Hello fellow Riddle researchers: Many of you "know of" what I am about to say here ... others may not. Jack Goins has said in a old (RIDDLE postings) to this LIST if you look through the archived one's ... that William Riddle wasn't found recorded as Thomas... That would of course depending on what you would consider as a ligitamate source record. I don't know wherein the ARCHIVE RIDDLE LIST Jack made this comment off hand? <A HREF="http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=RIDDLE">http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=RIDDLE</A> You will find people / relatives to this family i.e. descendants (calling him different names) as I am also a descedant of William Riddle the Loyalist. Or, if you prefer Tory (the 'two ways' of saying the same thing) depending on one's perspective who would have particularly been living in Rev. War days. Any way, one can find William Riddle (the tory -or- loyalist) both called "William T. Riddle" or "William Thomas Riddle" or "William Riddle" and even "Thomas Riddle". I have no explaination myself for the different ways he has been referred to. Thomas may or may not have been his middle name ... Or, it may well have been his middle name but possibly unverifiable by a U.S. Government source record, tax record, or census Schedule. Not all such records however contain middle names. Thomas could also have been his (nickname)? At any rate it has persisted as a name "attributed" to him ... even if there is no source one may recognized as proof ... there are plenty of old family documents that list him with this name as we are even still to this day doing so, per the intital e-mail to this List with this question in view. And, we have no birth certificate of course available from this era for him as we don't for many ancestors who's middle names we may have been told through family records. As, such some do not prefer to use the Thomas as part of his name that is of course perfectly acceptable. Or, you may prefer to put it as such not certain of it at all as William (Thomas) Riddle, or even a ? mark after this name. When there is a unknown it can not be said to be proven one way or another without another middle name being proven. Sometimes people will try and invent a middle name for a ancestor ... but as far as I have ever heard if this is even a possiblity it happen many years ago. I don't think to much more could be said on the subject of his name except perhaps to sight sources of genealogy records family members have kept that spelt it that way. But again perhaps something will surface in the future that some may feel more credible to support what maybe considered proof on this issue of his name. But, more than likely (what his middle name was) will remain a mystery to many; and yet excepted as (known and vaild name) to many others. Jodie had made some good points in her posting! Sincerely, Russ Merryman A cousin and Descendant of William Riddle. This is all I can add. I don't know if this will be of any help ...(please read it in conjunction with other postings)... P.S. I've cut & pasted an old e-mail to the list here incase some have missed this one in relation to the Moses and William Riddle and the Melugeon/Indian ethnic subject as well. We must remember Melugeons can be more that one race (not necessarily "tri-racial") and by that meaning one has to be black as the term has often be stereotyped. Melugeon is a more modern accurate terminology whereas long ago they may have clumped everyone as being "non-white" as Mulatto. Long ago if you were not "solely white" that was a stigma to many in white society as outlined above in a lack of concern to what someone's ethnic background was if it wasn't white. (Heritage and ethnic ancestry is important! -- not to clump everyone into two categories). The following is an old posting from the Archive of Riddle postings: <A HREF="http://www.cnidr.org/">CNIDR</A> Isearch-cgi 1.20.06 (File: 332) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:28:37 -0500 From: "Jack Goins" <A HREF="mailto:jgoins@usit.net"> To: RIDDLE-L@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <00c401bf2f11$202e06a0$84b450d8@rchill> Subject: [RIDDLE-L] Saponi Indian Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Was Moses Riddle a Saponi Indian? Notice the names on these Orange County, Virginia Court records; (Order Book 3 1741-43 courtesy, Dr. Virginia DeMarce)..Alexander Machartoon, *John Bowling, Manincassa, Capt Tom, Isaac, Harry, Blind Tom, foolish Jack, *Charles Griffin, *John Collins, Little Jack. indians being bought before the Court