In a message dated 12/12/2007 12:17:38 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Has anyone encountered this question before? Does anyone know whether such a complaint would have any legal standing? Hello Sheila, This may help. I have a website with hundreds of headstone photos online (could be thousands - never counted them) and never had such a problem. See _http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~dfsgal/_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~dfsgal/) To the contrary, I often get e-mails saying things like, "thanks for showing me ..... graveyard, but for your photos I would never have seen where my ansestors lie". That said, I would simple remove the one 'offending' image if the person requested it. As for the legal aspect, if the graveyard is a public one then all the gravesstones are in the public domain. If a private graveyard then permission needs to be sought from the owners before any photos may be taken within it. In Scotland that is the situation as far as I know. Sandy

Lately, I've been seeing an awful lot of sites with a "customized" doflicky in the URL box before the URL. Anyone know how to do that? Could RW put up one of our green and purple trees on their sites, or the USGenWeb logo on those? Cheryl -- There should be no attachments on this message, unless I specifically mentioned them above.

Well said, Judy On Dec 12, 2007 8:03 AM, Judy Florian <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Sheila, > > It's not that it's illegal---actually, to me, the question of legality is > far from the real issue. Much of what we do as genealogists is not > illegal----but we do risk unintentionally hurting people. > > For the woman, it is much more likely a "privacy" issue and simply, that > the > death of her child is still extremely painful. Quite understandable. It > also may feel to her like you have put "him" on the site. > > And IF (I say IF) there were any other "issues" at the time of pregnancy, > birth, or at the death of a child, that whole time in a woman's life can > be > so confusing, painful, maybe even shameful etc. Maybe the "dates" show > that > a pregnancy was before a marriage--still an issue for many people. Maybe > she got married and never told her husband of the baby? Maybe the death > occurred as an accident which ended up splitting the family apart? For > example, in my family, a toddler drowned in the family pool. Each parent > slipped into blaming the other for not watching the baby better--- the > death > caused the parents to divorce because neither parent could handle the > grief > together. In another family of mine, the couple had 3 sons over time.... > each died of SIDS before age 2 yrs (God I can't imagine that pain and > horror.) They also could not deal with each other's profound grief and > later divorced--- just seeing each other reminded them of the boys who > died. > > None of us know the CURRENT lives we either touch or interfere with by > putting someone else's family and life story ON the Internet. Plus, there > are millions of people who still don't like how the Internet can so > powerfully enter private areas of a person's life. > > If it was my site, I'd respond compassionately to her. I would GENTLY > SUGGEST to her that keeping the photo on the website would be like a > memorial to her son and that I as a webmaster would be honored if she > allowed me to leave his monument's photo there. BUT I would state also > that > I never want to hurt any living family members just to do genealogy, and > so, > I'd be willing to remove the photo if she still wants that. I'd say > something also about "Would it be okay with you if I leave just his name > in > that spot, in memory of him?" (It wouldn't be hard to insert his name in > the table/cell where the photo is now.) I'd carefully and honestly write > from your heart about WHY you do this work (to honor the families of > others; > to celebrate the lives of deceased persons), and that you take your "work" > very seriously--that you never want others to feel your work exploits > anyone, or hurts anyone. All you can do is try to connect with her, one > woman to another, one mother to another... explain your work... offer her > choices... and then, respect and honor what she wants you to do. > > Is it really worth hurting someone just because you believe genealogy > gives > researchers a legal "right" to post anything on anyone? No, I don't think > genealogists have any "legal rights" when it comes to causing other people > pain. My grandma used to say "Just the facts, Ma'am--- but don't focus so > much on 'facts' that you're willing to HURT someone in that family." I > learn a lot of family "secrets" in my searches-- but that doesn't mean I > have to publish them all because they are "facts." > > Webmasters should remember --- IF a researcher REALLY wants to find info, > that person CAN contact the cemetery themselves. Losing a photo or many > gravestone photos is just fine--- especially if leaving those on the Web > HURT a relative. It's not our right to decide WHY it hurts the family, or > whether the family SHOULD feel hurt or offended. As "guardians" of other > people's lives and genealogy, we must respect the LIVING. Her son's > monument will be there for future researchers to find-- it is not > imperative > to be in a collection on the Internet---especially when it causes the > Mother > unneeded pain. > > Judy Florian > > > On 12/12/07, Sheila Hanna <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > In the "just when you think you've heard everything" category, I just > > received an e-mail from someone who is apparently quite upset that the > > website that I manage for a genealogical society has a photo of her > son's > > headstone (along with hundreds of other headstone photos). She wants it > > removed immediately. The stone in question is for a little boy who > lived > > only one day and who passed in 1997. > > > > I just received her e-mail this morning and haven't yet mentioned it to > > the > > genealogical society. While I'm fairly certain that they'll just have > me > > remove that one photo to avoid any potential hassles with this woman, > I'm > > wondering if anyone else has ever encountered this problem. It seems to > > me > > that a headstone would be fair game for photos and I can't imagine any > > precedent or law that would make photographing and posting a headstone > > image > > on a website illegal. In theory, if she'd wanted to avoid anyone > knowing > > where her son was buried or any of the details that appear on the stone, > > this mom wouldn't have put a big engraved rock in a public place to > > commemorate him. Since the cemetery is open to the public, she would > have > > to expect that others would see the headstone. > > > > Has anyone encountered this question before? Does anyone know whether > > such > > a complaint would have any legal standing? > > > > Sheila > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Sheila Hanna wrote: > In the "just when you think you've heard everything" category, I just > received an e-mail from someone who is apparently quite upset that the > website that I manage for a genealogical society has a photo of her son's > headstone (along with hundreds of other headstone photos). She wants it > removed immediately. The stone in question is for a little boy who lived > only one day and who passed in 1997. > > I just received her e-mail this morning and haven't yet mentioned it to the > genealogical society. While I'm fairly certain that they'll just have me > remove that one photo to avoid any potential hassles with this woman, I'm > wondering if anyone else has ever encountered this problem. It seems to me > that a headstone would be fair game for photos and I can't imagine any > precedent or law that would make photographing and posting a headstone image > on a website illegal. In theory, if she'd wanted to avoid anyone knowing > where her son was buried or any of the details that appear on the stone, > this mom wouldn't have put a big engraved rock in a public place to > commemorate him. Since the cemetery is open to the public, she would have > to expect that others would see the headstone. She may have seen the image on some anniversary day related to the boy (the day of his funeral, maybe? the day she found out she was pregnant?) and simply lost it. And yes, I'd take it down. Word-of-mouth and social connections can do a lot the law can't in a small town. As for the headstone itself -- it's a nuance, but putting up a stone or even publishing an "appreciation" in a local area where your _friends_ will see it is one issue. Putting it in the rest-area of a busy interstate where _just anyone_ can see it is another. IMO, YMMV etc Cheryl -- There should be no attachments on this message, unless I specifically mentioned them above.

