The busy discussion under the topic "RootsMagic 6 - sorting of birth, death and burial events when all occur in the same year" failed to highlight the fact that RootsMagic 6 does not even have a tool with which one can readily find these out-of-natural-order events when they are dated the same or not at all. So even those users who think that having control over the Sort date is all they need are faced with having to detect such disturbing sequences by laborious, manual inspection followed by even more laborious, manual editing of the Sort date. To get a picture of the size of the problem, I developed a SQLite script that does not modify your data but does report many kinds of 'unnatural' sequences that could be jarring in the Edit Person or RM Explorer screens or in the Timeline View and may make a disturbing sequence of events and sentences in reports. It's found at http://sqlitetoolsforrootsmagic.wikispaces.com/Facts+-+Sort+Order+Problems and is experimental and not optimised for speed. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Tom Holden Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 1:53 PM To: rootsmagic-users@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [RMagic] RootsMagic 6 - sorting of birth, death and burial events when all occur in the same year Merry Xmas day, everyone! Remarkable discussion for a big holiday ;-) My SQLite script works only on selected events having the same date. If memory serves, that may include undated events. It does not address your example, Bruce, of undated birth and death relative to a dated marriage. Perhaps one could address those cases but is it not preferable that the user input, at the least, estimated dates for birth and death? That helps to narrow the results of searches on databases and is almost essential to the analysis of potentially relevant data, e.g., the TimeLine View. I think SortDate is a great feature for controlling the order of facts but it is also underutilized by users and the program could exploit it more than it does. Cheers! Tom On 2012-12-25, at 11:48 AM, RootsMagic <rootsmagic@gmail.com> wrote: > Paul, > > I think I understand how dates and sort dates work ;-) > > What I meant by saying if there is no date (thus no sort date), is > that what is being asked for is for RM to *automatically* put those > events in BMD order. If I enter a birth and death event with no date, > RM does not just make up a sort date (thus no sort date by default). > > So if I entered the events as per my original post (birth and death > with no date... and no sort date, and a marriage with a date), how > does Tom's script handle that? Adding a -# to a sort date that > doesn't exist won't work like it does when there *is* a sort date. > > - Also, if I have a birth and death with no date (and therefor no > automatic sort date), should RM make up sort dates based on the other > events in the person's life to try and make the birth appear before > them and the death to appear after them? > > - Additionally, if it *did* make up sort dates based on other events > in the person's life... how far should it adjust them before (or > after) the existing events? > > - And if it *did* make up sort dates based on other events, and the > user later added an event before the fake birth sort date or after the > fake death sort date, should RM re-adjust the fake sort dates to keep > them in place. > > - And if it *did* make up sort dates, how should those sort dates be > handled when RM needs to show multiple people's events together (like > in a timeline)? > > We have tried in the past to explain the complexities behind this, but > some folks seem to think we are just being lazy or unwilling to listen > to users on this topic. > > - Bruce > http://www.rootsmagic.com > > > On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 9:19 AM, Paul Studly <paulstudly@att.net> wrote: >> A sort date is not the same as an event date. See your book and the >> event >> entry screen >> >> birth bef 1800 >> married 1800 >> death aft 1800 >> >> Paul A. Studly, Esq. >> Chesterland/Cleveland, OH >> 440-829-9207 Verizon cell >> paulstudly@studly.net >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: RootsMagic <rootsmagic@gmail.com> >> To: "rootsmagic-users@rootsweb.com" <rootsmagic-users@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tue, December 25, 2012 9:39:05 AM >> Subject: Re: [RMagic] RootsMagic 6 - sorting of birth, death and burial >> events >> when all occur in the same year >> >> Jerry, >> >> I haven't tried Tom's script, but I see that it puts a -# on the end of >> the >> sort date. I'm asking the following questions just to get an idea of how >> it handles situations which aren't simply two events with the same date. >> >> How does it handle a birth and death where neither has a date (and >> therefore no sort dates). >> >> How does it handle a situation like this? >> >> Married 1800 >> Born (no date) >> Died (no date) >> >> - Bruce >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 25, 2012, Jerry Bryan wrote: >> >>> Although it is a total crock... what if I have a single birth source >>> with a date of 1900, and a single death source with a date of 1899? >>> >>> Which order should we display this? >>> >>> Born 1900 >>> Died 1899 >>> >>> or >>> >>> Died 1899 >>> Born 1900 >>> >>> Keep in mind that whatever order you choose, someone else will want it >>> the other way. >>> >>> - Bruce >>> http://www.rootsmagic.com >>> >>> >>> Bruce, your point is well taken with this particular example. I’m >>> doubtful >>> that you would get disagreement from very many users that the default >>> order >>> in the case below should be death before birth, and that the user could >>> override the default order by using sort dates: >>> >>> Died 1899 >>> Born 1900 >>> >>> >>> >>> But that’s not the issue at hand. The issue at hand and what has always >>> been the issue is when the dates are the same. When the dates are the >>> same, >>> the following is just wrong. >>> >>> Died 1900 >>> Born 1900 >>> >>> >>> Just to amplify this point further, Tom Holden’s neat little SQLite >>> script >>> to fix obvious event ordering problems will fix the “died 1900, born >>> 1900” >>> case (as well it should), and his script will not fix the “born 1899, >>> died >>> 1900” case (as well it should not). The “born 1899, died 1900” case >>> should >>> only be fixed by some sort of conscious decision by the user – such as >>> adding sort dates or such as deciding that the death source is more >>> credible than the birth source or vice versa. >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> =================================== >>> RM list Archives: >>> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/ROOTSMAGIC-USERS/ >>> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?path=ROOTSMAGIC-USERS >>> WISH LIST: http://www.rootsmagic.com/forums/ BLOG: >>> http://blog.rootsmagic.com/ >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> ROOTSMAGIC-USERS-request@rootsweb.com <javascript:;> with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>> message >> >> >> >> -- >> - Bruce >> http://www.rootsmagic.com >> >> >> =================================== >> RM list Archives: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/ROOTSMAGIC-USERS/ >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?path=ROOTSMAGIC-USERS >> WISH LIST: http://www.rootsmagic.com/forums/ BLOG: >> http://blog.rootsmagic.com/ >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ROOTSMAGIC-USERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> =================================== >> RM list Archives: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/ROOTSMAGIC-USERS/ >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?path=ROOTSMAGIC-USERS >> WISH LIST: http://www.rootsmagic.com/forums/ BLOG: >> http://blog.rootsmagic.com/ >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ROOTSMAGIC-USERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > =================================== > RM list Archives: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/ROOTSMAGIC-USERS/ > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?path=ROOTSMAGIC-USERS > WISH LIST: http://www.rootsmagic.com/forums/ BLOG: > http://blog.rootsmagic.com/ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ROOTSMAGIC-USERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message