Or, not a "non-paternal event" at all. I have a Bruce line that goes back, and matches, a Bruce line in Scone, Scotland. "My" line originates in Virginia, with John Bruce who immigrated bef 1748, and his "second wife/mother of his children" (he apparently left Wife 1 in Scotland, alive and well), Margaret. We know he left for Scotland (return to first family?) and Margaret and children stayed behind. On another line, The Rev Robert Bruce was born in Scone, Perthshire, Scotland in 1778, attended U of Edinburgh, emigrated to the US ca 1801. He became chancellor of the "Western University of Pennsylvania", now the University of Pittsburgh. His history is well documented in church records. In the yDNA groups, these two are quite close, implying a common ancestor within a couple of generations. Now, then, there are two other names with this close yDNA groupings. One, (Burton) perhaps, is a "NPE", but the other, Boyd, appears to stem from an earlier ancestor, as We have to understand here that we didn't always have surnames, even if we did always have paternal ancestors <G>. Here's something I wrote sometime back on this subject: " For kicks, I looked up one of my yDNA name challenges,Brus/Bruce. We have Peter de Brus, The reference has ...pro Petro de Brus. -- Dominus rex concessit Petro de Brus quod mercatum suum quod teneri... (Dec 1227) and other similar references. The forenames are Pterus, Petro, and range from 1227 to 1231.. ." So, the surname (as an "of Brus") occurred as early as 1227. For common people, the surnames came much later. It is possible that some cousins or brothers (without surnames) took the names of Brus and others took the name Boyd. Or, some of these could have been serfs of a Brus and others serfs of a Boyd, and "assigned" the names. I suppose you *could* call this a "non-paternal" event, but not in the sense we usually see it. We're not talking about adoption or "different-father" events, we are talking about the choosing of surname. Also, combining this with the high frequency of cousin marriages at that time and in that place, I suspect there would be a compression of the yDNA "generations." However, I am no expert in the DNA issues. I just feel that people should look at all the possibilities, rather than focusing on a few. So, to use the example below, both the Walkers and Harrelsons could descend from an ancestor with no surname, or an entirely different surname. Pat In Tucson -----Original Message----- From: roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of BARTON LEWIS Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 6:44 PM To: viking@rvi.net Cc: roots-l@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ROOTS-L] DNA I see that I have confused Joyce's and Kristen's particular scenarios. Sorry about that. It is entirely possible that the common ancestor to the Walker-Harrelson group had the name Walker and, as you say, no other Walker descendant has tested. The NPE occurred and several descendants of the Harrelsons (after they became Harrelsons, though descended from a Walker) tested and matched. Or it could be the other way around. The point is that these people share a common ancestor, and you don't know where the NPE occurred (and therefore whether the common ancestor was a Walker or a Harrelson). If someone has no matches with their surname, and it is a somewhat common surname, but they match with another surname, that indicates the possibility that they descend from the other surname originally. But it's not proof. Barton

For those interested in the "name" thing, go here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/familyhistory/get_started/surnames_01.shtml " New surnames continued to be formed long after 1400, and immigrants brought in new ones. Many Irish and Highland Scottish names derive from Gaelic personal names, as do those of the Welsh, who only began to adopt the English system of surnames following the union of the two countries in 1536. This is all too far back to be helpful in researching family origins, although the study of a particular surname may be useful when the investigation points to an area where it appears often." And this: http://www.gen-find.com/assets/uploads/surname_origins__history_741.pdf Pat -----Original Message----- From: roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kith-n-Kin Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 10:18 AM To: 'BARTON LEWIS' Cc: roots-l@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ROOTS-L] DNA Or, not a "non-paternal event" at all. I have a Bruce line that goes back, and matches, a Bruce line in Scone, Scotland. "My" line originates in Virginia, with John Bruce who immigrated bef 1748, and his "second wife/mother of his children" (he apparently left Wife 1 in Scotland, alive and well), Margaret. We know he left for Scotland (return to first family?) and Margaret and children stayed behind. On another line, The Rev Robert Bruce was born in Scone, Perthshire, Scotland in 1778, attended U of Edinburgh, emigrated to the US ca 1801. He became chancellor of the "Western University of Pennsylvania", now the University of Pittsburgh. His history is well documented in church records. In the yDNA groups, these two are quite close, implying a common ancestor within a couple of generations. Now, then, there are two other names with this close yDNA groupings. One, (Burton) perhaps, is a "NPE", but the other, Boyd, appears to stem from an earlier ancestor, as We have to understand here that we didn't always have surnames, even if we did always have paternal ancestors <G>. Here's something I wrote sometime back on this subject: " For kicks, I looked up one of my yDNA name challenges,Brus/Bruce. We have Peter de Brus, The reference has ...pro Petro de Brus. -- Dominus rex concessit Petro de Brus quod mercatum suum quod teneri... (Dec 1227) and other similar references. The forenames are Pterus, Petro, and range from 1227 to 1231.. ." So, the surname (as an "of Brus") occurred as early as 1227. For common people, the surnames came much later. It is possible that some cousins or brothers (without surnames) took the names of Brus and others took the name Boyd. Or, some of these could have been serfs of a Brus and others serfs of a Boyd, and "assigned" the names. I suppose you *could* call this a "non-paternal" event, but not in the sense we usually see it. We're not talking about adoption or "different-father" events, we are talking about the choosing of surname. Also, combining this with the high frequency of cousin marriages at that time and in that place, I suspect there would be a compression of the yDNA "generations." However, I am no expert in the DNA issues. I just feel that people should look at all the possibilities, rather than focusing on a few. So, to use the example below, both the Walkers and Harrelsons could descend from an ancestor with no surname, or an entirely different surname. Pat In Tucson -----Original Message----- From: roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of BARTON LEWIS Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 6:44 PM To: viking@rvi.net Cc: roots-l@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ROOTS-L] DNA I see that I have confused Joyce's and Kristen's particular scenarios. Sorry about that. It is entirely possible that the common ancestor to the Walker-Harrelson group had the name Walker and, as you say, no other Walker descendant has tested. The NPE occurred and several descendants of the Harrelsons (after they became Harrelsons, though descended from a Walker) tested and matched. Or it could be the other way around. The point is that these people share a common ancestor, and you don't know where the NPE occurred (and therefore whether the common ancestor was a Walker or a Harrelson). If someone has no matches with their surname, and it is a somewhat common surname, but they match with another surname, that indicates the possibility that they descend from the other surname originally. But it's not proof. Barton ===== If you would prefer digest mode to mail mode, drop a note to roots-admin@rootsweb.com and ask for the digest... ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message