This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: waroper Surnames: Roper, Yates Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.roper/1875.1.1.2.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Frank: I absolutely believe that study of naming patterns of given names is quite important and certainly was NOT seeking to discount its use as a tool. Not having read the reference you cite, I cannot speak to precise empirical evidence as to the prevalence or reliability of the tool in particular places. However, it also seems to me that there are some rather common sense considerations which are applicable to the prevalence of this naming pattern. You mention respect for the father or grandfather, which I think is an apt summary for what is going on. But one means of developing such respect is actually "knowing" the ancestor. That is when a parent dies young, leaving orphans who are raised by other relatives, this can cause rather vast shifts in who is identified as a person worthy of respect, emulation and reverence with the honor of being remembered in the given names of one's children. Thus, we see that several of the Colonial era ROPER ancestors with the more unique given names were not remembered at all. I would first point to Shadrach ROPER, of Powhatan, who died leaving a Will. A common sense reading of this Will shows that Shadrach seemed to mostly disinherit his eldest son, based upon the oral assurance that Samuel LANDRUM would give Samuel ROPER a slave, making his wife and younger minor children his heirs. This may have resulted in some disaffection by Samuel ROPER. In respect of the minor children, including William P. ROPER and Jesse ROPER, NONE seemed to name a son after Shadrach, though perhaps there was some first born son of either who didn't survive childhood. Jesse ROPER named his eldest son William P. ROPER, apparently after his older brother. Another example might be found in Drury ROPER, though we know of no direct sons of Drury. Drury ROPER, though a Revolutionary War Veteran, also served time in the Virginia penitentiary for a crime I have not yet determined. He was essentially disowned/disinherited by his father. No one seems to have thereafter named a child "Drury". Similarly, Daniel ROPER, of Edgefield, SC, died very young, leaving orphans. And Daniel was also mostly NOT remembered in subsequent generations of given naming. At the other extreme, I recall having discovered during a period when I was investigating possible early family connections of the ROPER and RAPER families that there was a rather sudden proliferation of "Robertson RAPER"s. There had been a Robertson RAPER who served in the Revolution. He had a number of sons ALL of whom seemed to name their eldest son "Robertson," resulting in the unusual anomaly that an uncommon given name had become pervasive in a single generation by the respect and reverence that the War Veteran Robertson commanded within his large family. This anecdote probably suggests another possibly general rule that when an ancestor was particularly loved, revered and well respected by some, he was often so held by many, while when the ancestor wasn't remembered with as great a fondness or affection, this might also be a more widely held view. The naming of a child after the grandfather by one child might therefore be MORE predictive that other children might follow suit, while a deviation from the rule might suggest that there was some underlying issue or factor which affected the given naming that carried forward to the other children. It should probably also be noted that it was also NOT uncommon for a parent to hope or expect that a grandparent might take a special interest in a child named for the grandparent and this leads to the not altogether selfish result that when a grandparent was already dead that the grandparent couldn't be subsequently relied upon for help or support. Thus, the premature death of the grandparent to be honored might truncate at least one reason for honoring or naming the grandparent. Although I have never kept any formal metrics, my own anecdotal experience has been that the grandparents are MORE LIKELY to be remembered in the naming of children when the grandparent is ALIVE and nearby, to fully appreciate the honor. I suspect that when the grandparent was both KNOWN, well liked, well respected and LOVED that the impetus to honor a particular grandparent was greatest. Some of these are HARD FOR US TO MEASURE given the sparse data which has come down to the present time and would have probably even been hard to measure with almost perfect data coinciding with the naming. In fact, the naming of the child would probably be the best evidence of the respect and affection rather than some other measure of respect and affection being predictive of the likelihood of naming. Overall, I think that naming patterns are important, but that the raw metrics as to likelihood of naming need to be tempered with some appreciation as to the dynamics by which exceptions can and do arise. Moreover, because not all children survive and the identity and sequence of the all of the children does not always come down to us with certainty, we must apply the intuition suggested by the rule with great care. While it can be a helpful guide, it is far from ironclad proof as to a relationship, especially where there is a proliferation of the given name across numerous sons. The rule is thus most useful in support of other primary evidence of a relationship, direct or circumstantial. When you start to develop some actual evidence that William ROPER and Keziah YATES actually survived and made it to Tennessee, then we can begin to assess the likelihood that they might be the parents of various disconnected Tennessee ROPER families. Unless and until such evidence can be identified and brought forward, it is BETTER to simply show these ROPER ancestors as DISCONNECTED and the appropriate subjects of further research. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board. <br>