Hello, Kathy, & All, Kathy, Nancy, & Martha, & All, Thanks for your input on our immigrant ancestors. I am trying to understand what you sent, Kathy, from your research, and then to get input here from others. So here goes. Kathy says she retrieved the info from books at the Largo Library. (Kathy referenced book titles in a subsequent e-mail to me below.) It appears you are saying from your references that Adriaen PIETERSE from Alkmaar, Holland, mar Annetie "Anna" PIETERS from Holstein, Germany. This information appears to be in agreement with others. Right, everyone? And then you state "came to America with three children." Has anyone else found this in their research? ********************************************** Next, Kathy, you indicate that Annetie/Annetje/Anna (PIETERS) PIETERSE married #2 Jacques Kirme KAM and #3 Bareut Janse BALELE. These appear to be the same men on Michael VanBAAREN's as Barent Jansz BAL & Jacques KINNEKOM. If so, what would be the assumed correct spelling for their names? Since your the "Dutch guy" here Michael, it appears we should use your spelling for accuracy. Correct? Can you give us a little insight here, Michael? Would appreciate any comments from others, as I/we try to get everyone's perspective and research together. Audrey p. s. I will piece-meal questions back & forth on information from so that others can give some feedback, too. Hope this is helpful in solving the riddle here. ---------- From: ROBERT SCHUEREN <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Books Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 11:12 PM Well let's see I was in the Genealogy section and I was just about looking in every book that had anything to do with New York , Schenectady, Albany and The Dutch. Going back through my Research log I found some of the pages of books that I made copies of, they are Genealogies of the First Settlers of Schenectady pages 132 under OTTEN,page 112 under MAKELYK, page 113 under MANGELSE,page 289 under WEMPLE, page 159 under SCHERMERHOOREN under REYER to page 165. In Genealogies of the First Settlers of Albany page 104 under SOEGEMAKELYK, page 78 under MANGELSE. Basically I went to the index of every book I thought would help and looked for the names I knew. I hope some of this helps you. Kathy [email protected]