Hi Sheila, It's not that it's illegal---actually, to me, the question of legality is far from the real issue. Much of what we do as genealogists is not illegal----but we do risk unintentionally hurting people. For the woman, it is much more likely a "privacy" issue and simply, that the death of her child is still extremely painful. Quite understandable. It also may feel to her like you have put "him" on the site. And IF (I say IF) there were any other "issues" at the time of pregnancy, birth, or at the death of a child, that whole time in a woman's life can be so confusing, painful, maybe even shameful etc. Maybe the "dates" show that a pregnancy was before a marriage--still an issue for many people. Maybe she got married and never told her husband of the baby? Maybe the death occurred as an accident which ended up splitting the family apart? For example, in my family, a toddler drowned in the family pool. Each parent slipped into blaming the other for not watching the baby better--- the death caused the parents to divorce because neither parent could handle the grief together. In another family of mine, the couple had 3 sons over time.... each died of SIDS before age 2 yrs (God I can't imagine that pain and horror.) They also could not deal with each other's profound grief and later divorced--- just seeing each other reminded them of the boys who died. None of us know the CURRENT lives we either touch or interfere with by putting someone else's family and life story ON the Internet. Plus, there are millions of people who still don't like how the Internet can so powerfully enter private areas of a person's life. If it was my site, I'd respond compassionately to her. I would GENTLY SUGGEST to her that keeping the photo on the website would be like a memorial to her son and that I as a webmaster would be honored if she allowed me to leave his monument's photo there. BUT I would state also that I never want to hurt any living family members just to do genealogy, and so, I'd be willing to remove the photo if she still wants that. I'd say something also about "Would it be okay with you if I leave just his name in that spot, in memory of him?" (It wouldn't be hard to insert his name in the table/cell where the photo is now.) I'd carefully and honestly write from your heart about WHY you do this work (to honor the families of others; to celebrate the lives of deceased persons), and that you take your "work" very seriously--that you never want others to feel your work exploits anyone, or hurts anyone. All you can do is try to connect with her, one woman to another, one mother to another... explain your work... offer her choices... and then, respect and honor what she wants you to do. Is it really worth hurting someone just because you believe genealogy gives researchers a legal "right" to post anything on anyone? No, I don't think genealogists have any "legal rights" when it comes to causing other people pain. My grandma used to say "Just the facts, Ma'am--- but don't focus so much on 'facts' that you're willing to HURT someone in that family." I learn a lot of family "secrets" in my searches-- but that doesn't mean I have to publish them all because they are "facts." Webmasters should remember --- IF a researcher REALLY wants to find info, that person CAN contact the cemetery themselves. Losing a photo or many gravestone photos is just fine--- especially if leaving those on the Web HURT a relative. It's not our right to decide WHY it hurts the family, or whether the family SHOULD feel hurt or offended. As "guardians" of other people's lives and genealogy, we must respect the LIVING. Her son's monument will be there for future researchers to find-- it is not imperative to be in a collection on the Internet---especially when it causes the Mother unneeded pain. Judy Florian On 12/12/07, Sheila Hanna <[email protected]> wrote: > > In the "just when you think you've heard everything" category, I just > received an e-mail from someone who is apparently quite upset that the > website that I manage for a genealogical society has a photo of her son's > headstone (along with hundreds of other headstone photos). She wants it > removed immediately. The stone in question is for a little boy who lived > only one day and who passed in 1997. > > I just received her e-mail this morning and haven't yet mentioned it to > the > genealogical society. While I'm fairly certain that they'll just have me > remove that one photo to avoid any potential hassles with this woman, I'm > wondering if anyone else has ever encountered this problem. It seems to > me > that a headstone would be fair game for photos and I can't imagine any > precedent or law that would make photographing and posting a headstone > image > on a website illegal. In theory, if she'd wanted to avoid anyone knowing > where her son was buried or any of the details that appear on the stone, > this mom wouldn't have put a big engraved rock in a public place to > commemorate him. Since the cemetery is open to the public, she would have > to expect that others would see the headstone. > > Has anyone encountered this question before? Does anyone know whether > such > a complaint would have any legal standing? > > Sheila >

In the "just when you think you've heard everything" category, I just received an e-mail from someone who is apparently quite upset that the website that I manage for a genealogical society has a photo of her son's headstone (along with hundreds of other headstone photos). She wants it removed immediately. The stone in question is for a little boy who lived only one day and who passed in 1997. I just received her e-mail this morning and haven't yet mentioned it to the genealogical society. While I'm fairly certain that they'll just have me remove that one photo to avoid any potential hassles with this woman, I'm wondering if anyone else has ever encountered this problem. It seems to me that a headstone would be fair game for photos and I can't imagine any precedent or law that would make photographing and posting a headstone image on a website illegal. In theory, if she'd wanted to avoid anyone knowing where her son was buried or any of the details that appear on the stone, this mom wouldn't have put a big engraved rock in a public place to commemorate him. Since the cemetery is open to the public, she would have to expect that others would see the headstone. Has anyone encountered this question before? Does anyone know whether such a complaint would have any legal standing? Sheila

This came through another list I belong to but thought it was worth passing along to those who might be interested - The folks behind "HTML Dog" have done a fine job of creating a set of tutorials for HTML and CSS in beginner/intermediate/advanced packages: http://www.htmldog.com/guides/ pat ---------- Pat Geary, Microsoft MVP - FrontPage We discuss FrontPage and Expression Web http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gearyfamily/frontpage/ http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gearyfamily/expression-web/ Genealogy Web Design Tips and Tutorials http://www.genealogy-web-creations.com/ http://www.genealogy-computer-tips.com/ - Blog

