John, you make some very good points on the use of property and change of use. Evelyn

Very nice package idea, John, but first we have to find somebody who cares. I read about Woodland Park ages ago, it just doesn't help with Snohomish. I hope all of you will join me in supporting Andi McDonald's Washington State Cemetery Association web site which Andi plans to have up by November 1st, God willing! She is covering every county in the state (WA state, not Washington DC). She wants to list every cemetery; big ones, little ones, private ones, endangered ones, all of them. If you know of an obscure or endangered cemetery anywhere in the state, Andi will want to know about it. I've viewed the site under construction and it is very nice, very thorough, very ambitious. "Andrea D. MacDonald" <andimac@visnetinc.com> If all cemeteries are listed somewhere, nobody can say they didn't know about them, nobody should be able to say they didn't know there were still graves there, nobody should be able to pour an asphalt parking lot over them and move an old house onto a cemetery. And, most certainly, all cemeteries should be properly deeded, restricted and cared for. Let's not allow another cemetery in this state to be abused as Snohomish has been. Norma John Wm Sloniker wrote: > <snip> > I have an idea that will work in any of the U.S. States, though it will > take some planning & preparation. > > Find the local small cemeteries in your areas that are no longer active > and get the title transferred to an entity or established group that has > an interest in local history, with restrictions on future use included > in the title transfer. With proper restrictions a tax emption should be > possible on the land so that a non-profit Historical group can do it. > > For research, check the history of Woodland Park in Seattle. That land > was deeded with restrictions of park use only, not to be devided. > > Didn't work. Well, almost. Seattle & WA state wanted to build a high- > way right through the center, and got their way for US-99 However, the > compromise was connecting bridges, above the highway so that many don't > notice when using the park. They didn't have grave sites to deal with. > > Today we have new laws in Washington state that require the "active" in > use cemeteries to have a Perpetual Care plan in effect to keep them the > way they are now "forever". At least that's the plan. > > For those that don't have such a plan, new burials aren't allowed. The > new law allows for inactive cemeteries to become active with the porper > Perpetual Care plan in place. There are also provisions for Historical > cemeteries, but they must be recorded as such. Planning & paperwork. > > Hopefully this will provide some ideas for others that know about a few > neglected cemeteries. Give it a try. > > John > > *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====* > # John Wm Sloniker <johnwms@serv.net> Seattle, WA # > # (206) 789-6663 7323 - 19th Ave NW 98117-5612 # > *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*

On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, John Wm Sloniker wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- City can build over old cemetery Judge orders remains moved for youth center By PAM McGAFFIN Herald Writer Tuesday, October 27, 1998 SNOHOMISH -- The city of Snohomish should be permitted to remove and relocate human remains at an old cemetery where it wants to build a youth center, a judge decided Monday. <snip> The controversy surrounds Snohomish County's first cemetery and the final resting place for about 300 pioneers and Indians. The last documented burial at the site was of an Indian woman, Pilchuck Julia, in 1923. In 1947, the cemetery was split by the construction of Highway 2, now Second Street. Prior to building the road, the state highway department had at least 111 sets of remains removed and reinterred at the G.A.R. Cemetery west of town. Over the next 40 years, volunteers periodically cleaned up the cemetery, but it was vandalized, fell into disrepair and became overgrown. The poor condition of the cemetery was key to Judge French's ruling. "The sanctity, respect and dignity to which the deceased are rightly entitled have been lost and forgotten long ago," he wrote. "Too much time has passed and too much neglect has occurred for this Court to conclude the interests of the deceased are better served by allowing them to remain in their present location." <snip> You can contact Herald writer Pam McGaffin by e-mail at: mcgaffin@heraldnet.com or by phone at 425-339-3429 //////////////// END //////////////////// That lack of care is the key to the problem. I have an idea that will work in any of the U.S. States, though it will take some planning & preparation. Find the local small cemeteries in your areas that are no longer active and get the title transferred to an entity or established group that has an interest in local history, with restrictions on future use included in the title transfer. With proper restrictions a tax emption should be possible on the land so that a non-profit Historical group can do it. For research, check the history of Woodland Park in Seattle. That land was deeded with restrictions of park use only, not to be devided. Didn't work. Well, almost. Seattle & WA state wanted to build a high- way right through the center, and got their way for US-99 However, the compromise was connecting bridges, above the highway so that many don't notice when using the park. They didn't have grave sites to deal with. Today we have new laws in Washington state that require the "active" in use cemeteries to have a Perpetual Care plan in effect to keep them the way they are now "forever". At least that's the plan. For those that don't have such a plan, new burials aren't allowed. The new law allows for inactive cemeteries to become active with the porper Perpetual Care plan in place. There are also provisions for Historical cemeteries, but they must be recorded as such. Planning & paperwork. Hopefully this will provide some ideas for others that know about a few neglected cemeteries. Give it a try. John *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====* # John Wm Sloniker <johnwms@serv.net> Seattle, WA # # (206) 789-6663 7323 - 19th Ave NW 98117-5612 # *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*