on suspicion of stealing Hogs..Ordered that their guns be taken from them till they are ready to depart out of the county, they having declared their intentions to depart this colony within a week.. On pages 309-312 the above named men are shown as having individually put up security The following Saponi information is from a Saponi chronology compiled from an Eno-Occoneechee petition for recognition by the State of North Carolina: A. 1750s The Saponi have a settlement near Hillsboro NC. B. Post Rev. Pleasant Grove region Saponi Indians Jeramiah Bunch, George Gibson, and Henry Bunch receive land grants in 1785 along the Eno River just east of Hillsboro NC.. Tax collectors were instructed to enumerate Indians on tax records in both VA & NC as mulatto. Here are a few names from a 1755 Tax list from Orange County, NC. Gedion Bunch 1 tithe (mulatto); John Collins 1 tithe (Mulatto); Moses Ridley 1 tithe & wife Mary (mulatto) ; Thomas Gibson 3 tithes (Mulatto); George Gibson 1 tithe mulatto;.Micajer Bunch 1 tithe (mulatto).. This 1750 list from this same area, although in 1750 this was Granville County William Bowling; James Bowling;John Collins;Gedion Bunch;Thomas Gibson. 1761 Orange County NC deed 700 acres to John Brown included the improvements of Bowling and Riddle (William Boling, Bolen and Moses Riddle) Chainbearers were Moses Riddle and Charles Gibson. Moses probably worked for this John Brown, and became indebted to him, then moved to pittslyvania County, Virginia. Ironically a Charles Griffin testified in a 1753 Orange County NC Court deposition that he knew John Goins some 30 years ago and that he was a lazy, triffling, no good gambler, and a mulatto.. Was this the Hog thief Charles Griffin lying about my possible grandpaw ?. John Collins, and Micajer Bunch migrated from Orange County NC in 1767 to the back woods area of the New River and are recorded as living on Indian land on a 1753 Fincastle County Virginia Tax record. Both these families has a close relationship with William Riddle in Montgomery County, Virginia... Jack ______________________________ ------------------------------ EXCERPT FROM RIDDLE ARCHIVE LIST: <A HREF="http://www.cnidr.org/">CNIDR</A> Isearch-cgi 1.20.06 (File: 331) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 11:30:52 -0500 From: "Jack Goins" <A HREF="mailto:jgoins@usit.net"> To: RIDDLE-L@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <001801bf2ebd$9f410b80$9d9050d8@rchill> Subject: Re: [RIDDLE-L] Native American History/Saponi Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Carol, That is the right page (356) in Ridlon, since William T. had a brother named Moses. Then applying family naming patterns of that time frame, or even today, this insures the probability that their father's name was Moses, also using this same approach, the son hung with William Riddle at Wilkesboro was probably named Moses..Jack >-----Original Message----- >From: Jack Goins [mailto:jgoins@usit.net] >Sent: Saturday, November 13, 1999 8:23 PM >To: RIDDLE-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [RIDDLE-L] Native American History/Saponi > >A Test for all you Tories: Apart from court documents, tax & census,etc. >there is another family reason that supports Moses Riddle as the father of >William , what is that? A clue; you can find it in G.T. Ridlon.. No money >for the winner.. Jack ===================================== In a message dated 02/14/2003 6:42:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, Dayjovu@aol.com writes: > Subj: [RIDDLE] RE: William Thomas Riddle &Proof > Date: 02/14/2003 6:42:15 AM Pacific Standard Time > From: <A HREF="mailto:Dayjovu@aol.com">Dayjovu@aol.com</A> > Reply-to: <A HREF="mailto:RIDDLE-L@rootsweb.com">RIDDLE-L@rootsweb.com</A> > To: <A HREF="mailto:RIDDLE-L@rootsweb.com">RIDDLE-L@rootsweb.com</A> > Sent from the Internet > > Carol et al.... > > First -- List - sorry for use of bandwith... > > I can't give you proof, but I can give you some good sources. -- Jodie > desc. > of William Thomas Riddle > Note: (some people use Tory for the T, but it's only for quick > identification. Tory is not his middle name!) > - Let me know if you have any problem "surfing' to online sources! - > Jodie > > Assumption # 1: Moses Ridley and William Ridley are assumed to be > Father/Son > based on this document below, family migration pattern and birthdates from > other documents. > > source: <http://www.rootsweb.com/~vapittsy/tith.htm> A List of Tithables for > > Pittsylvania County Taken by John Wilson, Gentl, in Year 1767 > John Stone &son John George Lumpkin, son Robert & son George, John Travis, > negroes Jack & Betty Absolom Bostick, negro Pato Nathan Bostick Thomas > Garner, negroes Harry, Lillis, Cate & Peg William Shelton John MacMillion > William > Munkers Richard Ardin Daniel Sallahan John Yates & son John, negroes Bob & > Cate Charles, Little Barsheba Beverly (Mulato)Moses Ridle (Indian), William > > Ridle,John WynneRobt. WorshamJohn FerrolDavid LayRobert MacconowayJohn > SimmonsZachariah ScagsHenry Stone and son William, Mason Combs, negro > SarahHenry Greens LandJohn Owen &Sons William &John, negro Sameorge Holms > Gwin, negroes Lill, Lucy, Fillis &GwinDextrous MusickWilliam NelsonJames > SartainPeter GrimstedJohn Owen (Cain Cr)Small Wood OwenTimothy Stamps, John > > Stamps &Thomas StampsBenjamine Thrasher &negro LuckWm. W. HodgesGoram > BrownWilliam WatsonWilliam RiceIsiah Watkins &Edward Lester (Miller)Peter > Perkins and James, son, negroes Lownon &HannahJohn Wilson, negroes, viz; > Roger, Will, Charles, Isaac, Betty, Lin &DollIsaac SartainRichard > AdamsValentine Hatcher &negroes Matt, Beck and CharlesDavid Stephins > > Assumption #2: Jack Goins is a descendant of William Thomas Riddle's > daughter > Harriet Riddle Fisher. He has written several books. One is sited below. > > "In the Riddle family of Utah there is a tradition that the family was of > "Portugee" ancestry, which is a common tradition among people of Melungeon > ancestry. See also Jack H. Goins, "Melungeon Families - Sizemore, Minor, > Goins, Fisher and Riddle," Families of Hawkins County, Tennessee > (1786-1994), > (Rogersville, Tn. : Hawkins County Genealogical and Historical Society, > 1994), pp. 537-540. > > 1752 Grandville Co NC: Thomas Collins received a land grant on the Flatt > River on Dials Creek. Witnesses were Paul Collins, George Gibson and Moses > Riddle. > > Assumption #3: > Orange County tax listed several Melungeon families, or their descendants, > who later came to Newman Ridge: Gedion Bunch, Micajer Bunch, Thomas > Collins, > Samuel Collins, John Collins, Moses and Mary Ridley (Riddle), Thomas > Gibson, > Charles Gibson, George Gibson, and Mager Gibson. All of the above were > listed > as mulattoes. > > *Mulattoes back then meant "not pure white". > *Newman Ridge is in Hawkins Co. TN; > Assumption #4: > William's wife Happy returned to Hawkins Co TN after William and son were > hung. Moses &Mary lived there too! Happy still had the small children to > care for; she remarried to William Ingraham [ William Ingram (Ingraham) > were > signers of the petition to form Lee County, Va. Ingraham was married to > Happy > Riddle, widow of William Riddle.] source: <A HREF="http://www.fialcowitz.com/Bunch/other9.html"> > http://www.fialcowitz.com/Bunch/other9.html</A> > > Source: http://www.jimcal.com/Riddle%20Researchers.htm#Thomas > > >Family Line: William Thomas Riddle, b. abt. 1740, m. Harriet "Happy" > Rogers > >Roberts. Some researchers of this family believe that William was a Tory > >Captain and lived in VA, conducted raids into NC during the Revolutionary > >War and was hung in Wilkes Co., NC. Other researchers believe William was > >an American patriot and served under Gen. Francis "Swamp Fox" Marion, was > >captured by the British and hung in Augusta, GA. After the death of > >William, his wife "Happy" and their children moved west to Tennessee. > >William's descendants continued their western migration to TX, UT, and > >IN.Be sure and read these past articles dealing with William Thomas Riddle > > >that appeared in the Riddle Newsletters.<A HREF="http://www.jimcal.com/v02is02.htm#p1">Captain Riddle Hanged in > >Wilkesboro, NC</A> > ><A HREF="http://www.jimcal.com/v03is01.htm#Tory">William Thomas Riddle – Tory or Patriot?</A> > <A HREF="http://www.jimcal.com/v03is02.htm#Tory">The Tory Oak Is Gone</A> > <A HREF="http://www.jimcal.com/v04is01.htm#William">William Riddle 1740 - 1781</A> > <A HREF="http://www.jimcal.com/v04is01.htm#Research">Riddle Research Trip to Tennessee, NC and VA</A> > <A HREF="http://www.jimcal.com/v04is02.htm#Research">Riddle Research Trip</A> It is strongly recommended that anyone interested in > the > William Thomas Riddle family should obtain a copy of Mary Hill's research > report that deals with the William Thomas Riddle family. The William Riddle > > 1740-1781 article above is but a small portion of Mary's research paper. > Mary will be happy to supply a copy for the cost of reproduction plus > shipping in the amount of $20.00.Contact: > Mary E.V. Hill > 1052 Briar Ave. > Provo, UT 84604 > Phone: 801-373-5203 > E-mail: <A HREF="mailto:maryevhill@home.com">maryevhill@home.com</A> > Web