Thanks Judy, I'm going to print all these things and put them in my web file to refer to when I get in trouble again. Most of the problem is that I don't work on this on a daily basis so I forget a lot. Some of the best things I've learned are not to be so afraid of HTML, FileZilla (great for viewing where the files are), Way Back and always have a backup copy (although I managed to duplicate the errors into it also) and to understand the upload process. Thanks again. Kathy -- Kathy Summers 112 Carriage Walk Lane Hendersonville, NC 28791 888-423-2246 828-692-3602 [email protected] www.ksummers.com ---------------------- Original Message: --------------------- From: "Judy Florian" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page All Judy Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 04:24:12 +0000 > Hi Kathy, > > I do understand. I use the analogy of having lots of slippery, rolling peas > on a plate-- and I'm trying to balance the tilting plate so all the peas > stay on. > > You asked: << I have looked at the HTML in Front Page but boy does > that look like a lot of work and time. Maybe someday when I slow down a bit > I can learn how to do this. Does that mean that you have to type every bit > of the code into every page? >> > > No. As a matter of fact, most things can be done by "highlight > copy > > paste to a new place" even in html. > > As far as your original pages that did not get backed up, if they were ever > on the web, you can find them through the WayBack Machine on the Internet. > When you find an old page, copy the content, pop it into Notepad so it > strips out old codes... and then copy it from Notepad to a new webpage in > Frontpage.... I should say, to a template of your web pages. Then, you'd > just re-format it (bold, italics, spacing, etc). And save. > > It looks like Pat G. has your > http://www.the-gearys.com/kathy/Resources.htm page > copied and sent you a link. > > If you need help finding your "lost old" pages out on the Internet, just ask > here to see if someone could help look for them so you can copy the content. > > Judy > > > On 11/30/07, Kathy Summers <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Judy, > > > > Thanks for the info. I have looked at the HTML in Front Page but boy does > > that look like a lot of work and time. Maybe someday when I slow down a > > bit > > I can learn how to do this. Does that mean that you have to type every > > bit > > of the code into every page? I tried to see why my picture wouldn't > > upload > > but it looked like it is referring to the correct file. > > > > I'm so relieved to get the page back up and it will take me a while to get > > the Resources page redone because that was where all my links to other > > pages > > were. I thought I had a copy of the Web saved on a disk but only one page > > saved. There are things I really don't like about Front Page so I may > > investigate some others. But right now I'm buying, refurbishing, and > > reselling houses, renting my condo in Hilton Head by the week, officer in > > DAR, maintaining this website as well as my own, getting my house ready to > > sell and trying to keep up with 5 grown children and their crises (there's > > always one). More than you wanted to know but I just can't work in > > learning > > another thing! I appreciate you explaining some of this to me and what I > > would need to learn and the advice for fixing it. I'm sure it isn't > > totally > > corrected but just having all graphics except one back - I'm shouting > > Hallelujah! > > > > Kathy > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Judy Florian" <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:53 PM > > Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page All Judy > > > > > > > Kathy, > > > > > > When I started, I knew zero about html. And CSS to me was -- "what he > > > H(elp) is CSS?" I looked at it then and it made NO sense. Of course, > > I > > > didn't know a br from an hr, or a tb from a tr (in HTML code). So I > > > started > > > the HTML struggle (boy did it fight--lol). > > > > > > "Everyone" kept telling me "do CSS" and... well, I couldn't. I didn't > > > understand HTML so how could I do CSS? > > > > > > I used Frontpage so I often looked at the HTML to see what it looked > > like > > > "inside." Slowly, it began to make sense. I'm a visual learner, so I > > > had > > > to "see" when I tell Frontpage to do "this" then this is how "this" > > looks > > > in > > > HTML. I spent a (year? two?) learning HTML, learning to fix problems > > > (some, > > > not all) and more importantly, getting comfortable with coding. > > > > > > Now..... this year I decided to try CSS. It *is* easier in *some* > > ways. > > > It *is* cleaner. Somehow, it looks better on the screen. Pat G. made a > > > template I could use. After a few months, I learned how to fix my first > > > thing in CSS. (But if I didn't know HtML first, I wouldn't have known > > how > > > to fix the CSS problem.) > > > > > > I do kinda wish I had started out doing CSS. Now I have 2,000 html > > pages > > > so > > > it'd be a huge job to convert all of them. So instead, I am going to > > > convert to CSS just 20 pages for a "section" that I know I can add > > to. I > > > just converted images today (wow-- an accomplishment!). Tomorrow, I'll > > > tackle fonts etc. Then the bigger job--- I have to copy out content and > > > put > > > it in the CSS pages. > > > > > > Anyway, I just wanted to give you both perspectives. It's okay to learn > > > html first. But, if I had to do it again, I wish I could have done CSS > > > from > > > the beginning. > > > > > > Judy > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > Washington County PA Websites: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~florian/ > http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~florian/ > http://freepages.religions.rootsweb.com/~florian/ > http://www.rootsweb.com/~pawashin/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

WOW thanks - this is going to save me so much time! At least, as frustrating as this has been, I have learned a lot both about Front Page and just how a website works. A long way from real knowledge but it certainly has helped. -- ---------------------- Original Message: --------------------- From: Patricia Geary <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page All Judy Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 03:52:21 +0000 > At 10:46 PM 11/30/2007, you wrote: > >I'm so relieved to get the page back up and it will take me a while to get > >the Resources page redone because that was where all my links to other pages > >were. I thought I had a copy of the Web saved on a disk but only one page > >saved. > > > Copy and Paste into your own document > http://www.the-gearys.com/kathy/Resources.htm > > pat > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Kathy, I do understand. I use the analogy of having lots of slippery, rolling peas on a plate-- and I'm trying to balance the tilting plate so all the peas stay on. You asked: << I have looked at the HTML in Front Page but boy does that look like a lot of work and time. Maybe someday when I slow down a bit I can learn how to do this. Does that mean that you have to type every bit of the code into every page? >> No. As a matter of fact, most things can be done by "highlight > copy > paste to a new place" even in html. As far as your original pages that did not get backed up, if they were ever on the web, you can find them through the WayBack Machine on the Internet. When you find an old page, copy the content, pop it into Notepad so it strips out old codes... and then copy it from Notepad to a new webpage in Frontpage.... I should say, to a template of your web pages. Then, you'd just re-format it (bold, italics, spacing, etc). And save. It looks like Pat G. has your http://www.the-gearys.com/kathy/Resources.htm page copied and sent you a link. If you need help finding your "lost old" pages out on the Internet, just ask here to see if someone could help look for them so you can copy the content. Judy On 11/30/07, Kathy Summers <[email protected]> wrote: > > Judy, > > Thanks for the info. I have looked at the HTML in Front Page but boy does > that look like a lot of work and time. Maybe someday when I slow down a > bit > I can learn how to do this. Does that mean that you have to type every > bit > of the code into every page? I tried to see why my picture wouldn't > upload > but it looked like it is referring to the correct file. > > I'm so relieved to get the page back up and it will take me a while to get > the Resources page redone because that was where all my links to other > pages > were. I thought I had a copy of the Web saved on a disk but only one page > saved. There are things I really don't like about Front Page so I may > investigate some others. But right now I'm buying, refurbishing, and > reselling houses, renting my condo in Hilton Head by the week, officer in > DAR, maintaining this website as well as my own, getting my house ready to > sell and trying to keep up with 5 grown children and their crises (there's > always one). More than you wanted to know but I just can't work in > learning > another thing! I appreciate you explaining some of this to me and what I > would need to learn and the advice for fixing it. I'm sure it isn't > totally > corrected but just having all graphics except one back - I'm shouting > Hallelujah! > > Kathy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Judy Florian" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:53 PM > Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page All Judy > > > > Kathy, > > > > When I started, I knew zero about html. And CSS to me was -- "what he > > H(elp) is CSS?" I looked at it then and it made NO sense. Of course, > I > > didn't know a br from an hr, or a tb from a tr (in HTML code). So I > > started > > the HTML struggle (boy did it fight--lol). > > > > "Everyone" kept telling me "do CSS" and... well, I couldn't. I didn't > > understand HTML so how could I do CSS? > > > > I used Frontpage so I often looked at the HTML to see what it looked > like > > "inside." Slowly, it began to make sense. I'm a visual learner, so I > > had > > to "see" when I tell Frontpage to do "this" then this is how "this" > looks > > in > > HTML. I spent a (year? two?) learning HTML, learning to fix problems > > (some, > > not all) and more importantly, getting comfortable with coding. > > > > Now..... this year I decided to try CSS. It *is* easier in *some* > ways. > > It *is* cleaner. Somehow, it looks better on the screen. Pat G. made a > > template I could use. After a few months, I learned how to fix my first > > thing in CSS. (But if I didn't know HtML first, I wouldn't have known > how > > to fix the CSS problem.) > > > > I do kinda wish I had started out doing CSS. Now I have 2,000 html > pages > > so > > it'd be a huge job to convert all of them. So instead, I am going to > > convert to CSS just 20 pages for a "section" that I know I can add > to. I > > just converted images today (wow-- an accomplishment!). Tomorrow, I'll > > tackle fonts etc. Then the bigger job--- I have to copy out content and > > put > > it in the CSS pages. > > > > Anyway, I just wanted to give you both perspectives. It's okay to learn > > html first. But, if I had to do it again, I wish I could have done CSS > > from > > the beginning. > > > > Judy > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Washington County PA Websites: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~florian/ http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~florian/ http://freepages.religions.rootsweb.com/~florian/ http://www.rootsweb.com/~pawashin/

