This side discussion Judy is more about the fine details of copyright and how to not step in it. As such I'm merely correcting the over simplification and generalizations and mistaken claims. -----Original Message----- From: JFlorian <cageycat@gmail.com> To: rootsweb-help <rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 3:01 pm Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Horses for courses Actually, this list is about webmaking for sites hosted by rootsweb, e.g. the County Webs, Genealogy orgs etc. As such, it isn't for genealogy.... and copyright isn't 'off topic', except I've never seen this much ta-do over someone else's website. Judy On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Ray Cappock <raycapp@optonline.net> wrote: > I've received many, many messages but I haven't seen anything about > genealogy in a long time - so this list goes to my "Junk" file. > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You do not need credentials to discuss copyright in a public forum Especially so, when those who *started* that side discussion (not I) are wrong in their uncited claims :) -----Original Message----- From: DULCICH6 <DULCICH6@aol.com> To: rootsweb-help <rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 2:50 pm Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site I knew you would correct me if I was wrong! However, you did not answer my question, namely "What is it that Joan will have lost?" Also, please establish your credentials for making these corrections. Thanks! Sharon In a message dated 5/27/2013 12:04:53 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wjhonson@aol.com writes: You're mistaken Sharon. I'm not the one who asked about this point. I'm just correcting the misrepresenatations presented here by others as "facts". -----Original Message----- From: DULCICH6 <DULCICH6@aol.com> To: rootsweb-help <rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 11:19 am Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site OK, I'm just a bystander here, but what is it that Joan will have lost? I'm sure that you will correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that you asked for help in finding out why a website might have been taken down. Several list members have offered info trying to help. You don't seem to like the info you've been given & so you have been referred to Rootsweb's Helpdesk as the only place where you may receive a definitive answer. What is it that is in danger of being lost? Sharon In a message dated 5/27/2013 10:48:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wjhonson@aol.com writes: or admit you've lost. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

So a list posted to a list is now... official in some way? What is this Clockwork Orange? -----Original Message----- From: JFlorian <cageycat@gmail.com> To: rootsweb-help <rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 12:12 pm Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site A list of "Staff" was posted to the ListOwners List... two different things. Just like if I posted the list of Staff to a county list... see? Judy On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Wjhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote: > Uh... a list OWNER is now "Staff"? > Sorry Pat that's not quite what anyone > else in the world would consider "Staff" > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I can assure I exist and even have my photo on my Facebook profile page. Joan :) In a message dated 5/27/2013 5:50:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sirreal53@tampabay.rr.com writes: lolol Ann- When I saw that I sat in my chat chair and giggled like a goofball :-D On 5/27/2013 4:53 PM, Ann O'Hara wrote: An alleged person?

And I have met and spent time with her even if she is alleged! :) Lainee -----Original Message----- From: JYoung6180@aol.com Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 6:27 PM To: rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site I can assure I exist and even have my photo on my Facebook profile page. Joan :) In a message dated 5/27/2013 5:50:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sirreal53@tampabay.rr.com writes: lolol Ann- When I saw that I sat in my chat chair and giggled like a goofball :-D On 5/27/2013 4:53 PM, Ann O'Hara wrote: An alleged person?

Actually, this list is about webmaking for sites hosted by rootsweb, e.g. the County Webs, Genealogy orgs etc. As such, it isn't for genealogy.... and copyright isn't 'off topic', except I've never seen this much ta-do over someone else's website. Judy On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Ray Cappock <raycapp@optonline.net> wrote: > I've received many, many messages but I haven't seen anything about > genealogy in a long time - so this list goes to my "Junk" file. > >

I've received many, many messages but I haven't seen anything about genealogy in a long time - so this list goes to my "Junk" file. -----Original Message----- From: rootsweb-help-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:rootsweb-help-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Ahern Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 3:37 PM To: rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com Subject: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Horses for courses JYoung6180@aol.com said: >what is it they say about leading a horse to water but not being able to >make him drink? You can lead a horticulture, but you cannot make her think? -dja ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I knew you would correct me if I was wrong! However, you did not answer my question, namely "What is it that Joan will have lost?" Also, please establish your credentials for making these corrections. Thanks! Sharon In a message dated 5/27/2013 12:04:53 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wjhonson@aol.com writes: You're mistaken Sharon. I'm not the one who asked about this point. I'm just correcting the misrepresenatations presented here by others as "facts". -----Original Message----- From: DULCICH6 <DULCICH6@aol.com> To: rootsweb-help <rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 11:19 am Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site OK, I'm just a bystander here, but what is it that Joan will have lost? I'm sure that you will correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that you asked for help in finding out why a website might have been taken down. Several list members have offered info trying to help. You don't seem to like the info you've been given & so you have been referred to Rootsweb's Helpdesk as the only place where you may receive a definitive answer. What is it that is in danger of being lost? Sharon In a message dated 5/27/2013 10:48:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wjhonson@aol.com writes: or admit you've lost. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

