Hi, Nancy, I just thought that if it appeared he was married to both women, could there have been a possibility that he married Volkie & she died, then he married Tryntje? Just a toss at something, because this is what happened years ago when many of the first wives died. Audrey ---------- > From: NANCY N LOHBRUNNER <[email protected]> > To: ROLL LIST <[email protected]> > Subject: [ROLL-L] VOLKIE or TRYNTJE- AUDREY > Date: Monday, February 02, 1998 1:30 PM > > Audrey: > > What did you mean by maybe he married both sisters? > > Nancy > >

I didn't receive them. Would enjoy reading them, though. Thanks. Michael

"THOSE IMMIGRANT ANCESTORS #2" The list that was shown in the e-mail of Sat Jan 31st looks like the children of Adriaen and Annetie were mixed with the children of Pieter Adriaensen Van Woggleum. Was shown as (without *): (*is from my notes) !. Pieter Adriaenson b 1610 in Von Woggelum, Holland and died without probate. Son of Adriaen & Annetje. *1. Pieter Adriaensen b 1610 in Woggelum(von or van actually means from) or *1. Pieter, son of Pieter Adriaensen son of Adriaen & Annetje. 2. Jan Pieterse (Known as Jacob Adriense Von Utrecht & Jan Pieterse Van Utrecht) mar 10 Feb 1664 to Unknown. *2. Jacob Adriaensen, son of Adriaen & Annetie or *2. Jan Pieterse son of Pieter Adriaensen, m 10 Feb 1664 Stijntie JANS 3. Catharina? *3. Catharine is English for TRYNTJE, dau of Pieter who m Jan Mangelse. (If they had been Fresian, her name might have been Catrijn, Kaat, or Katrijn.) Annetie Pieters, widow of Adriaen is documented in early records and I have never seen anything refer to a daughter. That's not to say there was not a daughter, there very well could have been, but she would not have been known as Catharina at that time. The marriage date of 25 Aug 1661 for Volkie Janse Adriaensen to Jan Mangelse is interesting. Would like to know where it was found. I'm sure whoever first recorded it found it somewhere. Well Audrey, you asked for input. Don't know if I made any sense or not. Input from anyone else? Nancy

Dear Roll List Members, Sorry about the duplicate message about my web page updates and more. I was starting to worry that it had been lost. I sent the first message at 6:10 pm 2/2/98, and received the posting from the ROLL-L list at 12:38 pm 2/3/98. That's over six hours! The message must have been zooming back and forth across the internet during all that time. I wonder where in the world it traveled? Surely a message to Mars would have been quicker. Sincerely, William Henry Roll [email protected] _________________________________________________________________ William Henry Roll Blythe, California [email protected] The Roll Family Genealogy Windmill http://members.aol.com/whroll "A thousand candles have burned themselves out; yet I read on."

Here is my line. My line is: Jan Mangelse/Tryntje Pieters Pieter Janse Roll/Jannetje DuChesne John Mangels Roll/Elizabeth Abraham Roll/Mary Brooks Jacob Roll/Elizabeth Mills Mary Rall/James Latourette and Moses Rall/Elizabeth Dew Wyatt Mary Jane Latourette/Isaac Brooks Rall 1st cousins Alice Catherine Rall/George Henning Daisy Henning/Hugh O'Neil Carrie O'Neil/John Bowman Nancy Bowman/Armin Lohbrunner Nancy