At 10:46 PM 11/30/2007, you wrote: >I'm so relieved to get the page back up and it will take me a while to get >the Resources page redone because that was where all my links to other pages >were. I thought I had a copy of the Web saved on a disk but only one page >saved. Copy and Paste into your own document http://www.the-gearys.com/kathy/Resources.htm pat

Judy, Thanks for the info. I have looked at the HTML in Front Page but boy does that look like a lot of work and time. Maybe someday when I slow down a bit I can learn how to do this. Does that mean that you have to type every bit of the code into every page? I tried to see why my picture wouldn't upload but it looked like it is referring to the correct file. I'm so relieved to get the page back up and it will take me a while to get the Resources page redone because that was where all my links to other pages were. I thought I had a copy of the Web saved on a disk but only one page saved. There are things I really don't like about Front Page so I may investigate some others. But right now I'm buying, refurbishing, and reselling houses, renting my condo in Hilton Head by the week, officer in DAR, maintaining this website as well as my own, getting my house ready to sell and trying to keep up with 5 grown children and their crises (there's always one). More than you wanted to know but I just can't work in learning another thing! I appreciate you explaining some of this to me and what I would need to learn and the advice for fixing it. I'm sure it isn't totally corrected but just having all graphics except one back - I'm shouting Hallelujah! Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Florian" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page All Judy > Kathy, > > When I started, I knew zero about html. And CSS to me was -- "what he > H(elp) is CSS?" I looked at it then and it made NO sense. Of course, I > didn't know a br from an hr, or a tb from a tr (in HTML code). So I > started > the HTML struggle (boy did it fight--lol). > > "Everyone" kept telling me "do CSS" and... well, I couldn't. I didn't > understand HTML so how could I do CSS? > > I used Frontpage so I often looked at the HTML to see what it looked like > "inside." Slowly, it began to make sense. I'm a visual learner, so I > had > to "see" when I tell Frontpage to do "this" then this is how "this" looks > in > HTML. I spent a (year? two?) learning HTML, learning to fix problems > (some, > not all) and more importantly, getting comfortable with coding. > > Now..... this year I decided to try CSS. It *is* easier in *some* ways. > It *is* cleaner. Somehow, it looks better on the screen. Pat G. made a > template I could use. After a few months, I learned how to fix my first > thing in CSS. (But if I didn't know HtML first, I wouldn't have known how > to fix the CSS problem.) > > I do kinda wish I had started out doing CSS. Now I have 2,000 html pages > so > it'd be a huge job to convert all of them. So instead, I am going to > convert to CSS just 20 pages for a "section" that I know I can add to. I > just converted images today (wow-- an accomplishment!). Tomorrow, I'll > tackle fonts etc. Then the bigger job--- I have to copy out content and > put > it in the CSS pages. > > Anyway, I just wanted to give you both perspectives. It's okay to learn > html first. But, if I had to do it again, I wish I could have done CSS > from > the beginning. > > Judy >

Kathy, When I started, I knew zero about html. And CSS to me was -- "what he H(elp) is CSS?" I looked at it then and it made NO sense. Of course, I didn't know a br from an hr, or a tb from a tr (in HTML code). So I started the HTML struggle (boy did it fight--lol). "Everyone" kept telling me "do CSS" and... well, I couldn't. I didn't understand HTML so how could I do CSS? I used Frontpage so I often looked at the HTML to see what it looked like "inside." Slowly, it began to make sense. I'm a visual learner, so I had to "see" when I tell Frontpage to do "this" then this is how "this" looks in HTML. I spent a (year? two?) learning HTML, learning to fix problems (some, not all) and more importantly, getting comfortable with coding. Now..... this year I decided to try CSS. It *is* easier in *some* ways. It *is* cleaner. Somehow, it looks better on the screen. Pat G. made a template I could use. After a few months, I learned how to fix my first thing in CSS. (But if I didn't know HtML first, I wouldn't have known how to fix the CSS problem.) I do kinda wish I had started out doing CSS. Now I have 2,000 html pages so it'd be a huge job to convert all of them. So instead, I am going to convert to CSS just 20 pages for a "section" that I know I can add to. I just converted images today (wow-- an accomplishment!). Tomorrow, I'll tackle fonts etc. Then the bigger job--- I have to copy out content and put it in the CSS pages. Anyway, I just wanted to give you both perspectives. It's okay to learn html first. But, if I had to do it again, I wish I could have done CSS from the beginning. Judy On 11/30/07, Patricia Geary <[email protected]> wrote: > > At 06:30 PM 11/30/2007, you wrote: > >I'm afraid to ask but, what is CSS? > > > CSS stands for Cascading Style Sheet. It is separating your content > (the html code) from the presentation (the styles that might your > page look like you want it to). > > From http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/ > > >Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) is a simple mechanism for adding style > >(e.g. fonts, colors, spacing) to Web documents. > > This is your site using an external style sheet > http://www.the-gearys.com/kathy/ > > This is the style sheet <http://www.the-gearys.com/kathy/henderson.css> > > http://www.the-gearys.com/kathy/henderson.css > > pat

Did somebody shake some magic dust over my website? For some reason, don't ask me, I uploaded the page "just one more time" and IT WORKS - all except the mountain picture that's supposed to be in the middle of the home page and I am going to have to completely redo the "resources" page because I lost everything in it. I have no idea what happened! Thanks to all of you for your help. I'm not sure I'm out of the woods yet but I certainly am way better off than a week ago! Kathy