If you haven't read the Herald, here's the story. -- jws City can build over old cemetery Judge orders remains moved for youth center By PAM McGAFFIN Herald Writer Tuesday, October 27, 1998 SNOHOMISH -- The city of Snohomish should be permitted to remove and relocate human remains at an old cemetery where it wants to build a youth center, a judge decided Monday. The decision by Snohomish County Superior Court Judge Charles French also settles a question hanging over an existing senior center on the property, southeast of Second Street and Pine Avenue. The Snohomish Tribe and descendants of a pioneer family have tried to prevent the city from disturbing remains and building on the cemetery site. They also argued that the senior center should be removed because it's not a cemetery use. But French said he found no legal basis to grant their request to remove the building. Tom Haensly, attorney representing the tribe and Ruth Moore and Carolynn Crawford, said his clients haven't decided yet whether they will appeal. Meanwhile, Snohomish city manager Bill McDonald expressed relief at the ruling. "This is going to remove a cloud that has existed over that property for 100 years," he said. "Once and for all, we'll solve that big question mark: What do we do with this property? And we'll do it in a way that respects the past but allows us to move forward." "We're excited to get this youth center back on track and under way," said Jeff Soth, mayor of Snohomish. The city has committed to spending $20,000 for a memorial and interpretive center to explain the property's history, he said. "We'll have the kind of respect we've always intended to have for the past," he said. The controversy surrounds Snohomish County's first cemetery and the final resting place for about 300 pioneers and Indians. The last documented burial at the site was of an Indian woman, Pilchuck Julia, in 1923. In 1947, the cemetery was split by the construction of Highway 2, now Second Street. Prior to building the road, the state highway department had at least 111 sets of remains removed and reinterred at the G.A.R. Cemetery west of town. Over the next 40 years, volunteers periodically cleaned up the cemetery, but it was vandalized, fell into disrepair and become overgrown. The poor condition of the cemetery was key to Judge French's ruling. "The sanctity, respect and dignity to which the deceased are rightly entitled have been lost and forgotten long ago," he wrote. "Too much time has passed and too much neglect has occurred for this Court to conclude the interests of the deceased are better served by allowing them to remain in their present location." In 1996, the city, as owner of the property, asked the court to remove the cemetery dedication so that the youth center could be built. The senior center was established on a corner of the property in 1992. Moore and Crawford, descendants of the pioneer Low family, protested and went to court to try to stop the city from disturbing their ancestor's graves or building on the land. The Snohomish Tribe also sought to block the city's plans, saying the cemetery was an Indian burial ground. Last June, tests revealed at least one set of human bones at the site. City officials and the complainants differ as to how many more bodies might be found. McDonald said the city would be surprised to find five, whereas the complainants maintain there could be as many as 100. As part of the court decision, the city will be required to investigate, locate and map burial sites. Then it must get a court- approved plan to remove and reinter the remains at another cemetery, most likely G.A.R. Haensly, attorney for the complainants, said the city and its partners could face "huge costs" as it works to prepare the property. "If the city runs into 100 bodies, 75 bodies, it will be an extremely expensive undertaking for them," he said. "Our concern is that the city will disturb the site and not be able to follow through." McDonald called the concerns "hyperbole." Significant archaeological work has already been completed, he said, and the senior center and youth center have agreed to bear those costs under the terms of their leases with the city, he said. You can contact Herald writer Pam McGaffin by e-mail at: mcgaffin@heraldnet.com or by phone at 425-339-3429 Comments: newmedia@heraldnet.com HeraldNet - Snohomish County's Online Information Source http://heraldnet.com/ Local News http://www.heraldnet.com/localnews HeraldNet Opinion http://heraldnet.com/opinion/ HeraldNet Opinion - Letters http://heraldnet.com/opinion/letters/ Copyright (c) 1998 The Daily Herald Co., Everett, Wash. http://www.heraldnet.com/about/legal.htm

A distant cousin of mine in Almont, MI sent me the address and phone number for Karen L. Barnett. Karen has submitted at least part of the Hartsock lineage to the Ancestral Files at the LDS Family History Library. Does anyone know this person or how I could contact her? Sincerely, Clara Reese cereese@ix.netcom.com >

There's more to it than that, Evelyn. This all started years ago by a few greedy people in Snohomish and they have won, they have shown us the law can be broken and those responsible can avoid prosecution. Such a travesty. Thank you for letting us know. Our little committee seems to be badly scattered. We should have been able to organize and raise money to help the Moores. I'm sorry for that. Norma JOHuffER@aol.com wrote: > > A very dishearted Carolynn Crawford called me about 1 pm today to let me know > that the judge had decided for the city. I asked if there was a possibility > of appeal, but the Moore's funds are depleted to present this case, and she > didn't know what her parents would decide to do. This is a sad day for > Snohomish history also. The message the judge sent was that nothing is sacred > and those who pioneered and cultivated a town are not important, and Snohomish > History will be lost to anyone who comes along and asks about the early > beginnings of the area. > > This kind of decision will mean open season on any property that is deemed > more valuable to build on than to preserve. It is a lesson to me that nothing > is permanent, nothing is sacred. And to think that cemeteries get big bucks > nowadays for planting people perpetually! I guess another message is for > families, let the buyer beware. Evelyn

That is absolutely the worst news of the year! I wonder if Carolyn Crawford and her parents will appeal? I've been afraid this was going to happen since there has been so little interest in this cemetery and what we do hear from the fringes is that they just don't care. CC - where are you? Norma John Wm Sloniker wrote: > > Sorry, > > I heard a 20 second blip on KING-TV that the judge said it was OK > to build on the cemetery in Snohomish. > > John > > *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====* > # John Wm Sloniker <johnwms@serv.net> Seattle, WA # > # (206) 789-6663 7323 - 19th Ave NW 98117-5612 # > *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*

Sorry, I heard a 20 second blip on KING-TV that the judge said it was OK to build on the cemetery in Snohomish. John *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====* # John Wm Sloniker <johnwms@serv.net> Seattle, WA # # (206) 789-6663 7323 - 19th Ave NW 98117-5612 # *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*

A very dishearted Carolynn Crawford called me about 1 pm today to let me know that the judge had decided for the city. I asked if there was a possibility of appeal, but the Moore's funds are depleted to present this case, and she didn't know what her parents would decide to do. This is a sad day for Snohomish history also. The message the judge sent was that nothing is sacred and those who pioneered and cultivated a town are not important, and Snohomish History will be lost to anyone who comes along and asks about the early beginnings of the area. This kind of decision will mean open season on any property that is deemed more valuable to build on than to preserve. It is a lesson to me that nothing is permanent, nothing is sacred. And to think that cemeteries get big bucks nowadays for planting people perpetually! I guess another message is for families, let the buyer beware. Evelyn

