Linda I googled Libby prison records And found this reference: http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/249.html Go down to 249.3.2 records relating to individual federal prisoners of war There are some records at Fold3, but not an entire roster of inmates that I can see. Good luck, Pat In Tucson -----Original Message----- From: roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of LINDA WHITNEY Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 7:09 AM To: roots@rootsweb.com Subject: [ROOTS-L] Libby Prison Does anyone know if there are records from Libby Prison? My ancestor, Capt. Martin Scherff, was a prisoner there. Thanks. ________________________________________ Conserve resources. Print only when necessary. NOTE NEW eMAIL ADDRESS : Effective March 31, 2012, the New York State Office of Mental Health (OMH) will no longer accept mail addressed to the "omh.state.ny.us" domain. Please update your address book to reflect our new email domain of "omh.ny.gov”. IMPORTANT NOTICE : This message and any attachments are solely for the intended recipient and may contain confidential information which is, or may be, legally privileged or otherwise protected by law from further disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, use, or distribution of the information included in this e-mail and any attachments is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments. ===== If you would prefer digest mode to mail mode, drop a note to roots-admin@rootsweb.com and ask for the digest... ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Lynn Its a shame I can't email you directly they keep coming back to me, I would have liked to send you the document I have here re John Rebecca Fuller. This is what comes back to me. I would love to know how Gayla came about John and Rebecca being Henry's parents though. Kind regards Dianna - The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- <marylindsay1@comcast.net> (reason: 554 imta28.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net comcast 211.29.132.242 Comcast block ) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 554 5.0.0 Service unavailable

Gale: That sounds like a truly ideal day! Suzanne ----- >I drove to Crockett, TX yesterday to look at a book someone published years >ago on one branch of my family. The information I found broke through one >of my walls and gave me a jump start on the next. Volunteers were very >helpful at the Houston County Historical Commission. But the main "thank >you" has to be to the person who did the research 50 years ago and >persisted to publish a book. > This person's work was well documented. She often listed her findings, for > example a census, and her steps to decide which name in the list actually > belonged in this tree. > On the drive back to Houston I took a little side step to find a great > grandfather's grave and took a picture of the headstone. Lot of progress > for a rainy day.

Hi Lynn That is so nice of you and it's very much appreciated. While I had the subscription I collected all the Fullers on the 1830 and 1840 census and I'm just working off that at the moment. Samuel is the only one I found on the 1820 Census in Tioga, don't know if there is any connection but I have made some enquires there. Thank you very much once again. Kindest regards Dianna

By now, I think it's clear to everyone that comcast.com is blocking email from optusnet.com.au I suggest that comcast users complain directly to comcast. (Or switch to a better email host.) There is nothing that anyone on ROOTS-L can do. Drew Smith On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 6:17 PM, dianna charles <diamonddi57@optusnet.com.au> wrote: > Hi Barbara >     The same thing has just happened when I sent an email to you: > > Hi Barbara >     Thanks for that  I will try the way you suggest, I don't know if I'm > being blocked at Lynn's end or what's happening.  I will give it another go. > Regards Dianna > The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > <bayofcc@comcast.net> >    (reason: 554 imta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net comcast 211.29.132.10 > Comcast block fo)

I drove to Crockett, TX yesterday to look at a book someone published years ago on one branch of my family. The information I found broke through one of my walls and gave me a jump start on the next. Volunteers were very helpful at the Houston County Historical Commission. But the main "thank you" has to be to the person who did the research 50 years ago and persisted to publish a book. This person's work was well documented. She often listed her findings, for example a census, and her steps to decide which name in the list actually belonged in this tree. On the drive back to Houston I took a little side step to find a great grandfather's grave and took a picture of the headstone. Lot of progress for a rainy day. Gale Gorman Houston On Apr 17, 2012, at 3:54 PM, MScheffler wrote: Hazel, Gale and others, I think when many of us start out tracing our ancestors we contemplate writing a book in the future, and might even make a little money for our efforts. This is an expensive hobby -- likely very few us of will recoup our expenses, but then nothing in life worth pursuing is free of effort, expense, etc. Most of us will die having incurred lots of expense without completing our projects, but what do we have -- the JOY of the chase, perhaps some new friends, and lots of good memories when we do stumble upon some of the facts we thought we'd never find. We can feel proud of any well researched document we manage to put together whether in the form of a published book, family group sheets we send to a library or historical society, or a database we place online with WorldConnect, Ancestry, LDS, etc. My theory about sharing is that I would have nothing if others long before us had not collected records -- personal and government, had not some families kept diaries and old letters, photos, etc. for those of us down the road to "discover". I personally like to share my own efforts, and enjoy hearing from people who found my contributions helpful. Personally I will likely never publish the BUCK genealogy, I set out to update a number of years back. But I do keep all my BUCK families as well as other surnames of interest in my good sized database on Rootsweb's WorldConnect where hopefully other people may find my incomplete information, use if to enlarge their own databases, and hopefully give me additions where my information is lacking. A word to the wise -- if one does want to contribute a database online -- try to do it with a group that does not allow entire gedcoms of the file of another. I use WorldConnect where I can specifiy no downloads of my total database. People can make family group sheets, pedigree charts, etc. from the program and then retype the information they want to their own database. Such a process should make others think about what material they are using, and perhaps encourage them to check out my contributions to see if they find the information creditable. Yes, I like everyone else makes errors. Not only do some of the books I transcribe contain inaccurate information, but I have my own share of typos and information that I can misinterpret. Lastly, we all need to get over expecting others to correct information they took by gedcom from the databases of others. If they were concerned about accuracy, they would not POLLUTE their own databases with thousands of families/names they had made no effort to verify. Our local public library (genealogy department) will bind a genealogy manuscript and put it on their shelves if they deem it to be of good quality and an enhancement to their collection. For those of you ready with a manuscript to share, that cannot afford self-publishing, this might be an option. Margaret Scheffler

Better yet, put the location in the subject line (at the beginning). Drew Smith On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Carol Botteron <botteron@alum.mit.edu> wrote: > To everyone who posts about classes or other geographically limited > subjects:  Many readers appreciate it if you say WHERE early in your > message.  We should not have to read to the end of a long message > just to learn that your class is too far away to attend.  Thank you.

Hazel, Gale and others, I think when many of us start out tracing our ancestors we contemplate writing a book in the future, and might even make a little money for our efforts. This is an expensive hobby -- likely very few us of will recoup our expenses, but then nothing in life worth pursuing is free of effort, expense, etc. Most of us will die having incurred lots of expense without completing our projects, but what do we have -- the JOY of the chase, perhaps some new friends, and lots of good memories when we do stumble upon some of the facts we thought we'd never find. We can feel proud of any well researched document we manage to put together whether in the form of a published book, family group sheets we send to a library or historical society, or a database we place online with WorldConnect, Ancestry, LDS, etc. My theory about sharing is that I would have nothing if others long before us had not collected records -- personal and government, had not some families kept diaries and old letters, photos, etc. for those of us down the road to "discover". I personally like to share my own efforts, and enjoy hearing from people who found my contributions helpful. Personally I will likely never publish the BUCK genealogy, I set out to update a number of years back. But I do keep all my BUCK families as well as other surnames of interest in my good sized database on Rootsweb's WorldConnect where hopefully other people may find my incomplete information, use if to enlarge their own databases, and hopefully give me additions where my information is lacking. A word to the wise -- if one does want to contribute a database online -- try to do it with a group that does not allow entire gedcoms of the file of another. I use WorldConnect where I can specifiy no downloads of my total database. People can make family group sheets, pedigree charts, etc. from the program and then retype the information they want to their own database. Such a process should make others think about what material they are using, and perhaps encourage them to check out my contributions to see if they find the information creditable. Yes, I like everyone else makes errors. Not only do some of the books I transcribe contain inaccurate information, but I have my own share of typos and information that I can misinterpret. Lastly, we all need to get over expecting others to correct information they took by gedcom from the databases of others. If they were concerned about accuracy, they would not POLLUTE their own databases with thousands of families/names they had made no effort to verify. Our local public library (genealogy department) will bind a genealogy manuscript and put it on their shelves if they deem it to be of good quality and an enhancement to their collection. For those of you ready with a manuscript to share, that cannot afford self-publishing, this might be an option. Margaret Scheffler