At 06:30 PM 11/30/2007, you wrote: >I'm afraid to ask but, what is CSS? CSS stands for Cascading Style Sheet. It is separating your content (the html code) from the presentation (the styles that might your page look like you want it to). From http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/ >Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) is a simple mechanism for adding style >(e.g. fonts, colors, spacing) to Web documents. This is your site using an external style sheet http://www.the-gearys.com/kathy/ This is the style sheet <http://www.the-gearys.com/kathy/henderson.css> http://www.the-gearys.com/kathy/henderson.css pat

Sure - I usually do when working with Outlook but if I am on MediaCom's site it has a tendency to delete my message instead of cutting out what I want. Don't like to use it but it's the only way I can get all my messages to my computer when I'm using my laptop. I'm afraid to ask but, what is CSS? Thanks - believe I will have that cup of tea. Kathy

At 03:11 PM 11/30/2007, you wrote: >Well, I looked online to see what is #AE8DA4 > >If it is a color, I cannot find it anywhere online. What is #AE8DA4 > >So far, I *think* I have replaced just the images. Now I'm working on (I >think) the color that should load if a background image does not load. >Having trouble identifying what part of the CSS controls that aspect-- is it >the part that says (above) background: #D7C7D2 ? If so, I need a new >color, right, to go with the new image. I'm sending you an attachment off list but if you use this site http://slayeroffice.com/tools/color_palette/ you can plug in your base color and it will help you choose the various shades of that color. pat