Nancy what is meant here by TAG? Also, Nancy what is the significance of this resource. Is the land mentioned in here also? "Genealogy of the Roll Family Ancestry and descendants of John Roll of Elizabethtown Township Essex County New Jersey and Allied families of Brotherton-Burrows-Cory-Crane-Earl-Norris-Schooley-Smith-Vreeland-Wade-Wilso n and Woolley" by Richard Timbrook Wilson. Ridgewood, bergen County, New Jersey 1921. With Additions by Richard John Franz 3rd. Pensacola, Escambia County, Florida. Starting in 1957, and Including Doland and Franz Families. Compiled by Marquerite S. Roll. 1972. P 29 & 30. And...would this be the same land spoken about in Edwin D. ROLL's history mentioned below? Audrey -------------------------------------------------------------- From: NANCY N LOHBRUNNER <[email protected]> > Subject: [ROLL-L] VOLKIE OR TRYNTJE Friday, January 30, 1998 7:10 PM > A few weeks ago I posted a copy from the land records of property > transferred from Jan Mangels and wife 'Tryntje' to their son Pieter. This > came from "New York geno. and Biog. Records, Vol. XXXVI, p 133 and 322. TAG > is very good, but only as good as the person who submitted the information. > Just like John Littell's book, it is very good, but contains errors. My > money goes with the deed and Tryntje. I will add the land record to this. > This land record probably was missed by earlier researchers and also by the > heirs of Jan Mangels who tried to sue NY state for the value of the > property. Only the descendants of Pieter would have had any claim to it. > > Volkie Janse or Tryntje Pieters, wife of Jan Mangelse > In most of the documentation for Jan Mangelse, his wife is not mentioned by > name. Edwin D. Roll, in his "The Roll Family, One Branch", Oct 1982 has, > "1698/9. Jan and Tryntje Mangelse sold a parcel of their land at > Canastogione to their son Pieter for L50. A copy of the deed of sale is on > file; also a description of the property involved." > I could not find a copy of the deed till recently. I knew some researchers had Volkie Janse as > Jan's wife, but with the Dutch naming system Volkie would have been the > daughter of Jan, not Pieter. I added Pieters/Pieterse onto Tryntje's name, > as she was the daughter of Pieter. (Dutch naming system) Just because her > brothers used Van Woggelum and several other aliases, we cannot assume she > was also known by them, but we do know Jan Mangelse married the daughter of > Pieter Adriaensen Van Woggelum. I still think an earlier researcher misread > the contract of sale between Claes Jansen van Bockhoven and Jan Mangelse of > land at Niskayuna in which it is written, "seller or his wife named Volckie > Jans". The problem with this is that Jan was the buyer, Claes was the > seller. I have already sent a copy of this out to the group, if there are > any new subscribers and would like a copy, let me know. > Anyway, below is a copy of a copy of the sale of land between Jan Mangelse, > his wife, Tryntje and their son, Pieter. Please let me know what you think. > New York Geno. And Biog. Records, Vol. XXXVI. P 133 and p 322 > "Richmond County, Staten Island. The following deed on sale was recorded for > Peter Mangelse, the 3rd day of February 1698/9. Joseph Egbert, Clk." > "To all Christian People to whom thes presents shall come: John Mangilson > of staten Island of the County of Richmond & Trynitje his wife-Sendeth > Greetings in our Lord God Everlasting. Now know yee that for the sum of > Fifty-pounds currant moneys to them in hand paid by Peter Mangilson at or > before the signing & ensealing of these presents the receipt whereof the > said John Mangilson and Trynitje his wife both hereby acknowledge themselves > therewith fully satisfied contented and paid and of every part and parcell > thereof, and do hereby Exonorate and discharge the sd Peter Mangilson his > heirs, Exs, administrators & assigns has bargoned, sold assignes & sett over > and by these presents doe bargon sell assigne and sett over unto the sd > Peter Mangilson his heirs & assigns for ever a certain tract or parcell of > land lying and being at Sagoddiochquissatt which by deed of gift has been > granted unto the said John Mangilson by the Maqhase Indians in the year of > 1681/2, the said land running from the marked tree whereon of name of the sd > John Mangelson stands and also the mark of the Maqhase Indians unto the > creek that lyeth west ward the line of the sd land running into the woods > diveth North lys on a straight line together with all houses, barnes, > stables, orchards, fencings, feedings, pastures, or any other premises > whatsover, to have and to hold the sd land and premeses with their and every > of their appertunances. To the only sole and proper use behalf and benefit > of him, the said Peter Mangelson his heirs & assigns foreever by these > presents and the said John Mangelson and Trijntje his wife for themselves > their heirs, Exec. Adm. Doth covenant & agree to and with the sd Peter > Mangilson his heirs Exec. Adm. And assigns that hee the said John Mangilson > at the time of ensealing and delivery of these presents hath good right full > power and absolute authority to grant bargon sell and convey the afore > mention premses with their and every of their appertunances freed and > cleared of & from all manner of and forever other gifts, grants, bargons, > soles, leases, toyntunes, dawers or any other incumbrances whatsoever and > that the said Peter Mangilson his heirs, Exec. Administ. & assigns shall and > may lawfully & peaceabley, and quietly have hold use occupy posses and enjoy > the sd land and premises without the lawfull lett suit trouble interuption > or molestation of him the said John Mangilson or either of them and that hee > the said John Mangilse his heirs, Exec. Adminst. Shall warrant and forever > will defend the said land and premises against any person or persons laying, > claiming any estate right, title of in or to the same. In witness whereof > the said John Mangilson and Tryntje his wife have hereunto Sett their hands > and seals this second day of February in the tenth year of our Souvenign > Lord Willim the third by the grace of God King of Eng. Scotland, France & > Ireland, Defender of the Faith an lue 10-169/9 > Signed Sealed and Delivered John Mangilson > in the presence of > Tho. Coone Tryntje Mangilse > Witness > Conelis + Eckenson" > "Genealogy of the Roll Family Ancestry and descendants of John Roll of > Elizabethtown Township Essex County New Jersey and Allied families of > Brotherton-Burrows-Cory-Crane-Earl-Norris-Schooley-Smith-Vreeland-Wade-Wilso > n and Woolley" by Richard Timbrook Wilson. Ridgewood, bergen County, New > Jersey 1921. With Additions by Richard John Franz 3rd. Pensacola, Escambia > County, Florida. Starting in 1957, and Including Doland and Franz Families. > Compiled by Marquerite S. Roll. 1972. P 29 & 30. > I will not run a spell check on the above for obvious reasons, if you find > something that does not make sense, let me know and I will take a look at > the original. > Nancy > [email protected] > [email protected] > >