Dear Members of the Roll List, [This is a duplicate of a message I sent earlier that seems not to have made it to the ROLL-L list.] The Roll Family Genealogy Windmill was updated January 1, 1998 February 1, 1998 There are now almost 500 more names in the Roll family database than were there in December 1997. The Roll family tree currently contains 1464 individuals in 557 family groups. There are an additional 500+ names to add at this time from the Shipman line, and probably as many more from a number of other lines. The Earl/Earle, Boquet/Bookey, Smith/Brotherton/Schooley, Smalley, Cauldwell/Denman, Shipman, and Vreeland lines show additions. The inflow of information is now incredible. It's difficult to keep up. Another researcher sent me photographs (.GIFs) of William Marquis Shipman as a corporal in the Civil War, a .ZIP file of 227 Kb, and as a policeman in Elizabeth New Jersey, a .ZIP file of 349 Kb. If you don't have an unZIPper, I can try to send you the files as a straight email attachment. I have two books in .PDF format to share. You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader, which is free, to view the documents. I can tell you where to download the program and how to set it up. One book, published by the State of Ohio, is titled "Ohio Lands - A Short History" it says the key to understanding and using Ohio land records is the original land surveys, which are unique in that state. This file is 980 Kb. This book may be freely distributed. The other book is "A Pioneer Schooley Family," published in 1941 by May Schooley Ivy. I believe the copyright on this work was not renewed, and is out of copyright. This file is 1,208 Kb. The Brothertons came from the Schooley line, some of whom changed their name from Schooley to Brotherton. The Brothertons were Quakers, and married into the Smith Family. Elizabeth Brotherton, a Quaker, married Jonathan Smith, a Baptist, and raised their daughter Anne Smith in the Baptist church. When Anne married Wesley Roll, not a Quaker, she was dismissed from the Society of Friends. But must later have rejoined the society with her husband before their death. That's why Wesley Roll and Anne Smith are in the Plainfiel Friends' Cemetery. If you are interested in any of the photographs or books, let me know. I will try to send them as an email attachment. Failing that, I believe I can upload them to the FTP area on my web page where you can download them. Never done that before, but I believe it's possible. Perhaps I can put Acrobat Reader there too, if there is room. I have reached the size limit of 2 megabytes of contiguous space for my database on America Online. ~Never~ expected this would happen. I will be forced to move the genealogy database portion of the site to another server before the next update can be made. The last move took place in January when I moved the database to another partition at America Online. But the new space proved to be inadequate in less than a week. The change is transparent to the user accessing the site directly at the original URL. So continue using http://members.aol.com/whroll This link will be maintained after the new site is in place, so you will not have to worry about changing your bookmark. Only genealogy search engines have been affected by the change. Internet FamilyFinder at Family Tree Maker will probably take a long time to notice the change. FamilyFinder is only ~experimental~ at this point, but shows promise of becoming a major tool. Like most large corporations, there is no way to communicate with a real person there. Perhaps I can make the move before Internet FamilyFinder loads up the temporary site information. GENDEX genealogy index made the change in about 15 minutes. GenMatch adjusted their database very quickly. There have been some updates in other areas also. Sincerely, William Henry Roll [email protected] _________________________________________________________________ William Henry Roll Blythe, California [email protected] The Roll Family Genealogy Windmill http://members.aol.com/whroll "A thousand candles have burned themselves out; yet I read on."

Dear Robin, I sent you the Shipman GEDCOM tonight. Please let me know if you got it. Email seems to be going slowly today. I posted a note about my web page updates and a bunch of other stuff today to ROLL-L, and have not seen it yet. It's been several hours. Sometimes I wonder if some email gets lost. Sincerely, William Henry Roll [email protected] _________________________________________________________________ William Henry Roll Blythe, California [email protected] The Roll Family Genealogy Windmill http://members.aol.com/whroll "A thousand candles have burned themselves out; yet I read on."

One of our new 'cousins' Hansel Haycox sent out a few messages. There was a problem and not all of you might have received them. If you did not, let the Roll list know and maybe he can re-post them. (Hansel, if you don't have them any longer, let me know and I will re- post them.) ____ Nancy Lohbrunner [email protected]

Audrey: What did you mean by maybe he married both sisters? Nancy

Hello Martha: You are not the only one to have the name of Volkie Jans as the wife of Jan Mangelse, seems like the majority have had it. One of the first things I ever found on this family had the name Tryntje on it and so when ever I ran across Volkie Janse, I questioned it. Then when I found the agreement between Claes Jansen van Bockhoven and Jan Mangelse, I thought I had figured out what had happened. Did everyone get that agreement? I sent it out a few weeks ago, let me know if you didn't or would like it again. I will not send it to the list again unless most need it, but will be happy to send it to individuals. What did I miss? What pages were donated to Westfield, NJ library? Nancy [email protected] [email protected]