You also have to be careful with last residence with the SSDI. My mother died in Oklahoma, but last residence was listed as Pennsylvania, because my brother in Pennsylvania was handling her money. Elizabeth C Gale Gorman wrote: > Joan, > > I could have written this! My sentiments to a tee! I'm not a long time genealogist and I've really had a difficult time understanding people claiming ownership to their ancestors or even the data they dig up. > > In my opinion there is not much value in genealogy if we don't share what we find. > > It would be great if those who adopt our information would add a credit line to tell where the info came from. That's not so I get any credit but it would allow someone to verify the data. A good example is SSDI. The dates are often wrong, not by much, but wrong just the same. I have no idea where SSDI gets their info but the case I cite is my own father died on October 20th and SSDI has the 22nd so someone could dispute my first hand knowledge because after all, they found it on the internet. > > Gale Gorman > Houston > > > > On Apr 14, 2012, at 5:24 AM, JLA wrote: > > "we can study ANYONE if [we] like > > > I guess it's a good thing that we can add people to a tree if we want. > Over the past 10 years I have compiled a family tree of a small Ohio > town. It didn't start out that way. I was documenting one pioneer > family but because it is a small town the descendants of the > pioneering family married into other families and before I knew it I > was building a family tree for an entire town. > > I find myself and my website being used as source material and that > doesn't bother me. I've work hard to document my data and being used > as a source is -- well -- flattering. I don't feel like my material > was 'stolen' if I felt that way I would not have put it World > Connect. > > If somebody wants to bastardize their family tree so be it. I know > that what I have is correct and that's all that concerns me. If I > find a error in another tree I will try and contract the owner and let > them know about it. If they don't change the error - I don't care. > I know that what I have is correct as far as I can document it. > > Happy hunting to all, > > Joan Asche > > On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 1:53 AM,<JYoung6180@aol.com> wrote: >> Um...Sally...they ARE his family (if he's a cousin as you state below). He >> can put people in his tree even if they are NOT his family if he wants to. >> Genealogical research is not limited to our ancestors...we can study ANYONE >> if like. I've research many a line I'm not personally related to. >> >> We don't OWN our ancestors and can't claim any "rights" to names, dates, >> and places in our family trees. They are facts and facts can't be owned by >> anyone. >> >> Joan > ===== > If you would prefer digest mode to mail mode, drop a note to roots-admin@rootsweb.com and ask for the digest... > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

To everyone who posts about classes or other geographically limited subjects: Many readers appreciate it if you say WHERE early in your message. We should not have to read to the end of a long message just to learn that your class is too far away to attend. Thank you.

Hi Lynn your email address won't work for me:- Hi Lynn I'm going to try your email address again. I thank you very much for taking the trouble to email me all the details of the Bohannon/ etc. I did contact the contributor Gayla and I told her that I had documentation on the said John/Rebecca Fuller that proves that Henry is not their son. So there is a lot of incorrect information on these ancestry trees. It's such a shame as people just seem to copy other peoples information with out ever really checking, but that's how it is I guess. The details about Mary Ann Roses parents seem to be correct though and the details on the 1850 Census seem to be correct as well but as for Henry's parents there is no proof, no parents listed on his death certificate either. I am now trying to retrace my emails to Gayla to double check though. Kindest regards and many thanks for trying to help. Dianna diamonddi57@optusnet.com.au