At 08:53 PM 01-31-1998 -0800, you wrote: >I got my information on the vanWoggelum line from TAG (The American >Genealogist) -- I'll have to look through my files to cite the exact issue. > I found an article on "The Easy-Going VanWoggelums" which contained most >of the facts I gathered on the family, in addition to what I received from >Nancy (which agreed almost exactly with what I had). > >I will admit on the names, I do "standardize" them to the true Dutch >language fashion. In Dutch, the word of "son" is "zoon", so TECHNICALLY, >Pieter Adriaansz (as I have him listed) is: > >Pieter, Adriaans zoon (Adriaan's son) >The Dutch abbreviate that to Adriaansz, much the same was as the >Norwegians, Danes & Swedes abbreviate Olsdatter (Norwegian/Danish) and >Olsdotter (Swedish) to "Olsdr." ==snip== Dear Michael, Thanks for the Dutch language lesson. It's things like this that I really find a help in my work. Thank you. Sincerely, William Henry Roll [email protected] _________________________________________________________________ William Henry Roll Blythe, California [email protected] The Roll Family Genealogy Windmill http://members.aol.com/whroll "A thousand candles have burned themselves out; yet I read on."

At 08:44 PM 01-31-1998 -0800, you wrote: >Let me offer something I've learned about Dutch naming patterns (I have a >lot of recent Dutch immigrants on my father's side, and have researched >Dutch records in Holland from the 1870's back to the mid 1600's): > >Usually (but NOT always) the first son is named for the paternal >grandfather >the second son is named for the maternal grandfather >the third son is named for the father >the first daughter is named for the paternal grandmother >the second daughter is named for the maternal grandmother >the third daughter is named for the mother. > >Of course, there were instances when these "traditions" were not followed. >As an example, say a man named Jan Hendriks vanAken (son of a Hendrik >Pieterse vanAken) names his first son. He could name him Hendrik Janse >vanAken (taking the patronymic using his first name) or he could give him >the FULL patronymic name of the paternal grandfather (in this case, Henrik >Pieterse vanAken). I think this happened in our ROLL family. John ROLL >(the one who moved to NJ with wife, Elizabeth), is often called Jan >Mangelse ROLL. Well, his father was Pieter Janse ROLL, so one would think >that the son would be Jan Pieterse ROLL, but he was named for the >grandfather, using the grandfather's FULL patronymic - Jan MANGELSE. Does >that make sense? Sometimes when I look at this stuff, it doesn't make >sense to me, but after a while I finally kinda figured it out. The Dutch >patronymic naming system is actually more confusing to me than my Norwegian >ancestors! > >Because of the evidence that comes to life in the Deed mentioning Tryntje, >I am extremely convinced that Volkie Janse must have been a confusion in >interpreting the document containing her name. The evidence strongly >points to her name being Tryntje Pieterse (possibly vanWoggelum) .... >Pieter Adriaense's sons used vanWoggelum, but they also used that long >"nickname" Schomegelack (or however it was spelled) and they used Pieterse. > >I am also curious as to whether anyone has followed up on a reference I saw >saying that Jan Mangelse might have been from Haaren or Purmerend in Noord >Holland (I've never researched that provice in the Netherlands, and am >unfamiliar with their records). Most Dutch Reformed records in the >Netherlands only seem to date back to the mid to late 1600's which is >probably a bit too late for our immigrant Jan Mangelse, but some of his >siblings and their families could be mentioned in the records. > >Michael VanBaaren >[email protected] >or [email protected] > Dear Michael, I have found two secondary sources that say Jan Mangels' native city was Utrecht, Utrecht, Netherland. 1. Wilson, Richard Timbrook. "Genealogy of the Roll Family." p 2. "It has always been the tradition among the descendants of John Roll of Elizabethtown, N.J., that their progenitor in this country was one Johannes Mangel, that he came from Holland and settled in the northern part of New York State and that one of his ancestors was a burgomaster in his native city in the Province of Utrecht..." 2. Gahagan, Hannah M. "Four Families, Cory, Culbertson, Smith, Gahagan." p 58. "The name Roll was an evolution from the original Dutch, which appears to have been Mangelse, or Mangle, or Mongle Roll, or Mongeroll. Jan Mongeroll was born in Holland and was at one time Burgomaster [sic] of his native city, Utrecht." It is unlikely that Jan was a burgomaster, due to his young age. Therefore, the burgomaster may have been Jan's father or grandfather. Jan may have emigrated from the port of Hoorn, North Holland, Netherland, since this was one of the major embarcation points. Please let me know if you find additional sources. Sincerely, William Henry Roll [email protected] _________________________________________________________________ William Henry Roll Blythe, California [email protected] The Roll Family Genealogy Windmill http://members.aol.com/whroll "A thousand candles have burned themselves out; yet I read on."