My thoughts or two cents worth. In early New Netherland people had first names they did not have surnames, but others called them sons or daughters of their fathers name. (I think most of us will agree on this.) ie. Pieterse is son of Pieter; Janse is son of Jan. The most common Dutch naming custom was that of patronymics, or identification of an individual based on the father's name. The patronymic was formed by adding -se, -sen, or szen. Daughters would very often have the ending -x or -dr added. There are a few good books written on this subject and can be found at any Library, also several places on the web have Dutch naming patterns. Some were also known by the place they came from, ie VAN WOGGELUM. Personally, I think the Dutch of New Netherland followed this custom until forced by the English to stop. Lettered genealogists and historians will use naming patterns often. The patronymic system must be understood in order to reseach ancestors in New Netherland. One genealogist sent the following to me. "The individual has a given name, say Margriet, which was followed by the name of her father, Jan, plus a suffix, giving you something like Janse, Jansz, or Jansen. That patronymic surname changed with every generation, as Jan's sons became fathers and their given names became patronymics in turn. Now you want to know that first sons were customarily named for their paternal grandfathers, so you can see in some families an alternating procession of Jan Dirckse, Dirk Janse, and so on in alternating name orders. The second son was given the maternal grandfather's given name. This gets confusing when all cousins of a generation have the same first name, but then look at their patronymic, which will be different. Daughters were named for grandparents in the same order. For both, after grandparent's names are used, names are derived from the given names of brothers and sisters, in descending order of age. These naming practices are the strongest clues, if all known children of a coupld are listed in order. Names also came from geography. Let's take a man who lived in the town of Niskayuna, in the county of Schenectady, in the state of New York. Under the custom of that early day, he could use any of those as name sources: van Niskayuna, van Schenectady, van New York, or "the American". The early Bratt family was also known as the Normans, because they were from Norway. One of their sons, Storm, used the last name Vanderzee because he was born at sea, 'of the sea'. Some people used an occupational name, which English also does, like Zimmerman, carpenter. Some had a personal characteristic like red hair, which became their name. A good one is the name SOEGEMAKELYK, meaning so easy going, a good name for an innkeeper! Their geographic name was Van Woggelum, so you see them using that as an alias. The first ones were Pieter and Jacob Adriaense, showing the patronymic." For an example, take a look at the children of Jan Mangelse. Can pick up clues for researching ancestor's names. 1. Antje Janse Roll (was she named for paternal grandmother???) 2. Mangel Janse Roll - named for paternal grandfather 3. Tryntje Janse Roll (was she named for maternal grandmother???) 4. Pieter Janse Roll - named for maternal grandfather 5. Johannes Janse Roll - named for father Nancy

For those who are interested! If you are new to the ROLL list and did not follow what was discussed this past weekend, post a query to the list and one of us will explain. Also if your ROLL was not part of the Dutch line, please post your line and maybe your line might be one of our unidentified ROLL's. "CONTRIBUTIONS FOR THE GENEALOGIES OF THE FIRST SETTLERS OF THE ANCIENT COUNTY OF ALBANY, FROM 1630 TO 1800" by Prof. Jonathan Pearson, Albany, NY 1872. p 116. "VAN BOECKHOVEN, Claas Janse, in 1672-7 in company with Ryck Claase Van Vranken, bought land over the river in Niskayuna. In 1662, he owned a lot on the Vossen Kil in Beverwyck. In 1683, his wife was VOLCKERTJE JANSE; about 1691, he m. Catalyntje De Vos dau. of Andries De Vos and widow of Arent Andriesse Bratt. He probably died about 1712, leaving no children; his property passed to the children of his last wife." It does NOT say he married Volckertje Janse in 1683, BUT that she was his wife at that time. IF Volckertje Janse had been married to Jan Mangelse, THEN SECOND to Claas Janse VAN BOECKHOVEN why didn't Claas Janse leave his property to her children also? Probably because she did NOT have any children at all. IF Volckertje Janse was the daughter of Pieter Adriaensen Van Woggelum, WHY is her surname always shown as JANSE indicating her father's name was JAN and not Pieter. What say you all? Nancy

Dear Members of the Roll List, The Roll Family Genealogy Windmill was updated January 1, 1998 February 1, 1998 There are now almost 500 more names in the Roll family database than were there in December 1997. The Roll family tree currently contains 1464 individuals in 557 family groups. There are an additional 500+ names to add at this time from the Shipman line, and probably as many more from a number of other lines. The Earl/Earle, Boquet/Bookey, Smith/Brotherton/Schooley, Smalley, Cauldwell/Denman, Shipman, and Vreeland lines show additions. The inflow of information is now incredible. It's difficult to keep up. Another researcher sent me photographs (.GIFs) of William Marquis Shipman as a corporal in the Civil War, a .ZIP file of 227 Kb, and as a policeman in Elizabeth New Jersey, a .ZIP file of 349 Kb. If you don't have an unZIPper, I can try to send you the files as a straight email attachment. I have two books in .PDF format to share. You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader, which is free, to view the documents. I can tell you where to download the program and how to set it up. One book, published by the State of Ohio, is titled "Ohio Lands - A Short History" it says the key to understanding and using Ohio land records is the original land surveys, which are unique in that state. This file is 980 Kb. This book may be freely distributed. The other book is "A Pioneer Schooley Family," published in 1941 by May Schooley Ivy. I believe the copyright on this work was not renewed, and is out of copyright. This file is 1,208 Kb. The Brothertons came from the Schooley line, some of whom changed their name from Schooley to Brotherton. The Brothertons were Quakers, and married into the Smith Family. Elizabeth Brotherton, a Quaker, married Jonathan Smith, a Baptist, and raised their daughter Anne Smith in the Baptist church. When Anne married Wesley Roll, not a Quaker, she was dismissed from the Society of Friends. But must later have rejoined the society with her husband before their death. That's why Wesley Roll and Anne Smith are in the Plainfiel Friends' Cemetery. If you are interested in any of the photographs or books, let me know. I will try to send them as an email attachment. Failing that, I believe I can upload them to the FTP area on my web page where you can download them. Never done that before, but I believe it's possible. Perhaps I can put Acrobat Reader there too, if there is room. I have reached the size limit of 2 megabytes of contiguous space for my database on America Online. ~Never~ expected this would happen. I will be forced to move the genealogy database portion of the site to another server before the next update can be made. The last move took place in January when I moved the database to another partition at America Online. But the new space proved to be inadequate in less than a week. The change is transparent to the user accessing the site directly at the original URL. So continue using http://members.aol.com/whroll This link will be maintained after the new site is in place, so you will not have to worry about changing your bookmark. Only genealogy search engines have been affected by the change. Internet FamilyFinder at Family Tree Maker will probably take a long time to notice the change. FamilyFinder is only ~experimental~ at this point, but shows promise of becoming a major tool. Like most large corporations, there is no way to communicate with a real person there. Perhaps I can make the move before Internet FamilyFinder loads up the temporary site information. GENDEX genealogy index made the change in about 15 minutes. GenMatch adjusted their database very quickly. There have been some updates in other areas also. Sincerely, William Henry Roll [email protected] _________________________________________________________________ William Henry Roll Blythe, California [email protected] The Roll Family Genealogy Windmill http://members.aol.com/whroll "A thousand candles have burned themselves out; yet I read on."