Pat - It was never my intention to put myself out there as an expert, which you clearly are. I was just attempting to assist another webmaster with a frustrating problem. My comments are, of course, based on my own opinion and experience. It was my understanding that this list was for all of us who are muddling along with similar problems to offer our advice and experience to, hopefully, help each other. Not everyone wants to take the time to learn HTML and write code without the assistance of a wysiwig application. I know that a lot of people are still using FrontPage and only left it myself a short time ago. Still, if you follow web designer postings on websites and message boards dedicated to such things, it is abundantly clear that FrontPage, while great when it first came out because it let "the rest of us" do web design, was still a less-than-perfect solution for professionals because of it's limitations and funky coding methodology. FP Extensions did, and still do, frustrate anyone who decides to utilize a server that doesn't support them. Sorry if my comments offended you, but I do have a right to my opinion. You clearly have a very strong preference for hand-coding which is your right and hats off to you for being willing and able to take the time to learn proper, standardized coding, but that does not make it the only alternative for every user. Learning HTML simply isn't an option (or a goal) for everyone who wants to express themselves through the web. Judy - I'm in the same boat with learning the detailed ins and outs of CSS. How frustrating! Have you tried any of the "Heads Up" books? They have a wonderful one for HTML & CSS that is helping me understand things that I'd previously worked for months to grasp without any success. I highly recommend them and they can be picked up at any Barnes & Noble or other large bookseller's. Kathy - I would definitely not recommend GoLive to anyone that is a hobby web designer. It is not an easy application to learn, is practically the opposite of intuitive, and absolutely requires the user to have some knowledge and understanding of CSS and HTML as well as the concepts of layers, objects, and other more hard-core tools to maximize the application's power. Even more frustrating is the fact that, other than the documentation that comes with the application (which follows Adobe's usual "great application, terrible documentation" formula), there aren't many books out there to help you learn how to get the most out of the powerful tools that GoLive offers. Of course, this is just my opinion and some other web designers might have opinions to the contrary. If you ever do decide that you want to get a better understanding of HTML and how it works, you might try the "Heads Up" book that I recommended to Judy. A lot of people really swear by the learning style presented in these extremely informative books. As for what web development software to buy, I'd suggest searching through forums and asking others about their experiences, as well as checking out "free trial" offers before expending any money on something may turn out to be totally wrong for you. Sheila -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: ROOTSWEB-HELP Digest, Vol 2, Issue 153 Today's Topics: 1. Re: upload from Front Page (Patricia Geary) 2. Re: upload from Front Page (Kathy Summers) 3. Re: upload from Front Page All (Kathy Summers) 4. Re: upload from Front Page (Patricia Geary) 5. Re: upload from Front Page All (Judy Florian) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:47:00 -0500 From: Patricia Geary <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I agree with Pat that themes and such (which are coded in a way that is >distinctly FrontPage), should be avoided when working on RootsWeb servers. >This is because, to have such things display properly on every browser, the >server (RootsWeb) must have something called "FrontPage Extensions" >installed on it. FrontPage Server extensions are NOT required for the themes and shared borders to work on Rootsweb as evidenced by the number of people still using them. The do however seem to cause problems when you start "messing around" with them. Same is true in using the navigation features. THAT is the reason I recommend ditching them as there are much better ways of accomplishing the same thing. Use either frontpage includes or server side includes and design your own style sheet and layout based on the theme you have chosen. > FP Extensions were another way for Microsoft to make a >bunch of money by charging server providers tons of money to get their hands >on code that tells the server how to interpret the "non standard" coding >used by FrontPage. At one time, a lot of web page designers were using >FrontPage to design their pages because it required no knowledge of HTML. >Unfortunately, as many career web designers will tell you, Front Page adds >tons of garbage code that only FrontPage understands. How do I know this? >I used FrontPage for many years to design and build my own websites. I have >since gone over to Adobe GoLive and am still have a devil of a time removing >all of the garbage code from FrontPage that causes all manner of problems >with my website. ====================== There are still a lot of webpage designers using frontage and its successor Expression Web. The difference in their code is they have taken the time to learn the program and which features cause problems. FrontPage as well as any WYSIWYG program is only as good as the person using it. The same is true of handwriting your html code. If you do not know what you are doing and have a thorough understanding of coding you can create code that is just as bad with Notepad as you can with FP or ANY program. I have used FP and EW for many years now and I will stack the "clean code" against any written in Notepad. ======================= >Regarding my last post, it is standard practice to have one, single folder >for all images on a website. It makes it easier for you to remember where >things are and eliminates a lot of broken links when uploading to the >server. Pat may, however, be correct about themes and borders needing to >have images stored in places other than an "images" folder though, since >even FrontPage recommends the use of one folder, that seems unlikely. ===================== Good practice but maybe not standard practice. Using FrontPage themes, the images go where FP puts them NOT where you want them. FP creates a folder called borders where your borders reside and the derived folder holds the other stuff when using themes. The successor of Fp called Expression Web EW for short does not have themes included. It writes standard compliant code and makes extensive use of style sheets. It has an excellent css editor as part of the program. >========== >Finally, you wanted to get a better feel for what, exactly, FrontPage does. >In short, it takes your "wysiwig" (what you see is what you get) design and >formatting instructions and "translates" them into HTML based on what it >thinks you mean. ============== The best way to see exactly how fp is writing your code based on what you tell it to do in WYSIWYG mode is to work in split view. One the top you see your code as it is written and on the bottom you see your site in WYSIWYG view. =================== > Have you ever used a language translator online? If so, >it's the same kind of process. FP looks at what you just told it to do and >"interprets" that information into HTML to the best of it's ability. The >downside is much the same as you see in online language translators: things >are translated without regard for what surrounds them, so the result may >turn out to be the HTML equivalent of "pigeon English". Front Page doesn't >always realize that what you are doing at this moment is intended to replace >what you had previously done or what was already there. As a result, it >frequently adds the new coding without removing the old, obsolete coding. >This results in lots of conflicts and extraneous information that can easily >confuse a server. The only way to find all of these conflicts is, in many >case, to review the source code line by line. This is all well and good if >you understand HTML but is like reading and trying to find syntax errors in >Greek when you don't know the language. This is why so many people have >moved away from FrontPage, causing it to be discontinued by Microsoft. Unless you take the time to learn some basic html coding and css you will never be able to fix the problems caused by ANY html editor be it frontpage, Dreamweaver, Golive or notepad. Pat ---------- Pat Geary, Microsoft MVP - FrontPage We discuss FrontPage and Expression Web http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gearyfamily/frontpage/ http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gearyfamily/expression-web/ Genealogy Web Design Tips and Tutorials http://www.genealogy-web-creations.com/ http://www.genealogy-computer-tips.com/ - Blog ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:58:46 +0000 From: [email protected] (Kathy Summers) Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page To: [email protected] Message-ID: <113020071458.18121.4750252600033FE0000046C9219791336303010CD2079C080C03BFC [email protected]> Pat, Regarding your following comment: "There are still a lot of webpage designers using frontage and its successor Expression Web. The difference in their code is they have taken the time to learn the program and which features cause problems. FrontPage as well as any WYSIWYG program is only as good as the person using it. The same is true of handwriting your html code. If you do not know what you are doing and have a thorough understanding of coding you can create code that is just as bad with Notepad as you can with FP or ANY program. I have used FP and EW for many years now and I will stack the "clean code" against any written in Notepad." Gee, that's a little tough. This is a volunteer position and I do have other things to do. Sorry - I'm doing the best I can. Kathy ---------------------- Original Message: --------------------- From: Patricia Geary <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:48:57 +0000 > > >I agree with Pat that themes and such (which are coded in a way that is > >distinctly FrontPage), should be avoided when working on RootsWeb servers. > >This is because, to have such things display properly on every browser, the > >server (RootsWeb) must have something called "FrontPage Extensions" > >installed on it. > > FrontPage Server extensions are NOT required for the themes and > shared borders to work on Rootsweb as evidenced by the number of > people still using them. The do however seem to cause problems when > you start "messing around" with them. Same is true in using the > navigation features. THAT is the reason I recommend ditching them as > there are much better ways of accomplishing the same thing. Use > either frontpage includes or server side includes and design your own > style sheet and layout based on the theme you have chosen. > > > FP Extensions were another way for Microsoft to make a > >bunch of money by charging server providers tons of money to get their hands > >on code that tells the server how to interpret the "non standard" coding > >used by FrontPage. At one time, a lot of web page designers were using > >FrontPage to design their pages because it required no knowledge of HTML. > >Unfortunately, as many career web designers will tell you, Front Page adds > >tons of garbage code that only FrontPage understands. How do I know this? > >I used FrontPage for many years to design and build my own websites. I have > >since gone over to Adobe GoLive and am still have a devil of a time removing > >all of the garbage code from FrontPage that causes all manner of problems > >with my website. > > ====================== > > There are still a lot of webpage designers using frontage and its > successor Expression Web. The difference in their code is they have > taken the time to learn the program and which features cause > problems. FrontPage as well as any WYSIWYG program is only as good as > the person using it. The same is true of handwriting your html code. > If you do not know what you are doing and have a thorough > understanding of coding you can create code that is just as bad with > Notepad as you can with FP or ANY program. I have used FP and EW for > many years now and I will stack the "clean code" against any written > in Notepad. > ======================= > > >Regarding my last post, it is standard practice to have one, single folder > >for all images on a website. It makes it easier for you to remember where > >things are and eliminates a lot of broken links when uploading to the > >server. Pat may, however, be correct about themes and borders needing to > >have images stored in places other than an "images" folder though, since > >even FrontPage recommends