Okay, now we have Nancy's information concerning the deed. A deed is a fairly reliable piece of data to discern information from, isn't it? Wow, and to see Tryntje's name mentioned several times within the deed, makes it almost striking evidence that Jan Mangelse was married to Tryntje. It would be interesting to see if anyone has done reseach on Claes Jansen van BOCKHOVEN to see if his wife's name was Volkie Janse. That might be something for me to look into. Any thoughts on this? Could someone have misunderstood that deed's phrasing? A question to be answered!!! Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Nancy, & the deed. Audrey

Now, Kathy & All, Kathy, if I'm following your e-mail correctly, it indicates the children of Adriaen & Annetie/Annetje to be the following from your research: 1. Pieter Adriaenson b 1610 in Von Woggelum, Holland and died without probate. 2. Jan Pieterse (known as Jacob Adriense Von Utrecht & Jan Pieterse Van Utrecht) mar 10 Feb 1664 to Unknown. (This one gets me if I am understanding the Dutch pattern of naming correctly. How could a person be son of both Adriaen & Pieter? How could a person be both Jan & Jacob? Isn't Jan the name for John? Any explanations or comments out there? Are these the same person or two different persons? 3. Catharina ? Anyone know anything about Catharina that can help? ****************************************** Now, Kathy, under Catharina ? you have: "1a. Jan Mackelick 1b. Pieter 1c. Volkie Janse ADRIAENSEN mar 25 Aug 1661 to Jan Mangelse I would understand from this that these are the possible children of Adriaen PIETERSE & Annetie/Annetje. According to this reference in your search Volkie would be the wife of Jan Mangelse rather than Tryntje. Wouldn't one interpret Volkie as Volkie (daughter of) Jan ADRIAENSEN? We need to get a chat group going for a discussion as complicated as this one...so guess this chat e-mail. Thanks everyone for your input. Audrey

