Cleve, you are right on all counts. The thing that I'm going to do in looking for Lawrence,b.1751/52, and Ishmael,b.1749, father is look for a different spelling for Rain(e)s. I've always disallowed Rainy,Rainey, and Raney. But we now know that a John, Robert and William Rainey were in Orange Co. in the 1700's. As I've given up finding there father in Caroline Co., I am going to look in a different direction. Lawrence and Ishmael are not necessarily the brothers to Anthony,b.1757 or John,b.1759. Eleven years is enough time looking for my 5g-gf spelled Rains. I now believe that the Rains,Reines & etc of Randolph Co. are all even related. O-well Vergil Raines Baxter@aol.com