the use of one folder, that seems unlikely. > ===================== > Good practice but maybe not standard practice. Using FrontPage > themes, the images go where FP puts them NOT where you want them. FP > creates a folder called borders where your borders reside and the > derived folder holds the other stuff when using themes. The successor > of Fp called Expression Web EW for short does not have themes > included. It writes standard compliant code and makes extensive use > of style sheets. It has an excellent css editor as part of the program. > >========== > >Finally, you wanted to get a better feel for what, exactly, FrontPage does. > >In short, it takes your "wysiwig" (what you see is what you get) design and > >formatting instructions and "translates" them into HTML based on what it > >thinks you mean. > ============== > The best way to see exactly how fp is writing your code based on what > you tell it to do in WYSIWYG mode is to work in split view. One the > top you see your code as it is written and on the bottom you see your > site in WYSIWYG view. > > =================== > > > Have you ever used a language translator online? If so, > >it's the same kind of process. FP looks at what you just told it to do and > >"interprets" that information into HTML to the best of it's ability. The > >downside is much the same as you see in online language translators: things > >are translated without regard for what surrounds them, so the result may > >turn out to be the HTML equivalent of "pigeon English". Front Page doesn't > >always realize that what you are doing at this moment is intended to replace > >what you had previously done or what was already there. As a result, it > >frequently adds the new coding without removing the old, obsolete coding. > >This results in lots of conflicts and extraneous information that can easily > >confuse a server. The only way to find all of these conflicts is, in many > >case, to review the source code line by line. This is all well and good if > >you understand HTML but is like reading and trying to find syntax errors in > >Greek when you don't know the language. This is why so many people have > >moved away from FrontPage, causing it to be discontinued by Microsoft. > > Unless you take the time to learn some basic html coding and css you > will never be able to fix the problems caused by ANY html editor be > it frontpage, Dreamweaver, Golive or notepad. > > Pat > > > > > ---------- > Pat Geary, Microsoft MVP - FrontPage > We discuss FrontPage and Expression Web > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gearyfamily/frontpage/ > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gearyfamily/expression-web/ > > Genealogy Web Design Tips and Tutorials > http://www.genealogy-web-creations.com/ > http://www.genealogy-computer-tips.com/ - Blog > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:01:41 +0000 From: [email protected] (Kathy Summers) Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page All To: [email protected] Message-ID: <113020071501.23970.475025D4000A767200005DA2219791336303010CD2079C080C03BFC [email protected]> I'm sorry for the double posts. Mediacom sometimes does that and right now I'm posting from their website, not Outlook. Please ignore the doubles. Kathy ---------------------- Original Message: --------------------- From: [email protected] (Kathy Summers) To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:59:46 +0000 > > Pat, > Regarding your following comment: > "There are still a lot of webpage designers using frontage and its > successor Expression Web. The difference in their code is they have > taken the time to learn the program and which features cause > problems. FrontPage as well as any WYSIWYG program is only as good as > the person using it. The same is true of handwriting your html code. > If you do not know what you are doing and have a thorough > understanding of coding you can create code that is just as bad with > Notepad as you can with FP or ANY program. I have used FP and EW for > many years now and I will stack the "clean code" against any written > in Notepad." > > Gee, that's a little tough. This is a volunteer position and I do have other > things to do. Sorry - I'm doing the best I can. > Kathy > > > > > ---------------------- Original Message: --------------------- > From: Patricia Geary <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page > Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:48:57 +0000 > > > > > >I agree with Pat that themes and such (which are coded in a way that is > > >distinctly FrontPage), should be avoided when working on RootsWeb servers. > > >This is because, to have such things display properly on every browser, the > > >server (RootsWeb) must have something called "FrontPage Extensions" > > >installed on it. > > > > FrontPage Server extensions are NOT required for the themes and > > shared borders to work on Rootsweb as evidenced by the number of > > people still using them. The do however seem to cause problems when > > you start "messing around" with them. Same is true in using the > > navigation features. THAT is the reason I recommend ditching them as > > there are much better ways of accomplishing the same thing. Use > > either frontpage includes or server side includes and design your own > > style sheet and layout based on the theme you have chosen. > > > > > FP Extensions were another way for Microsoft to make a > > >bunch of money by charging server providers tons of money to get their hands > > >on code that tells the server how to interpret the "non standard" coding > > >used by FrontPage. At one time, a lot of web page designers were using > > >FrontPage to design their pages because it required no knowledge of HTML. > > >Unfortunately, as many career web designers will tell you, Front Page adds > > >tons of garbage code that only FrontPage understands. How do I know this? > > >I used FrontPage for many years to design and build my own websites. I have > > >since gone over to Adobe GoLive and am still have a devil of a time removing > > >all of the garbage code from FrontPage that causes all manner of problems > > >with my website. > > > > ====================== > > > > There are still a lot of webpage designers using frontage and its > > successor Expression Web. The difference in their code is they have > > taken the time to learn the program and which features cause > > problems. FrontPage as well as any WYSIWYG program is only as good as > > the person using it. The same is true of handwriting your html code. > > If you do not know what you are doing and have a thorough > > understanding of coding you can create code that is just as bad with > > Notepad as you can with FP or ANY program. I have used FP and EW for > > many years now and I will stack the "clean code" against any written > > in Notepad. > > ======================= > > > > >Regarding my last post, it is standard practice to have one, single folder > > >for all images on a website. It makes it easier for you to remember where > > >things are and eliminates a lot of broken links when uploading to the > > >server. Pat may, however, be correct about themes and borders needing to > > >have images stored in places other than an "images" folder though, since > > >even FrontPage recommends the use of one folder, that seems unlikely. > > ===================== > > Good practice but maybe not standard practice. Using FrontPage > > themes, the images go where FP puts them NOT where you want them. FP > > creates a folder called borders where your borders reside and the > > derived folder holds the other stuff when using themes. The successor > > of Fp called Expression Web EW for short does not have themes > > included. It writes standard compliant code and makes extensive use > > of style sheets. It has an excellent css editor as part of the program. > > >========== > > >Finally, you wanted to get a better feel for what, exactly, FrontPage does. > > >In short, it takes your "wysiwig" (what you see is what you get) design and > > >formatting instructions and "translates" them into HTML based on what it > > >thinks you mean. > > ============== > > The best way to see exactly how fp is writing your code based on what > > you tell it to do in WYSIWYG mode is to work in split view. One the > > top you see your code as it is written and on the bottom you see your > > site in WYSIWYG view. > > > > =================== > > > > > Have you ever used a language translator online? If so, > > >it's the same kind of process. FP looks at what you just told it to do and > > >"interprets" that information into HTML to the best of it's ability. The > > >downside is much the same as you see in online language translators: things > > >are translated without regard for what surrounds them, so the result may > > >turn out to be the HTML equivalent of "pigeon English". Front Page doesn't > > >always realize that what you are doing at this moment is intended to replace > > >what you had previously done or what was already there. As a result, it > > >frequently adds the new coding without removing the old, obsolete coding. > > >This results in lots of conflicts and extraneous information that can easily > > >confuse a server. The only way to find all of these conflicts is, in many > > >case, to review the source code line by line. This is all well and good if > > >you understand HTML but is like reading and trying to find syntax errors in > > >Greek when you don't know the language. This is why so many people have > > >moved away from FrontPage, causing it to be discontinued by Microsoft. > > > > Unless you take the time to learn some basic html coding and css you > > will never be able to fix the problems caused by ANY html editor be > > it frontpage, Dreamweaver, Golive or notepad. > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > Pat Geary, Microsoft MVP - FrontPage > > We discuss FrontPage and Expression Web > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gearyfamily/frontpage/ > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gearyfamily/expression-web/ > > > > Genealogy Web Design Tips and Tutorials > > http://www.genealogy-web-creations.com/ > > http://www.genealogy-computer-tips.com/ - Blog > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:14:56 -0500 From: Patricia Geary <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:58 AM 11/30/2007, Kathy Summers wrote: >Gee, that's a little tough. This is a volunteer position and I do have other >things to do. Sorry - I'm doing the best I can. This is in no way aimed at you or any other volunteer. It is a simple statement to those who seem to blame frontpage for writing bad code. FrontPage does what you tell it to do. Each version is a little bit better than the last one BUT you do need to understand what html code is and how to use it or any program in order to fix things when they go wrong. If you took it as a statement just for you I am sorry. It was a response to Sheila's comments about FrontPage. I would imagine all of us on this list are volunteers and do the best we can. Again my apologies if you took offense. It was not meant that way. pat ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:32:11 -0500 From: "Judy Florian" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page All To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Kathy, I wanted to mention that it will help if you could <snip> (delete) any parts of other people's posts when you make a reply. Just highlight all the words you want to get rid of and hit delete, and just keep the part you are replying "to." That will help other subscribers; we won't have to re-scroll through a Digest of posts we already read (especially on gmail where replies are "stacked" one after another -- I might have to "scroll" 10 pages to get to a NEW reply). Deleting <snipping> parts of previous replies or the rest of the Digest also saves server space and handling of email. Usually, this list "bounces" messages when they get way too long. But lately, the longggg posts of repeated-whole digests are getting through. And, I wanted to say--- Don't get frustrated. You WILL learn this webmaking stuff and it WILL get easier. As I say that, I'm learning CSS now and pulling my hair OUT. Couldn't we both just throw up our hands (LOL) and go get a cup of tea and forget this junk? LOLOL Judy On 11/30/07, Kathy Summers <[email protected]> wrote: > > I'm sorry for the double posts. Mediacom sometimes does that and right > now > I'm posting from their website, not Outlook. Please ignore the doubles. > Kathy ------------------------------ To contact the ROOTSWEB-HELP list administrator, send an email to [email protected] To post a message to the ROOTSWEB-HELP mailing list, send an email to [email protected] __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of ROOTSWEB-HELP Digest, Vol 2, Issue 153 *********************************************