Nancy, Thanks for sending that Sale of Land again because I didn't get it the first time. This is the first Document that I have seen with Jan Mangelese's wife's name mentioned. It looks like my records are wrong. The other Sale of Land was probably misread. The Dutch Naming System looks like it might have worked with the first generation here but did not work after that according to my first 4 pages. It also worked when both parents were of the same Nationality. When they came to America, they integrated with other Nationalities and all traditions couldn't be kept. Also, in many other countries, the first born son inherited the land to keep it in the family. That was also a reason for the population of America, many came here with nothing and with the New Land and the New Life, they also wanted New Traditions. I worked on this map and deeds for the Indian Land this weekend. I hope someone can tell me what we've done wrong. We scanned it, printed it out and it looked good. However, when we sent it to me through the mail, it was Giant size. I mean you could have wallpapered a room with this map. I told them that I think we need to Zip it. Is that the problem or what do we do after we scan it? Audrey, thanks but Bill has sent the Church Seating. It was exactly like the one I remembered. I need to get all these things together so I know where they are. Joke, huh. Isn't it nice when other people do things and you don't have to? I'm afraid I've taken advantage of that more than I should have. Betty has been so wonderful to send these things out, all I have to do is say Betty, would you mind, and she does it. I really need to check out the records and fill in whatever, she doesn't have. That would probably be much easier that filling in the N.J. from what Hansel has. The records at Westfield, N.J. Library, were probably donated by: Albert Thomas Roll (Mary Cecelia Stanton) 462 Madison Avenue, Rahway, New Jersey - 07065. Al & Mae wrote for years and sent me a map of Springfield, New Jersey during the Revolution. He never said that he was going to do this but I believe that he did. Does anyone have the name of the person who donated those pages? Of course, it might have been his brother, George Wesley Roll ( Mona Kuehner), 316 Chestnut Avenue West, Metuchen, New Jersey, 08840. But I believe it was Al and Mae. But then, I may have the wrong family altogether. There were many others in N.J. who got a complete set of the genealogy. Martha

From: "David Hancock" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ROLL-L] VOLKIE OR TRYNTJE Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:42:35 -0600 Nancy what is meant here by TAG? ***THE AMERICAN GENEALOGIST if often referred to as TAG. Also, Nancy what is the significance of this resource. Is the land mentioned in here also? ***yes "Genealogy of the Roll Family Ancestry and descendants of John Roll of Elizabethtown Township Essex County New Jersey and Allied families of Brotherton-Burrows-Cory-Crane-Earl-Norris-Schooley-Smith-Vreeland-Wade-Wilso n and Woolley" by Richard Timbrook Wilson. Ridgewood, bergen County, New Jersey 1921. With Additions by Richard John Franz 3rd. Pensacola, Escambia County, Florida. Starting in 1957, and Including Doland and Franz Families. Compiled by Marquerite S. Roll. 1972. P 29 & 30. And...would this be the same land spoken about in Edwin D. ROLL's history mentioned below? ***yes Nancy

I'm hardly an expert on naming patterns, but one thing to keep in mind is that our ancestors were people just like us. Unfortunately, they too sometimes fell prey to ulterior motives and family squabbles, just as we do today. A son who disliked his own father might chose a name to spite his dad, Or if there were a wealthy relative somewhere in the family (particularly one without children) perhaps a child named after that relative would stand a good chance of inheritance. I think it's probably not safe to assume folks would automatically adhere to naming patterns from the "old country". Ed

Thanks to Michael & Bill & Martha & Nancy & Kathy for all your references, thoughts, information, homepages, etc. These are all greatly appreciated. Lots of information here to understand, filter out and disseminate, & try to bring cohesively back together again. Now I have to get busy and see if I can find some of these resources locally or go to Ft. Wayne again. Martha, I will send you a copy of that church setting as soon as I can unearth it. I put it s o m e w h e r e , probably never to be found, but will start looking. I'm trying to get organized with the many genealogies I am researching. Maybe someone can scan it for us...when I find it. If I can't find it soon, I'll try to look for the book again. Take care all. Audrey