A few weeks ago I posted a copy from the land records of property transferred from Jan Mangels and wife 'Tryntje' to their son Pieter. This came from "New York geno. and Biog. Records, Vol. XXXVI, p 133 and 322. TAG is very good, but only as good as the person who submitted the information. Just like John Littell's book, it is very good, but contains errors. My money goes with the deed and Tryntje. I will add the land record to this. This land record probably was missed by earlier researchers and also by the heirs of Jan Mangels who tried to sue NY state for the value of the property. Only the descendants of Pieter would have had any claim to it. Volkie Janse or Tryntje Pieters, wife of Jan Mangelse In most of the documentation for Jan Mangelse, his wife is not mentioned by name. Edwin D. Roll, in his "The Roll Family, One Branch", Oct 1982 has, "1698/9. Jan and Tryntje Mangelse sold a parcel of their land at Canastogione to their son Pieter for L50. A copy of the deed of sale is on file; also a description of the property involved." I could not find a copy of the deed till recently. I knew some researchers had Volkie Janse as Jan's wife, but with the Dutch naming system Volkie would have been the daughter of Jan, not Pieter. I added Pieters/Pieterse onto Tryntje's name, as she was the daughter of Pieter. (Dutch naming system) Just because her brothers used Van Woggelum and several other aliases, we cannot assume she was also known by them, but we do know Jan Mangelse married the daughter of Pieter Adriaensen Van Woggelum. I still think an earlier researcher misread the contract of sale between Claes Jansen van Bockhoven and Jan Mangelse of land at Niskayuna in which it is written, "seller or his wife named Volckie Jans". The problem with this is that Jan was the buyer, Claes was the seller. I have already sent a copy of this out to the group, if there are any new subscribers and would like a copy, let me know. Anyway, below is a copy of a copy of the sale of land between Jan Mangelse, his wife, Tryntje and their son, Pieter. Please let me know what you think. New York Geno. And Biog. Records, Vol. XXXVI. P 133 and p 322 "Richmond County, Staten Island. The following deed on sale was recorded for Peter Mangelse, the 3rd day of February 1698/9. Joseph Egbert, Clk." "To all Christian People to whom thes presents shall come: John Mangilson of staten Island of the County of Richmond & Trynitje his wife-Sendeth Greetings in our Lord God Everlasting. Now know yee that for the sum of Fifty-pounds currant moneys to them in hand paid by Peter Mangilson at or before the signing & ensealing of these presents the receipt whereof the said John Mangilson and Trynitje his wife both hereby acknowledge themselves therewith fully satisfied contented and paid and of every part and parcell thereof, and do hereby Exonorate and discharge the sd Peter Mangilson his heirs, Exs, administrators & assigns has bargoned, sold assignes & sett over and by these presents doe bargon sell assigne and sett over unto the sd Peter Mangilson his heirs & assigns for ever a certain tract or parcell of land lying and being at Sagoddiochquissatt which by deed of gift has been granted unto the said John Mangilson by the Maqhase Indians in the year of 1681/2, the said land running from the marked tree whereon of name of the sd John Mangelson stands and also the mark of the Maqhase Indians unto the creek that lyeth west ward the line of the sd land running into the woods diveth North lys on a straight line together with all houses, barnes, stables, orchards, fencings, feedings, pastures, or any other premises whatsover, to have and to hold the sd land and premeses with their and every of their appertunances. To the only sole and proper use behalf and benefit of him, the said Peter Mangelson his heirs & assigns foreever by these presents and the said John Mangelson and Trijntje his wife for themselves their heirs, Exec. Adm. Doth covenant & agree to and with the sd Peter Mangilson his heirs Exec. Adm. And assigns that hee the said John Mangilson at the time of ensealing and delivery of these presents hath good right full power and absolute authority to grant bargon sell and convey the afore mention premses with their and every of their appertunances freed and cleared of & from all manner of and forever other gifts, grants, bargons, soles, leases, toyntunes, dawers or any other incumbrances whatsoever and that the said Peter Mangilson his heirs, Exec. Administ. & assigns shall and may lawfully & peaceabley, and quietly have hold use occupy posses and enjoy the sd land and premises without the lawfull lett suit trouble interuption or molestation of him the said John Mangilson or either of them and that hee the said John Mangilse his heirs, Exec. Adminst. Shall warrant and forever will defend the said land and premises against any person or persons laying, claiming any estate right, title of in or to the same. In witness whereof the said John Mangilson and Tryntje his wife have hereunto Sett their hands and seals this second day of February in the tenth year of our Souvenign Lord Willim the third by the grace of God King of Eng. Scotland, France & Ireland, Defender of the Faith an lue 10-169/9 Signed Sealed and Delivered John Mangilson in the presence of Tho. Coone Tryntje Mangilse Witness Conelis + Eckenson" "Genealogy of the Roll Family Ancestry and descendants of John Roll of Elizabethtown Township Essex County New Jersey and Allied families of Brotherton-Burrows-Cory-Crane-Earl-Norris-Schooley-Smith-Vreeland-Wade-Wilso n and Woolley" by Richard Timbrook Wilson. Ridgewood, bergen County, New Jersey 1921. With Additions by Richard John Franz 3rd. Pensacola, Escambia County, Florida. Starting in 1957, and Including Doland and Franz Families. Compiled by Marquerite S. Roll. 1972. P 29 & 30. I will not run a spell check on the above for obvious reasons, if you find something that does not make sense, let me know and I will take a look at the original. Nancy [email protected] [email protected]