On 11/30/07, Patricia Geary <[email protected]> wrote: > > But think how good it feels when the light bulb goes off and you > finally "get it!" CSS is not learned over night but it is well worth > the effort you put into it. > > pat who is still learning css > === Well,I keep trying but--- I'm lost and it's only been 5 minutes since I re-started my efforts. LOL In the template you made for me, you have this: this styles the middle div or container ===================== */ #container { margin: 20px auto 20px auto; width: 95%; /* decrease width to add more padding to outer layer*/; background: #D7C7D2 url('images/mu25bkgd.jpg '); padding: 10px; /* increase number to add more padding*/ border: #AE8DA4 3px ridge; } /* ===================== Well, I looked online to see what is #AE8DA4 If it is a color, I cannot find it anywhere online. What is #AE8DA4 So far, I *think* I have replaced just the images. Now I'm working on (I think) the color that should load if a background image does not load. Having trouble identifying what part of the CSS controls that aspect-- is it the part that says (above) background: #D7C7D2 ? If so, I need a new color, right, to go with the new image. Judy

I'm sorry for the double posts. Mediacom sometimes does that and right now I'm posting from their website, not Outlook. Please ignore the doubles. Kathy ---------------------- Original Message: --------------------- From: [email protected] (Kathy Summers) To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:59:46 +0000 > > Pat, > Regarding your following comment: > "There are still a lot of webpage designers using frontage and its > successor Expression Web. The difference in their code is they have > taken the time to learn the program and which features cause > problems. FrontPage as well as any WYSIWYG program is only as good as > the person using it. The same is true of handwriting your html code. > If you do not know what you are doing and have a thorough > understanding of coding you can create code that is just as bad with > Notepad as you can with FP or ANY program. I have used FP and EW for > many years now and I will stack the "clean code" against any written > in Notepad." > > Gee, that's a little tough. This is a volunteer position and I do have other > things to do. Sorry - I'm doing the best I can. > Kathy > > > > > ---------------------- Original Message: --------------------- > From: Patricia Geary <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [ROOTSWEB-HELP] upload from Front Page > Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:48:57 +0000 > > > > > >I agree with Pat that themes and such (which are coded in a way that is > > >distinctly FrontPage), should be avoided when working on RootsWeb servers. > > >This is because, to have such things display properly on every browser, the > > >server (RootsWeb) must have something called "FrontPage Extensions" > > >installed on it. > > > > FrontPage Server extensions are NOT required for the themes and > > shared borders to work on Rootsweb as evidenced by the number of > > people still using them. The do however seem to cause problems when > > you start "messing around" with them. Same is true in using the > > navigation features. THAT is the reason I recommend ditching them as > > there are much better ways of accomplishing the same thing. Use > > either frontpage includes or server side includes and design your own > > style sheet and layout based on the theme you have chosen. > > > > > FP Extensions were another way for Microsoft to make a > > >bunch of money by charging server providers tons of money to get their hands > > >on code that tells the server how to interpret the "non standard" coding > > >used by FrontPage. At one time, a lot of web page designers were using > > >FrontPage to design their pages because it required no knowledge of HTML. > > >Unfortunately, as many career web designers will tell you, Front Page adds > > >tons of garbage code that only FrontPage understands. How do I know this? > > >I used FrontPage for many years to design and build my own websites. I have > > >since gone over to Adobe GoLive and am still have a devil of a time removing > > >all of the garbage code from FrontPage that causes all manner of problems > > >with my website. > > > > ====================== > > > > There are still a lot of webpage designers using frontage and its > > successor Expression Web. The difference in their code is they have > > taken the time to learn the program and which features cause > > problems. FrontPage as well as any WYSIWYG program is only as good as > > the person using it. The same is true of handwriting your html code. > > If you do not know what you are doing and have a thorough > > understanding of coding you can create code that is just as bad with > > Notepad as you can with FP or ANY program. I have used FP and EW for > > many years now and I will stack the "clean code" against any written > > in Notepad. > > ======================= > > > > >Regarding my last post, it is standard practice to have one, single folder > > >for all images on a website. It makes it easier for you to remember where > > >things are and eliminates a lot of broken links when uploading to the > > >server. Pat may, however, be correct about themes and borders needing to > > >have images stored in places other than an "images" folder though, since > > >even FrontPage recommends the use of one folder, that seems unlikely. > > ===================== > > Good practice but maybe not standard practice. Using FrontPage > > themes, the images go where FP puts them NOT where you want them. FP > > creates a folder called borders where your borders reside and the > > derived folder holds the other stuff when using themes. The successor > > of Fp called Expression Web EW for short does not have themes > > included. It writes standard compliant code and makes extensive use > > of style sheets. It has an excellent css editor as part of the program. > > >========== > > >Finally, you wanted to get a better feel for what, exactly, FrontPage does. > > >In short, it takes your "wysiwig" (what you see is what you get) design and > > >formatting instructions and "translates" them into HTML based on what it > > >thinks you mean. > > ============== > > The best way to see exactly how fp is writing your code based on what > > you tell it to do in WYSIWYG mode is to work in split view. One the > > top you see your code as it is written and on the bottom you see your > > site in WYSIWYG view. > > > > =================== > > > > > Have you ever used a language translator online? If so, > > >it's the same kind of process. FP looks at what you just told it to do and > > >"interprets" that information into HTML to the best of it's ability. The > > >downside is much the same as you see in online language translators: things > > >are translated without regard for what surrounds them, so the result may > > >turn out to be the HTML equivalent of "pigeon English". Front Page doesn't > > >always realize that what you are doing at this moment is intended to replace > > >what you had previously done or what was already there. As a result, it > > >frequently adds the new coding without removing the old, obsolete coding. > > >This results in lots of conflicts and extraneous information that can easily > > >confuse a server. The only way to find all of these conflicts is, in many > > >case, to review the source code line by line. This is all well and good if > > >you understand HTML but is like reading and trying to find syntax errors in > > >Greek when you don't know the language. This is why so many people have > > >moved away from FrontPage, causing it to be discontinued by Microsoft. > > > > Unless you take the time to learn some basic html coding and css you > > will never be able to fix the problems caused by ANY html editor be > > it frontpage, Dreamweaver, Golive or notepad. > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > Pat Geary, Microsoft MVP - FrontPage > > We discuss FrontPage and Expression Web > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gearyfamily/frontpage/ > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gearyfamily/expression-web/ > > > > Genealogy Web Design Tips and Tutorials > > http://www.genealogy-web-creations.com/ > > http://www.genealogy-computer-tips.com/ - Blog > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message