roper, Not Stated, Gwinnett, Georgia; citing "1830 United States Federal Census," Ancestry.com; p. 366, NARA microfilm publication M19, roll 17, National Archives and Records Administration, Washington D.C.; FHL microfilm 0007037. A third son James has settled nearby in Gwinnett County. * * * Thus, we have John ROPER in Meckenburg for the 1810 and 1820 Census enumerations, but GONE by 1830. The absence of mention of members of John ROPER's household at the Inventory Sale of James ROPER's estate is suggestive that John ROPER was already in Georgia by that date. Mecklenburg, NC, and Gwinnett, Georgia, deed records would probably confirm more precisely when this relocation took place. Similarly, the places of birth of John ROPER's grandchildren may also yield some additional clues. Usually, there are a variety of other extant records which show the presence of a person in a community, including appearance as a witness on deeds of others, mentions within probate records and court records, as well as other similar transactional records. As far as I can tell NO ONE has carefully inspected the records in either Mecklenburg or Gwinnett for additional insight into this ROPER family. * * * Note the presence in John ROPER's household of a female age 45 or more in 1810 (b bef 1766). While it might be that John ROPER married an older woman, this is INCONSISTENT with later Census records showing the age of the eldest female in John ROPER's household. While the 1820 Census record is ambiguous as to the age of Sarah Fincher ROPER, showing only that she was age 45 or more in 1820 (b bef 1776), the 1830 Census record from Gwinnett shows the eldest female to be age 50 to 59 (b abt 1771-80). In 1840, John ROPER is enumerated within the household of his son Stephen ROPER. Neither John ROPER appears within the COUNTS for John ROPER's household, but John ROPER appears at age 75 in the Revolutionary War Veteran's schedule. While Sarah Fincher ROPER might have been living within the household of anther member of the family, it seems most likely that Sarah was already dead by 1840. Although some secondary sources show that Sarah died about 1849 in Calhoun, Cleburne County, AL, I know of no primary evidence supporting this. If someone has specific primary evidence as to the date and place of Sarah Fincher ROPER's death, I would be interested in learning of it. Examination of the deeds in Gwinnett, GA, and Cleburne, AL, may yield additional insight. If Sarah was living at the date John ROPER sold his land in Gwinnett, Sarah would probably have also been required to sign the deed. * * Thus, the best primary evidence seems to suggest that Sarah was born: b bef 1776 (age 45 or more) [1820] b abt 1771-80 (age 50 to 59) [1830] If both of these Census records were correct, then Sarah would have been born abt 1771-6. This makes pretty good sense, as it would put Sarah's age at marriage at 21 to 26 in 1797. By contrast, if Sarah was age 45 or more in 1810 (b bef 1766), she would have been at least age 32 at her marriage, quite ancient for an unmarried woman in those days. By contrast, the older woman in the 1810 Census record could very well be John ROPER's widowed mother Obedience ROPER, whose husband Jesse was dead by 22 Jan 1810. Bear in mind that there are NO OTHER ROPER HOUSEHOLDS in Mecklenburg in 1810. Jesse died there, probably in 1809 or January 1810. Obedience does NOT appear within her own Census record. While there is NO PROOF that the older woman is Obedience "Biddy" ROPER, the presence of an older woman in John ROPER's household supports a reasonable inference that Biddy may have lived with John ROPER's family for a while after her husband's death. I would therefore suggest that Biddy was probably living in John ROPER's household in 1810, moved in with her son James ROPER by the date of the 1820 Census: John ROPER: 5 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 -- 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 -- 0 - 0 -- 0 - 100 [Mecklenburg, NC 1810] James ROPER: 0 - 2 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 1 -- 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 -- 0 - 4 - 0 - 3 -- 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 -- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 -- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 [Mecklenburg, NC 1820] Thus, I would suggest that Obedience "Biddy" ROPER moved from the household of son John ROPER (d 25 Jul 1852), to the household of son James ROPER (d bef 1828) by 1820. Since there seems to be no Census record for Biddy ROPER, she then either died before 1830 or moved into the household of another child or grandchild. While Biddy's survival and continued residence with her children might seem to be a trivial detail unworthy of such exposition, as I will show in another future post, this hypothesis ought to color and enrich our understanding and appreciation of later family lore and, if correct, increases our confidence that members of John ROPER's family might know the correct identity of John ROPER's parents! * * * * * Thus far, I have presented only the Census records, John ROPER's marriage record and the proximity of the FINCHERs to establish that Revolutionary War Veteran John ROPER (b 24 Feb 1763-6, d 25 Jul 1852 - AL) was the John ROPER found at Mecklenburg. However, there is much better and more conclusive evidence within John ROPER's Revolutionary War Pension file. A partial transcription of John ROPER's Pension file by C. Leon Harris appears at the Revolutionary War Apps website maintained by Will GRAVES: John Roper: S31945 http://revwarapps.org/s31945.pdf John ROPER made his application in Gwinnett County, GA, the place of the 1830 Census record cited above. In his deposition on written questions before the Gwinnett, Georgia, Court, John ROPER tells us: "That he th entered the service under the following named officers & served as herein stated towit In the year 1780 in Northampton County & State of North Carolina where he then resided he entered the service as a Volunteer for three months in the Company Commanded by Capt Samuel Lockhart and Lieutenant Barnett." "He has a copy of the Record of his age which shows that he was born 24 February 1763 in Brunswick County & State of Virginia - after the War he resided about 2 years in Northampton County - then removed into Cumberland County then to Mecklenburg County - in North Carolina Thence to Gwinnett County Georgia where he now resides." The former fixes John ROPER's place of enlistment in the militia in Northampton County where we find Jesse ROPER in the 1786 Tax list. We next find Jesse ROPER in Cumberland County, NC, in 1790, presumably with his son John ROPER still residing within his household. Jesse ROPER then migrates to Lancaster, SC. Though John ROPER says nothing of living in South Carolina, John ROPER's eldest son William F. ROPER is shown to have been born in South Carolina about 1799. John ROPER does say that he lived in Mecklenburg after living in Cumberland and it is in Mecklenburg that we find John ROPER residing in the 1810 and 1820 Census. He states that he migrated from there to Gwinnett and we find John ROPER enumerated in Gwinnett in 1830. In my view, this is about as good as it gets in terms of proof as to the migration and correctness of the Census records. This does NOT strictly prove that Jesse ROPER is John ROPER's father. That will be the subject of another separate thread. But this post rather clearly establishes that the identified 1810, 1820 and 1830 Census records belong to John ROPER, the Revolutionary War Veteran. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board. <br>