I have not, that I remember, seen a record that has the name of Jan Mangelese wife on it. This research was done by Isaac Clifford Roll & Roland H. Roll. They had the name of Jan Mangelese and Volkie Janse Adriaensen. From there, we did the research on the children and the Baptism Records and the Marriages. I have seen all those and I know, for a fact that they are true according to records. These pages that Audrey picked up for me in Fort Wayne Library, THE AMERICAN GENEALOGIST, Vol. 32, P. 206 lists: Daughter, name unknown, Jan Mangelson on 25 August 1661 acknowledged in court that he owed to his father-in-law, Pieter Adriaenson. I don't know if this was what Isaac Clifford Roll was referring to or just that it proved Jan Mangelese was a son-in-law of Pieter Adriaensen. In all this research, we must have come across something that had the name on it and I can say for a fact, that I have never come across any paper that shows her name as anything else. There is a marriage record for her Grandmother, Anneke Pieters to Barent Janse Bal on 22 November 1652, at the Manhattan Dutch Church. This was her 3rd marriage. The Reformed Dutch Church of N.Y.C. had a fire and it burned part of their records but I can't remember what year. I also have a record of the seating in the church that Audrey offered some time ago. I would like a copy. I wouldn't even know where to look for mine if it is even the same. I've been away from Genealogy for a few years and all my things have been put away for awhile, except for all the notebooks. I can say that in Isaac Clifford Roll's Research, I have never known him to record anything unless he saw the proof. I don't think the man ever made an assumption. He was a family researcher, as I am, and he did take the records that people sent him but when he did research himself, it was documented. This map, "PATENT OF CANASTAGAGIONE" and the deeds on the INDIAN LAND, I will try to send to everyone on the list this weekend. Since I can't send it through ROLL-L, I will send it to each of you who have posted on the list. Any new people on the list who wants it will have to let me know or can get it from someone else on the list already. Martha

I have been comparing some of the information on homepages and what Martha has shared. First of all there appears to be the big question as to whom the wife of Jan MANGELSE/MANGLESE is. Is she Tryntje Pieterse Van WOGGELUM as some of you believe or is she Volkie Janse ADRIAENSEN/VAN WOGGELUM as others believe? Both are given in the different records as the daughter(s) of Pieter Andriaense Van WOGGELUM & Indian Princess. What say ye? Would appreciate a little discussion on this matter. Martha has given a couple resources for her Volkie, but I have not seen any support for Tryntje. Can anyone help me here? Thanks. Have a good weekend. Audrey

Cont. from Page II. IV. JOHANNES, 3rd child of MANGEL JANSEN & ANNETJE HENDRIEX (Volcx) ROLL. JOHANNES ROLL M. 03/17/ 1719 AALTJE BAS Bap. 08/20/1699 b. d. THEIR CHILDREN 1. ANNATJE Bap. 10/25/1719 P. 1. 2. JOHANNES Bap. 04/07/1734 d. 01/17/1815 Married: Mary Nevis N.Y.G.B. - Vol. 22 lists: Johannes - Bap. 04/07/1734 and Parents were: Johannes Roll, wife Aaltje Bas. Annatje - daughter of Johannes & Aaltje Bas - Bap. 10/25/1719.

Cont. from Page I. III. JOHANNES PIETER, 3rd child of JAN MANGELESE & VOLKIE JANSE (Adriaensen). JOHANNES PIETER ROLL M. JANNIETJE DUCHENE Bap. 01/27/1686 b. d. THEIR CHILDREN 1. MARIA Bap. Sept. 1700 Married: Johannes Preyer 1. ANNA PREYER Bap. 05/20/1722 2. FRANCYNTJE Bap. 1702 (See P. 359 - Vol. 18. - N.Y.G.B.) P. 1 3. JOHANNES JANSZEN Bap. bet 1702 - 1707 Married: Elizabeth Sickles 4. MARGRIETJE Bap. 12/14/1707 Married: Joseph Da La Meritague M. 03/02/1728 Reformed Dutch Church, N.Y., N.Y. (See Marriages N.Y.G.B. - No record on children) 5. JANNETJE Bap. 10/16/1709 Married: George Perrovett (Children in N.Y.G.B.) NEW ENGLAND HISTORICAL GENEALOGICAL REGISTER - Vol. 18 - Page 238.

