At 08:44 PM 01-31-1998 -0800, you wrote: >Let me offer something I've learned about Dutch naming patterns (I have a >lot of recent Dutch immigrants on my father's side, and have researched >Dutch records in Holland from the 1870's back to the mid 1600's): > >Usually (but NOT always) the first son is named for the paternal >grandfather >the second son is named for the maternal grandfather >the third son is named for the father >the first daughter is named for the paternal grandmother >the second daughter is named for the maternal grandmother >the third daughter is named for the mother. > >Of course, there were instances when these "traditions" were not followed. >As an example, say a man named Jan Hendriks vanAken (son of a Hendrik >Pieterse vanAken) names his first son. He could name him Hendrik Janse >vanAken (taking the patronymic using his first name) or he could give him >the FULL patronymic name of the paternal grandfather (in this case, Henrik >Pieterse vanAken). I think this happened in our ROLL family. John ROLL >(the one who moved to NJ with wife, Elizabeth), is often called Jan >Mangelse ROLL. Well, his father was Pieter Janse ROLL, so one would think >that the son would be Jan Pieterse ROLL, but he was named for the >grandfather, using the grandfather's FULL patronymic - Jan MANGELSE. Does >that make sense? Sometimes when I look at this stuff, it doesn't make >sense to me, but after a while I finally kinda figured it out. The Dutch >patronymic naming system is actually more confusing to me than my Norwegian >ancestors! > >Because of the evidence that comes to life in the Deed mentioning Tryntje, >I am extremely convinced that Volkie Janse must have been a confusion in >interpreting the document containing her name. The evidence strongly >points to her name being Tryntje Pieterse (possibly vanWoggelum) .... >Pieter Adriaense's sons used vanWoggelum, but they also used that long >"nickname" Schomegelack (or however it was spelled) and they used Pieterse. > >I am also curious as to whether anyone has followed up on a reference I saw >saying that Jan Mangelse might have been from Haaren or Purmerend in Noord >Holland (I've never researched that provice in the Netherlands, and am >unfamiliar with their records). Most Dutch Reformed records in the >Netherlands only seem to date back to the mid to late 1600's which is >probably a bit too late for our immigrant Jan Mangelse, but some of his >siblings and their families could be mentioned in the records. > >Michael VanBaaren >[email protected] >or [email protected] > Dear Michael, I have found two secondary sources that say Jan Mangels' native city was Utrecht, Utrecht, Netherland. 1. Wilson, Richard Timbrook. "Genealogy of the Roll Family." p 2. "It has always been the tradition among the descendants of John Roll of Elizabethtown, N.J., that their progenitor in this country was one Johannes Mangel, that he came from Holland and settled in the northern part of New York State and that one of his ancestors was a burgomaster in his native city in the Province of Utrecht..." 2. Gahagan, Hannah M. "Four Families, Cory, Culbertson, Smith, Gahagan." p 58. "The name Roll was an evolution from the original Dutch, which appears to have been Mangelse, or Mangle, or Mongle Roll, or Mongeroll. Jan Mongeroll was born in Holland and was at one time Burgomaster [sic] of his native city, Utrecht." It is unlikely that Jan was a burgomaster, due to his young age. Therefore, the burgomaster may have been Jan's father or grandfather. Jan may have emigrated from the port of Hoorn, North Holland, Netherland, since this was one of the major embarcation points. Please let me know if you find additional sources. Sincerely, William Henry Roll [email protected] _________________________________________________________________ William Henry Roll Blythe, California [email protected] The Roll Family Genealogy Windmill http://members.aol.com/whroll "A thousand candles have burned themselves out; yet I read on."