I did not buy these, so you will have to contact the shop and ask. around 100 or so photos, mostly 1940's-1960's, 1 much earlier, plus some school records, of Reggie Kotter of Northern California. names on some of the photos (not all are written on) Reggie Kotter, Harold, Dorothy, Lottie, Lilia, Jess, Earnie, Lucille, and Hoase? there is also a battered set of 11 tintypes and deguerotypes, only one has any identification; W. B. Kennedy. I can't see any familial resemblance between the photos, so it may just be someone's collection and not all from the same family, unlike the more recent ones. ir you are related to Reggie's family, contact me off list and I'll send you the shop's number. I have no financial interest, just would like the photos to go to a family member. Cornelia

Hi Lynn in Baltimore I've tried twice now to email you a message and both times it has come back to me so I will post it on the message board thanks Dianna Hi Lynn I must apologise for not replying to you and thanks for the information, I did as you suggested only yesterday and looked at the other people searching for Henry and Mary Ann, unfortunately they don't know anything at all. So it looks like it's up to me to find Henry's parents (hopefully) i'm searching in Tioga County now as there was a Samuel Fuller there in 1820. Many thanks for your time and once again sorry for the late reply. Kindest regards Dianna

Hi Everyone I'm trying to find information on Samuel FULLER who was on the 1820 Census in Tioga County, he does not appear on any other later census though. I don't have all the information from the 1820 Census for Samuel though (not that there is much I know). I thought he may possibly be our Henry's father, deceased perhaps by the 1830 Census as Henry's first son's name is Samuel, it's the closest I've come yet to finding a Dad for Henry. If anyone knows where to find any information on Samuel (and wife perhaps) that connects to Henry that would be fantastic. Kindest Regards Dianna

Learn the basics of starting your family history research with The Genealogy Center’s Beginners' classes during Summer 2012. Getting the Most from a Book Saturday, May 12, 10:00AM-11:00AM, Meeting Room A, Delia Bourne Sounds simple, doesn't it? But not all books are the same. Differing formats, different types of information, different indexing systems can actually make evaluating the information a little more difficult, especially for beginners. This class will discuss the basics of using books and how to retrieve and evaluate all possible information. How to Use the Genealogy Center: Basics Saturday, June 23, 10:00AM-11:00AM, Meeting Room A, Melissa Shimkus Have you taken a tour of The Genealogy Center and still feel confused? Do you wonder how all the details make sense to other people? Spend time with a staff member who will explain the catalog, microtext area, and how to use the facility. Note: This session is not a beginning genealogy class, but rather an explanation of the collection. Ancestry: The Beginner’s Way to Search Saturday, July 28, 10:00AM-11:00AM, Meeting Room A, Melissa Shimkus Are you new to genealogy? Have you tried Ancestry.com and felt confused? If so, attend this session to learn the basic steps to begin your genealogy search and navigate this database successfully. Beginner's Guide to Vital Records Saturday, August 25, 10:00AM-11:00AM, Meeting Room A, Delia Bourne Vital records are the Holy Grail of genealogical records, definitively providing a legal document that records a date of birth and parents, marriage date and place, or evidence of a death, perhaps providing parents or cause of death. However, birth and death records were not commonly recorded until the 20th Century, and even the availability of marriage records depend on the locale and culture. This class will explain what can be found in a vital record, and what other sources may be used when the official record is missing. For more information, please see the brochure at http://www.genealogycenter.org/Libraries/2012_Brochures/summer.sflb.ashx. Please register for either of these classes by calling 260-421-1225 or send an email to Genealogy@ACPL.Info. Thanks, Melissa Shimkus Genealogy Center Allen County Public Library 900 Library Plaza Fort Wayne, IN 46801 mshimkus@acpl.info 260-421-1225 ================= The views, opinions, and judgments expressed in this message are solely those of the author. The message contents have not been reviewed or approved by the Allen County Public Library.