Cont. from Page I. II. MANGEL JANSEN, 1st child of JAN MANGELESE & VOLKIE JANSE (Adriaensen). MANGEL JANSEN ROLL M. 10/09/1692 ANNETJE HENDRIEX VOLCX b. b. d. 04/19/1744 d. THEIR CHILDREN 1. CATHARINA Bap. 10/24/1694 Dutch Church N.Y.C. 2. FRANCYNTJE Bap. 02/28/1697 Dutch Church N.Y.C. P. IV. 3. JOHANNES Bap. 08/20/1699 Dutch Church N.Y.C. Married: Aaltje Bas 4. HENDERICK Bap. 03/18/1702 Dutch Church N.Y.C. 5. ANNAATJE Bap. 06/25/1704 Dutch Church N.Y.C. Married Samuel Burnett 6. MARGRIETJE Bap. 11/20/1706 Dutch Church N.Y.C. 7. SARA Bap. 09/12/1711 Dutch Church N.Y.C. Records in NEW YORK GENEALOGICAL AND BIOGRAPHICAL VOLUME - Vol. 11.

JAN MANGELESE M. VOLKIE JANSE ADRIAENSEN b. b/ d. 1705 THEIR CHILDREN P. II 1. MANGEL JANSEN Married: Annetje Hendriex Volcx (spelled several ways) M. 10/09/1692 2. ANNETJE Married: Gerrardus Cornfort 1. MARGRIETJE COMFORT Married Alexander Finex M. 1712 P. III 3. JOHANNES PIETER Bap. 01/27/1686 Married: Jannietje Duchene (spelled several ways) 4. unknown 5. FRYNTJE JANS Bap. 05/02/1697 Married: Pieter Van Ness (spelled several ways) (N.Y.G.B. - Vol. 14 - Page 77) Volkie Janse Adriaensen was the daughter of Pieter Adriaensen van Woggelum and the daughter of a Mohawk Indian Chief. In all records, she was listed only as "wife of Pieter Adriaensen." American Genealogical Volumes - Vol. 32 - Page 204 - 210 lists the Jan Mangelese & Volkie Janse. INDIAN LAND - New York Colonial Collection - Vol. 13 - Page 572. In all records, Jan Mangelese never used the name ROLL but his two sons did.

I am sending four pages that I have from Jan Mangelese & Volkie Janse Adriaensen to the beginning of my N.J. and Penn. Research. They are in Roman Numeral Pages because we researched this after we had several hundred pages of the numbered pages. It needed to be at the beginning and this was the only way to number them without changing all of it. Martha

I have my ROLL lineage on my web page, but I only trace down from Jan Mangelsz ROLL, to Pieter Jansz ROLL, to Jan ("John") ROLL who md Elizabeth (STRICKHAUSER? / SICKLES?), and list their children. I do not follow the children of my direct ancestors' siblings. If anyone wants to take a look, my site is at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/2075 In the first set of links, you'll want to click on "Colonial Dutch Ancestors" and I believe ROLL, VanWOGGELUM, DuCHESNE & BOCQUET/BOCKEE are all there. I haven't updated the site in a long time, and am due to make updates in mid-February (during President's Day Weekend). Thanks. Michael VanBaaren (one of the more silent members of the ROLL mailing list) : )

Hello, Donna & Everyone, Donna just joined our ROLL-L, so thought I would send her the URLs for Bill's & Robin's Homepages listing ROLLs. Are there others that we should be aware of? Bill's at http://members.aol.com/whroll/toc.html Robin's at http://members.aol.com/RLCww/kidd1.htm Audrey