lolol Ann- When I saw that I sat in my chat chair and giggled like a goofball :-D On 5/27/2013 4:53 PM, Ann O'Hara wrote: An alleged person? -----Original Message----- From: [1]rootsweb-help-bounces@rootsweb.com [[2]mailto:rootsweb-help-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 12:51 PM To: [3]rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site This is a public forum and anyone can reply to anything posted. So get off your high horse. As an alleged person who used to work for Rootsweb, then I suppose you would have no trouble pointing to this very policy on their site. Otherwise I call your bluff. -----Original Message----- From: JYoung6180 [4]<JYoung6180@aol.com> To: rootsweb-help [5]<rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 9:42 am Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site And just when was it your job to handle copyright issues with user submitted data for RootsWeb? Actually at one time it was a part of my job when I worked for RootsWeb and what I posted here was exactly how we handled copyright complaints. Only once did I actually have a database removed for infringement...the material was under copyright and the person raising the complaint was the copyright holder. I had other complaints but upon examination the claims didn't stand up to scrutiny either because the material couldn't be copyrighted or wasn't under copyright at the present time or the person was not the copyright holder. So I can "guarantee" that this is how copyright complaints were handled by RootsWeb and to the best of my knowledge there has been no change of policy. You can ask them if you like. Joan In a message dated 5/27/2013 11:46:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [6]wjhonson@aol.com writes: I guarentee you they do not. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [7]ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [8]ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [9]ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@ rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. mailto:rootsweb-help-bounces@rootsweb.com 2. mailto:rootsweb-help-bounces@rootsweb.com 3. mailto:rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com 4. mailto:JYoung6180@aol.com 5. mailto:rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com 6. mailto:wjhonson@aol.com 7. mailto:ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com 8. mailto:ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com 9. mailto:ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com

An alleged person? -----Original Message----- From: rootsweb-help-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:rootsweb-help-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 12:51 PM To: rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site This is a public forum and anyone can reply to anything posted. So get off your high horse. As an alleged person who used to work for Rootsweb, then I suppose you would have no trouble pointing to this very policy on their site. Otherwise I call your bluff. -----Original Message----- From: JYoung6180 <JYoung6180@aol.com> To: rootsweb-help <rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 9:42 am Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site And just when was it your job to handle copyright issues with user submitted data for RootsWeb? Actually at one time it was a part of my job when I worked for RootsWeb and what I posted here was exactly how we handled copyright complaints. Only once did I actually have a database removed for infringement...the material was under copyright and the person raising the complaint was the copyright holder. I had other complaints but upon examination the claims didn't stand up to scrutiny either because the material couldn't be copyrighted or wasn't under copyright at the present time or the person was not the copyright holder. So I can "guarantee" that this is how copyright complaints were handled by RootsWeb and to the best of my knowledge there has been no change of policy. You can ask them if you like. Joan In a message dated 5/27/2013 11:46:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wjhonson@aol.com writes: I guarentee you they do not. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Can we PLEASE bring this ongoing flaming contest and argument to a close now, and get back to more appropriate and meaningful subject matter. This list is now averaging one digest every four hours (that's six per day!), and saying nothing worth arguing over in the process. It is sounding like my grandkids do sometimes, only they have a reason for arguing like kids, because they ARE kids. Enough said. Please let it end folks, and please don't reply to me privately either because my delete key works very nicely and I will not reply. :-( David E. Cann decann@infionline.net -----Original Message----- From: rootsweb-help-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:rootsweb-help-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:59 PM To: rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site If a person claims to be the copyright holder then Rootsweb staff has two options Believe them or Research it. I think you misread what I wrote. <snip>

Wjhonson having been a Rootsweb user since its beginning, I for one am very certain that Joan was the person to contact at Rootsweb for many years. She solved many problems for me. Les On 5/27/2013 12:51 PM, Wjhonson wrote: > This is a public forum and anyone can reply to > anything posted. So get off your high horse. > > As an alleged person who used to work for > Rootsweb, then I suppose you would have > no trouble pointing to this very policy on > their site. Otherwise I call your bluff.