Have you worked all the NY databases in familysearch.org? I found a mention of Samuel Fuller in the Babcock Genealogy the full text is online Babcock gen. by Steph. Babcock. http://archive.org/stream/babcockgenealogy00babc/babcockgenealogy00babc_djvu.txt But I don't think it matches your man/suspect <G> There is a mention of Henry in a Will but it is from 1899 http://www.dcnyhistory.org/willelizafuller.html If I knew Henrys birthdate it might be possible to do more <G> Eliz On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 9:37 PM, dianna charles <diamonddi57@optusnet.com.au> wrote: > Hi Everyone >     I'm trying to find information on Samuel FULLER who was on the 1820 > Census in Tioga County, he does not appear on any other later census though. > >      I don't have all the information from the 1820 Census for Samuel > though (not that there is much I know). > >      I thought he may possibly be our Henry's father, deceased perhaps by > the 1830 Census as Henry's first son's name is Samuel, it's the closest I've > come yet to finding a Dad for Henry.  If anyone knows where to find any > information on Samuel (and wife perhaps) that connects to Henry that would > be fantastic.  Kindest Regards Dianna > > ===== > If you would prefer digest mode to mail mode, drop a note to roots-admin@rootsweb.com and ask for the digest... > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Joan, A very well written explanation and conclusion. Emery -----Original Message----- From: roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of JYoung6180@aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 4:41 PM To: gale_gorman@me.com; Kith-n-Kin@cox.net Cc: kendallcaminiti@gmail.com; roots@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ROOTS-L] "piracy" or "ignorance" Absolutely, Gale, but this burden falls on the FINDER--not the submitter of the tree being "used." Trees you find on the Internet whether sourced or not are a starting point and not and end all and be all for your research. But that is also true for books. When I was doing a one name study many years ago I was contacted by a researcher who only had a tombstone inscription for his ancestor in a county in Western PA. Based upon the name and dates I tried to locate the person in my records and found a suspiciously close baptismal record in a book of early PA Births for Berks County in Eastern PA. But the records didn't match EXACTLY...so I suggested the researcher obtain the original baptismal record for the church in Berks County. She did and copied several of the handwritten pages from the records for me to study. When I examined the pages carefully I realized that the PA Birth book transcription/abstract of the record was incorrect --- although I could easily see how (without all the information I had to go on) the transcriber/author arrived at his conclusions. The minister had written "Jani" as the abbreviation for January and "Juni" as an abbreviation for June. On every page the two month abbreviations looked just about identical. The proof that the birth date he'd listed in the book as June was incorrect is the fact that the baptism for the child had taken place in April. Although it would have been possible for the baptism to have taken place the FOLLOWING April (not the same year as the birth) a close examination of all the records on the copied pages showed that the minister was VERY consistent in showing the YEAR with the date of baptism but ONLY if the year of birth and baptism differed. He NEVER included the YEAR if the birth and baptism took place in the SAME year. The record in question had no year listed. Therefore, the birth date on the baptism when interpreted as January (instead of June as listed in the birth book) agreed to the very day with the tombstone the researcher had found in Western PA proving conclusively that we'd found the connection to her ancestor's birth and his parents--and ancestors on back to the immigrant ancestor. Not only did our "find" prove an error in interpretation for this birth/baptism but also for several others on the copied pages where the baptism and birth took place in the same year and the months June and January included the misleading abbreviations. When I contacted the author about this -- he agreed with my conclusions and was very gracious -- and reminded me that books like his birth books were not intended to be an END in our research...they are a starting point and it is completely intended that researchers follow through as we did and obtain the original record to examine -- especially if there is any doubt in the info contained in the books. The important point to take away from this is that WE (the finders of any information online, in books, or in ANY record) are responsible for our conclusions and our examination of the evidence. Joan In a message dated 4/15/2012 4:15:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gale_gorman@me.com writes: I skipped church, again, but this was a good sermon. People who find a tree on the internet may be doing their version of "research" so they may feel righteous about it. I thoroughly agree the source needs to be re-visited. ===== If you would prefer digest mode to mail mode, drop a note to roots-admin@rootsweb.com and ask for the digest... ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello lists. I am searching for information on Bridget MOONEY, born circa 1834, in Ireland. The first place she is spotted is possibly in Lake County, Illinois, marrying a George MILLER in 1857 at Immaculate Conception Catholic Church. I am not sure if this is really her. In 1860, George and Bridget are found in Boston MA with son George. the birthplaces are listed as Kerry for George and Fermanagh for Bridget. In 1864, Bridget gave birth to my GGGrandfather, John Lewis Miller in Boston. I have researched marriage records in Boston and found no George Miller and Bridget Mooney. I did find the one in Illinois, and there are a large contingent of MOONEYs in Lake County and neighboring Cook County. I know they were in Boston later because that is where John MIller was born. The family is not found anywhere in the 1870 census. in 1880, they are in St. Louis. I am trying to do collateral research on the MOONEY family in Lake and Cook County IL to see if they are related to my Bridget. I have found that they may have been from County Monaghan, which shares a border with Fermanagh. I am having a hard time figuring why Bridget would be in Illinois in 1857, MA in 1860, missing in 1870, then St. Louis in 1880. Does anyone have info on these MOONEYS?