Dear Audrey: I would be happy to send a GEDCOM to the person who inquired. Just send me the email address. I may be a little slow getting it out as have been pretty involved of late. Got a new computer for Christmas (didn't buy it until Jan. 11th!), so have been trying to move my data from the old one to the new one and hoping against hope that I don't drop something in the 'bit-bucket' on the way and lose it! Have lots of backup disks, but not always too good about keeping them up to date. Anyway, should have a copy of the GEDCOM I originally sent to you. It really isn't difficult to send a GEDCOM. Just go to the line on your email where it says 'attachment' and look for the 'file' not the URL, then hit enter. At least that is the way it comes up on my Netscape mail screen. Just let me know. Betty (Roll) Holt

Hansel: Sorry, but I don't find a Patricia Hannegan or a Patricia Roll in my database. (Not to say she shouldn't be there!) Welcome to the group. Hope you will find it as helpful and congenial as I have since first getting "on the web" almost a year ago. Sincerely, Betty (Roll) Holt

Hello, All, This came to me via a query I had entered on my MILLS family. I found this family on Betty's GEDCOM that she so graciously shared with me. Betty, do you wish to make contact with this person, since you have the information she wants, or do I forward her your GEDCOM file? I think Betty is active on this list. Can someone let me know what to do. I have FTM and the ROLLs entered within, plus Betty's GEDCOM on a separate file for now, but I have never sent a GEDCOM attachment before. However, I'm willing to try. Please let me know what to do. Audrey *************************************************** Saw your listing of NJ research. Would like to know if you have a WILLIAM ROLL in your data, b. 1810, Indiana? I found him in the 1860 Fed Cens. for Brownville, Nemaha Co., Nebraska. Listed as being 50 years old. His spouse then is MATILDA - (could be a 1st or 2nd wife) age 40, b. Indiana. Children listed are: Jacob, age 20, b. Indiana (laborer) Julia, age 16, b. Indiana Christina, age 8, b. Indiana Susan, age 6, b. Missouri Thomas, age 4, b. Nebraska In 1880 Fed. Cens. for Bethany twp., Osborne Co., Kansas, MATILDA is then listed as age 61, and spouse of my gg-grandfather, JOHN SEARS, age 62. She is again listed as being born in Indiana, with father born in Indiana, and mother born in SC. On the same property is THOMAS ROLL, then age 24, a farmer, with spouse LAURA A. ROLL, age 15. This Laura is granddaughter of my John Sears, through his 2nd daughter, Evaline (Sears) Jemison. John Sears and both parents were born in KY, according to census records. We don't find any indication of Matilda going to Montana with John Sears, so figure she may have died before he went. John's first wife was HATTIE/HETTY ANN RADLEY, whose ancestors were in Essex/Union Co., NJ (Elizabethtown) prior to ICHABOD RADLEY'S being hired to teach school in Hardin/Nelson/and Breckinridge Co.'s in Kentucky about 1792/3. Ichabod married Hannah Bush in Elizabethtown, Hardin Co., KY, in 1794. I also notice you listed BAKER'S as another name being researched. Do you have a HENRY BAKER who married a Mariann/Maryann Shute RADLEY? She was b. 1800, Essex Co., NJ, and Henry was born at Westfield, Essex, NJ. They married 27 Dec. 1820, Essex Co., NJ. I am looking for more information on the Baker's and Radley's. I am also looking for an ELIZABETH CLARK's family. She was in Essex Co., NJ when she married JOHN RADLEY, (b. 10 Dec. 1707, in Elizabethtown, Essex, NJ. Elizabeth died at Elizabethtown, NJ, Aug. 1767.) If you have any information on any of the above, I'd appreciate hearing from you. Donna Sears Chernick [email protected]

I have been remiss in not passing on some information about RootsWeb. I have not tried the archives in quite a while, but was told they ran out of 'room' and everything will be saved and archived when more storage has been added. Recently, they up-graded their equipment to handle the increased amount of traffic. We are an extremely small list, some lists exceed 1,000 subscribers. One suggestion by another list sponsor was to use copy and paste options instead of reply. Sometimes the same 'reply' message will be archived several times. I am trying to break myself of the habit of using reply and maybe will be able to teach myself how to us copy and paste in MS mail program. (Which I am not thrilled with!) Nancy