Site: <A HREF="http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/h/i/l/Mary--E-Hill/">Mary E.V. Hill Family Home Page</A>James I. Riddle III > 4247 Goodfellow Dr. > Dallas, TX 75229-2815 > E-mail: <A HREF="mailto:jriddle@onramp.net">jriddle@onramp.net</A>Chauncey C. Riddle > 1146 Birch Lane > Provo, Utah 84604 > <A HREF="mailto:cbr13@netutah.net">cbr13@netutah.net</A> > -------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 2/13/2003 6:46:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Cats@personalcomputer.net writes: > > >Carol I did not find proof; saw the posting from Riddle list rootsweb. I > can > >not find my Green Joseph Riddle's line Ala. frances > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "carol seal" <carols@pldi.net> > >To: <RIDDLE-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 10:35 AM > >Subject: Re: [RIDDLE] Re:thank you > > > > > >>Frances, > >> > >>Family of William and Harriet Riddle. I have been searching the > >>connection between Moses and William for years. Where did you find > >>proof that William's father was Moses and that he had a son named > >>Moses that was hung with him in Wilkesboro? Also, where did you find > >>proof that his middle name was Thomas? > >> > >>My great Aunt did research on the Riddle family many years (before > >>home computers) and in her documentation she writes that his name was > >>William Thomas Riddle. I could never find proof. > >> > >>Thanks for any help. > >> > >>Carol > >> > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: Frances Wimberly <Cats@personalcomputer.net> > >>To: <RIDDLE-L@rootsweb.com> > >>Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 5:46 PM > >>Subject: [RIDDLE] Re:thank you > >> > >> > >>>thank you for the reply. frances > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: <Dayjovu@aol.com> > >>>To: <RIDDLE-L@rootsweb.com> > >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:15 PM > >>>Subject: Re: [RIDDLE] William T Riddle b. 1740 > >>> > >>> > >>>>In a message dated 1/27/2003 8:15:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, > >>>>Cats@personalcomputer.net writes: > >>>> > >>>>>Is this the > >>>>>Tory who was hanged with his son by that mean crooked judge? I > >>jsut (sp) > >>>>>can't get it straight. frances > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>Frances > >>>>Yes, William Thomas Riddle was hung on the "Tory Oak"; however, > >>given that > >>>>his "group" was part Native American, at the time the British were > >>>promising > >>>>much to NA that the "colonist" were not. William's wife remarried > >>shortly > >>>>after. The reason it's suspected that William T's father was > >>Moses > >>>>Ridley/Riddle is because William had a son named Moses who was > >>about 15 > >>>when > >>>>he and his father were killed. -- Jodie > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>==== RIDDLE Mailing List ==== > >>>>To unsubscribe, please send the command "unsubscribe" in an email > >>to: > >>>>RIDDLE-L-request@rootsweb.com (if in mail mode) or > >>>>RIDDLE-D-request@rootsweb.com (if in digest mode) > >>>> > >>>>============================== > >>>>To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > >>records, > >>>go to: > >>>>http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>==== RIDDLE Mailing List ==== > >>>NOTICE: Posting of virus warnings, test messages, chain letters, > >>political > >>>announcements, current events, items for sale, personal messages, > >>flames, > >>>etc. (in other words - spam) is NOT ALLOWED and will be grounds for > >>removal. > >>> > >>>============================== > >>>To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > >>records, go to: > >>>http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >>==== RIDDLE Mailing List ==== > >>Contact the Listowner sjblackmon@digitalpassage.com > >>Whispers from the Past..... > >>http://www.susanblackmon.com > >> > >>============================== > >>To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > >go to: > >>http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >> > > > > > >==== RIDDLE Mailing List ==== > >To unsubscribe, please send the command "unsubscribe" in an email to: > >RIDDLE-L-request@rootsweb.com (if in mail mode) or > >RIDDLE-D-request@rootsweb.com (if in digest mode) > > > >============================== > >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > >go to: > >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > ==== RIDDLE Mailing List ==== > Remember, undocumented genealogy is mythology > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >