Hi Again Listers This is what I tried to send yesterday, but something happened to part of my message.--Betty I hit the brick wall with Cyril and Silas, and so turned to recent info on John Greene, the Fugitive. I have only seen him in the lineage of John Greene the Surgeon, but have my doubts now from what I include at the end of this email. I am trying to get in touch with the author, Alison Weir. I know nothing about these authors or their references. I only just got them and that is why I am sending it to the different lists. Perhaps someone out there has some imput. Let me know what you think.--Betty In the book by Alison Weir, THE PRINCES IN THE TOWER, copyrighted 1994, American edition, is what she has to say about John Greene: "More and Vergil say that when Richard arrived at Gloucester he sent for a man called John Green 'whom he specially trusted.' John Green can be traced; he had been employed, in various capacities, by Richard when he was Duke of Gloucester, . . . He may well have been the same John Green who is recorded in the CALENDAR OF PATENT ROLLS for 1474-5 as working in Edward IV;s household. On 30th July, 1483, John Green signed a warrant appointing one John Gregory to take hay, oats, horsebread, beans, peas and litter for all expenses of the King's horses and litters for a period of six months. The King, says More, sent Green 'unto Sir Robert Brackenbury, Constable of the Tower, with a letter and credence that the same Sir Robert should in any wise put the two children to death.' It has been argues that Richard III would never have committed such an order to paper, but it is nevertheless plausible that he did so. His letter, . . . is likely to have been discreetly worded so as not to compromise himself. Green was to supply the 'credence,' the unwritten, explicit details, to Brackenbury, and both were men trusted implicitly by Richard. Continues More: 'This John Green did his errand unto Brackenbury.' But Brackenbury was not the stuff of which murderers are made. Vergil says he feared the consequences to his own reputation and safety should his complicity in what More calls 'so mean and bestial a deed' ever be made public. In Green's presence, he knelt 'before Our Lady in the Tower' and 'plainly answered that he would never put (the Princes) to death, though he should die therefor.' pp. 147-8 The King remained at Warwick until 15th August, when he went to Coventry. More states that John Green, returning from the Tower, recounted Brackenbury's refusal to comply with the order to kill the Princes 'to King Richard at Warwick.' p. 150 . . . With Tyrell rode a man whom More describes as Sir James' 'own horsekeeper, a big, broad, square, strong knave' called John Dighton. As a groom he may well have known John Green, who helped look after the royal horses. pp. 156-7 . . . As for those others, who assisted Tyrell with the murder of the Princes, Forrest and Green both received grants from the King late in 1483, and Green was appointed to several offices: Receiver of the Isle of Wight and overseer of the Port of Southampton on 14th December 1483, and Escheator of Southampton in December 1484. On 20th September 1483 he was granted a general pardon for all offences by the King, and in order to avoid questions being asked about his activities, his neighbours in Warwickshire were all granted one too. Such pardons were not unusual during the aftermath of conspiracies." p. 160 There is another reference to this John Greene in the book, WITTER GENEALOGY, written by Georgia Cooper Washburn published in New York 1929 on page 249: "JOHN GREENE, son of the foregoing, was sent, in 1483, by King Richard III as a messenger bearing a letter from the King to Sir Robert Brackenbury who was then the keeper of the Tower of London. In this letter the King gave orders that his two nephews, "the little Princes in the Tower," should be put to death. Although this inquitous command was later obeyed by another governor of the Tower, Sir Robert refused to commit murder at his sovereign's behest, and sent his message of refusal back to the King by John Greene. It is a tradition that when King Henry VII came to the throne he bore enmity to this John Greene because he had played (only) the part of a messenger for Richard III in the later's wicked designs, and that John Greene fled from England lest he be captured by the King. It is said that "John the Fugitive*" returned to England and for safety assumed the name of John Clarke. . . Despite his change of name, the identity of John Greene, the Fugitive was discovered, and he again fled from England, his further history being unknown." *The ancestor of John Greene of Quidnesset.