Absolutely, Gale, but this burden falls on the FINDER--not the submitter of the tree being "used." Trees you find on the Internet whether sourced or not are a starting point and not and end all and be all for your research. But that is also true for books. When I was doing a one name study many years ago I was contacted by a researcher who only had a tombstone inscription for his ancestor in a county in Western PA. Based upon the name and dates I tried to locate the person in my records and found a suspiciously close baptismal record in a book of early PA Births for Berks County in Eastern PA. But the records didn't match EXACTLY...so I suggested the researcher obtain the original baptismal record for the church in Berks County. She did and copied several of the handwritten pages from the records for me to study. When I examined the pages carefully I realized that the PA Birth book transcription/abstract of the record was incorrect --- although I could easily see how (without all the information I had to go on) the transcriber/author arrived at his conclusions. The minister had written "Jani" as the abbreviation for January and "Juni" as an abbreviation for June. On every page the two month abbreviations looked just about identical. The proof that the birth date he'd listed in the book as June was incorrect is the fact that the baptism for the child had taken place in April. Although it would have been possible for the baptism to have taken place the FOLLOWING April (not the same year as the birth) a close examination of all the records on the copied pages showed that the minister was VERY consistent in showing the YEAR with the date of baptism but ONLY if the year of birth and baptism differed. He NEVER included the YEAR if the birth and baptism took place in the SAME year. The record in question had no year listed. Therefore, the birth date on the baptism when interpreted as January (instead of June as listed in the birth book) agreed to the very day with the tombstone the researcher had found in Western PA proving conclusively that we'd found the connection to her ancestor's birth and his parents--and ancestors on back to the immigrant ancestor. Not only did our "find" prove an error in interpretation for this birth/baptism but also for several others on the copied pages where the baptism and birth took place in the same year and the months June and January included the misleading abbreviations. When I contacted the author about this -- he agreed with my conclusions and was very gracious -- and reminded me that books like his birth books were not intended to be an END in our research...they are a starting point and it is completely intended that researchers follow through as we did and obtain the original record to examine -- especially if there is any doubt in the info contained in the books. The important point to take away from this is that WE (the finders of any information online, in books, or in ANY record) are responsible for our conclusions and our examination of the evidence. Joan In a message dated 4/15/2012 4:15:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gale_gorman@me.com writes: I skipped church, again, but this was a good sermon. People who find a tree on the internet may be doing their version of "research" so they may feel righteous about it. I thoroughly agree the source needs to be re-visited.

On Apr 15, 2012, at 2:25 PM, Kith-n-Kin wrote: Kendall > From my experience in over forty years of researching, both for genealogy and other pursuits, I have found an incredible ignorance of the law, good research practice, and, frankly, "ownership ethics." I'd never admit it in public, but I "may" have slipped up a time or two myself. . . The law is pretty simple -- there are copyright laws, they can be researched, and abided by. Asking permission to quote is not that hard, either. You'd be amazed how many times I went head-to-head with colleagues who thought it was ok to print out thirty copies of an entire workbook for a class because "we are government employees and the copyright laws do not apply to us." WHA???? Or, "it came from xxx university and because they get tax money, they cannot copyright it." Wow. Or, the music director who doesn't have enough copies/money to supply the very large choir and who feels that as a "non-profit" the laws don't count. Whew??? BUT, that aside, copyright laws ONLY apply to works of the mind -- music, poetry, essays, etc. Copyright laws do not apply to "facts" or "information." There is no protection for "my hard work, sweat, expense, time. . . ." in gathering such facts or information from whatever source -- Aunt Mabel, the county courthouse, the census . .. So, that's the short and not very sweet version of the legal issues. In real life, of course, it's more complicated, but should suffice for our purposes here. The vast amount of our researching (read Sweat) is not protected by anyone. NOW, the question become "are people 'claiming' this research product as 'theirs?'" My experience would lead me to say "probably not." In many cases, I suspect the offender does not even know where or when s/he got the information. The person who is offending may be the fifth person in a line between the original compiler of the information and the product you see. Note how many "sources" include someone else's gedcom or other file. They are lifting wholesale, not through malice, but through ignorance of the professional, ethical, method of doing things. In a few cases where I have personally talked to an offender about this sort of thing the response was basically...oh, I didn't know there was a problem there -- if they didn't want to share why did they (a) compile the book (b) put up the tree on the web (c) leave that information in the historical society. . . . A much bigger problem for me is not who has sweat equity in the work, but how well the information is evaluated and documented. Even the statement "Pat told me..." gives the next user a better opportunity to evaluate what I said, and if I'm still around, come ask me where I got the information. Better still would be: "Pat told me. . . and she had gotten the information from. . . ." What is less ok is bypassing the "first informant" and going straight to "...the information (came) from..." Problem there is that without identifying the compiler/indexer (me) the next person in line has no way to "trust" the information. Regardless of that, any researcher worth his/her salt will re-visit the research, and the "original" source is critical. And, of course "I" am only the original source on when I was married, when my children were born, and such like that. Finally -- lazy? -- perhaps, I think some really do want to spend a minimal amount of time for maximum results. They probably run their lives that way. "Dumb?" I'd prefer "ignorant." No one has taught them about this. "Taking credit?" -- probably not usually. How often do any of these trees indicate that the poster "takes credit" for the research? Unfortunately, they are generally silent on all such claims. Of course there are those who plagiarized their way through school, hired people to take the SAT (or whatever the equivalent was). Like the poor, I guess unethical people will always be with us. But, the vast majority of people posting trees are, in my opinion, simply unknowing and unthinking. "Unknowing" we can fix. "Unthinking" is a bit harder. Wow -- two sermons today. One at church, and now here I am, delivering another. Pat In Tucosn -----------snip---------- I skipped church, again, but this was a good sermon. People who find a tree on the internet may be doing their version of "research" so they may feel righteous about it. I thoroughly agree the source needs to be re-visited. Quite a few years ago I saw and heard a sermon on TV from a huge church in Alabama. He quoted some figures I wanted to use so I called him to ask about his source. I was really surprised when he said, "Aw, I just pulled some numbers out of the air." I laughed and told him I appreciated his honesty or candor but I wasn't going to use that. Gale Gorman Houston