Well, that gives me something to dig into when I go to Salt Lake City this Fall!! My VanBaaren ancestors are all from the city of Utrecht, and the Dutch Reformed records are all INDEXED back to the early to mid-1600's. I'll have to check the indexes for the patronymic Mangelse and see what I come up with. I also have a list of burgomasters and notaries in the city of Utrecht that dates back to the early 1600's (if I can just put my hands on it!). I will let all know if I find anything in any of these sources. Thanks, Bill. Michael

I got my information on the vanWoggelum line from TAG (The American Genealogist) -- I'll have to look through my files to cite the exact issue. I found an article on "The Easy-Going VanWoggelums" which contained most of the facts I gathered on the family, in addition to what I received from Nancy (which agreed almost exactly with what I had). I will admit on the names, I do "standardize" them to the true Dutch language fashion. In Dutch, the word of "son" is "zoon", so TECHNICALLY, Pieter Adriaansz (as I have him listed) is: Pieter, Adriaans zoon (Adriaan's son) The Dutch abbreviate that to Adriaansz, much the same was as the Norwegians, Danes & Swedes abbreviate Olsdatter (Norwegian/Danish) and Olsdotter (Swedish) to "Olsdr." The Scandinavians even pronounce that name closer to "Olsdet" than "Olsdatter", and the Dutch pronounce Pieters and the "z" is silent. This is just from what relatives and natives of Holland have told me. Also, in the name "Adriaen", they use the archaic spelling where "ae" was used for the current "aa" .... you will see the Dutch surname "Bogaart" written as "Bogaert" in the very early records. Just a colonial vs. modern spelling issue. That's just the way I record things. I'm not saying it's undeniably correct, but I like to be consistent. The Dutch, etc. misspelled names in records just as often as Americans and English did (I'm sure most have seen numerous spellings in records for their surnames of English origin). I'm open to any comments that anyone would like to make. I always welcome new ideas and the opinions of fellow researchers. : ) Michael VanBaaren [email protected] or [email protected]

Let me offer something I've learned about Dutch naming patterns (I have a lot of recent Dutch immigrants on my father's side, and have researched Dutch records in Holland from the 1870's back to the mid 1600's): Usually (but NOT always) the first son is named for the paternal grandfather the second son is named for the maternal grandfather the third son is named for the father the first daughter is named for the paternal grandmother the second daughter is named for the maternal grandmother the third daughter is named for the mother. Of course, there were instances when these "traditions" were not followed. As an example, say a man named Jan Hendriks vanAken (son of a Hendrik Pieterse vanAken) names his first son. He could name him Hendrik Janse vanAken (taking the patronymic using his first name) or he could give him the FULL patronymic name of the paternal grandfather (in this case, Henrik Pieterse vanAken). I think this happened in our ROLL family. John ROLL (the one who moved to NJ with wife, Elizabeth), is often called Jan Mangelse ROLL. Well, his father was Pieter Janse ROLL, so one would think that the son would be Jan Pieterse ROLL, but he was named for the grandfather, using the grandfather's FULL patronymic - Jan MANGELSE. Does that make sense? Sometimes when I look at this stuff, it doesn't make sense to me, but after a while I finally kinda figured it out. The Dutch patronymic naming system is actually more confusing to me than my Norwegian ancestors! Because of the evidence that comes to life in the Deed mentioning Tryntje, I am extremely convinced that Volkie Janse must have been a confusion in interpreting the document containing her name. The evidence strongly points to her name being Tryntje Pieterse (possibly vanWoggelum) .... Pieter Adriaense's sons used vanWoggelum, but they also used that long "nickname" Schomegelack (or however it was spelled) and they used Pieterse. I am also curious as to whether anyone has followed up on a reference I saw saying that Jan Mangelse might have been from Haaren or Purmerend in Noord Holland (I've never researched that provice in the Netherlands, and am unfamiliar with their records). Most Dutch Reformed records in the Netherlands only seem to date back to the mid to late 1600's which is probably a bit too late for our immigrant Jan Mangelse, but some of his siblings and their families could be mentioned in the records. Michael VanBaaren [email protected] or [email protected]