At 03:04 PM 5/27/2013, Wjhonson wrote: >You do not need permission to >quote a newspaper or book at all. > >Fair Use can be as much as ten >percent of the work. In fact you can use the >entire work if your purpose is to critique >it or mock it or satirize it. These are >considered copyright exceptions. There is a list specifically for copyright questions/discussion. I suggest you join that list, and post your posit there for informed comment. http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Miscellaneous/COPYRIGHT.html Pat A.

On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Wjhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote: > You do not need permission to > quote a newspaper or book at all. > > > I did not say quote!!! If I want to post every Obit XYZ newspaper published, I sure as heck better get permission. I'm really unsure why you are choosing to twist words or not understand what you're reading... or if you just need to be right. It's Memorial Day. Go have some fun. Copyright issues will be debatable for as long as we are all alive... and long after we're all dead. Have a nice day, Judy

A list of "Staff" was posted to the ListOwners List... two different things. Just like if I posted the list of Staff to a county list... see? Judy On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Wjhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote: > Uh... a list OWNER is now "Staff"? > Sorry Pat that's not quite what anyone > else in the world would consider "Staff" > >

You do not need permission to quote a newspaper or book at all. Fair Use can be as much as ten percent of the work. In fact you can use the entire work if your purpose is to critique it or mock it or satirize it. These are considered copyright exceptions.

Susan, You made me laugh-- the good kind of laughing. :-) It's a beautiful day (besides being chilly), a holiday ... I think going outside to play sounds wonderful ! Hope you'all are enjoying a "Memorial" day with family and friends. I miss get-togethers at my grandma's... if anyone sees any macaroni salad, could you send me some? Thanks again for reminding us to giggle, Susan, Judy On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Susan W Pieroth <pieroth@ix.netcom.com>wrote: > Enough already. Go outside and play. > >

You're mistaken Sharon. I'm not the one who asked about this point. I'm just correcting the misrepresenatations presented here by others as "facts". -----Original Message----- From: DULCICH6 <DULCICH6@aol.com> To: rootsweb-help <rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 11:19 am Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site OK, I'm just a bystander here, but what is it that Joan will have lost? I'm sure that you will correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that you asked for help in finding out why a website might have been taken down. Several list members have offered info trying to help. You don't seem to like the info you've been given & so you have been referred to Rootsweb's Helpdesk as the only place where you may receive a definitive answer. What is it that is in danger of being lost? Sharon In a message dated 5/27/2013 10:48:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wjhonson@aol.com writes: or admit you've lost. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Uh... a list OWNER is now "Staff"? Sorry Pat that's not quite what anyone else in the world would consider "Staff" I've been a listowner for over a decade I would never call myself Rootsweb "staff" -----Original Message----- From: Pat Asher <pjroots@att.net> To: rootsweb-help <rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 10:59 am Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site At 01:39 PM 5/27/2013, Wjhonson wrote: >It means, reading it more plainly, that >a person to make a claim has to include >substantiation in their claim. Merriam-Webster: substantiate: to establish by proof or competent evidence : verify <substantiate a charge> And staff has to evaluate the offered proof to determine if it is valid. I remember quite clearly the lady who firmly believed her discovery of her ancestor's marriage certificate gave her ownership rights to the fact of the marriage. She demanded that everyone else who had published that fact remove it because it infringed her copyright. She submitted as proof a xerox copy of the marriage certificate return as filed by the county registrar. Her claim of infringement was denied. She owned the xerox copy. She did not own the fact(s) it contained. Pat A. BTW, here's a list of RootsWeb staff as of Jan 2000. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/listowners/2000-01/0947197619 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

If a person claims to be the copyright holder then Rootsweb staff has two options Believe them or Research it. I think you misread what I wrote. -----Original Message----- From: JYoung6180 <JYoung6180@aol.com> To: rootsweb-help <rootsweb-help@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 10:54 am Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] Cannot Access Site That isn't what I wrote...do you need new glasses? I said that they will check out the evidence submitted by the person claiming to hold copyright to verify whether or not infringement can be proven --- if the person reporting infringement doesn't even claim to BE the copyright holder it won't be checked out. Joan In a message dated 5/27/2013 1:49:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wjhonson@aol.com writes: Sorry that makes no sense. A person presents evidence that they are the copyright holder. In order to *prove* that that evidence is *true*, staff would have to research it. If they take the evidence presented and use that to *determine* that the presenter is the copyright holder they are not *researching* anything. You can't have it both ways. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTSWEB-HELP-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message