Hello folks - I just visited the Tacoma Public Library web site: http://www.tpl.lib.wa.us I see that they have made many, many changes, including a huge overhaul in the appearance of the site. I will be updating links that I have to the site, but wanted to be sure to tell all of you so you could visit the site, particularly the page for the Northwest Room and the Genealogy Collection: http://www.tpl.lib.wa.us/v2/NWRoom/nwroom.htm http://www.tpl.lib.wa.us/v2/NWRoom/genea.htm Have fun, Cyndi ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Cyndi Howells Puyallup, Washington PSRoots List Poohbah cyndihow@oz.net PSRoots-L Mailing List http://www.rootsweb.com/~watpcgs/psroots.htm To subscribe or unsubscribe from the list, send a NEW e-mail message to: PSRoots-L-request@rootsweb.com or PSRoots-D-request@rootsweb.com (for digest mode) with only one word in the body: subscribe or: unsubscribe

At 02:13 PM 10/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >Cyndi, > >Welcome back to the list... hope your weekend talks went well!! > >Cheryl Thank you Cheryl! Yes, the seminars were a lot of fun. There were 215 people in Portland and about 40 in Astoria. They loved my bunny slippers in Portland and Evan was a big hit in both places. There are lots of Grandmas giving out cookies at those meetings, so he was in heaven. Thanks for watching over the list over the weekend. I'm glad that our eGroups problem is resolved. I'm working through a backlog of 450 e-mail messages now, so I'd better go. For those of you who have tried to use the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) web site, I have just figured out how to view the land patent graphic files, so I'll share that info here as soon as I write it up. Talk with you all soon, Cyndi

At 10:28 PM 10/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >get off this list you crooks The people who sent the e-mail you are referring to are NOT on this list. They did not read your message. However, the other 250 PSRoots subscribers did get a copy. To everyone - do NOT reply to spam messages, particularly any received via a mailing list. The List Owner will take care of the problem for you. Cyndi

Cyndi, Welcome back to the list... hope your weekend talks went well!! Cheryl

I wish I could make the trip up there John, but can't. Am hoping someone will post the results asap. Evelyn at JOHuffER@aol.com

Monday the 26th is the date for the judges decision for Snohomish Cem. I hope someone can be there to report the "good" news quickly. John *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====* # John Wm Sloniker <johnwms@serv.net> Seattle, WA # # (206) 789-6663 7323 - 19th Ave NW 98117-5612 # *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*

On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Kit Niemann wrote: > Hi List, > > I have been on this list only a short time. I just want to tell you all > what a wonderful experience it is for me. Such a wealth of information and > great contacts come from this list. Genealogy is a splendid and intriguing > way to study history, too. > > Just wanted to say thanks, to all of you. > Kit "study history, too" ?? Kit, when I first started, someone told me that, though many call the results genealogy, I should think in terms of Family History. Since I already enjoyed the study of history, that was no problem. It just encouraged me to expand my studies more for places not called for while in classes. In fact, the study of religious movements to this country became a big part of my research and helped me to know where my ancestors might be because of their religious connections. I now understand why they lived in the places they did, and why they wouldn't talk about some things. That's another part of Family History. John *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====* # John Wm Sloniker <johnwms@serv.net> Seattle, WA # # (206) 789-6663 7323 - 19th Ave NW 98117-5612 # *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*

On Sun, 25 Oct 1998 LorieW1961@aol.com wrote: > Is that Washington DC or Washington State? > It's not DC. We have a big state out here. <g> Happy to help anytime, John You wanna discuss it? Try: INDIAN-HERITAGE discussion list *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====* # John Wm Sloniker <johnwms@serv.net> Seattle, WA # # (206) 789-6663 7323 - 19th Ave NW 98117-5612 # *====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*====*

Hi List, I have been on this list only a short time. I just want to tell you all what a wonderful experience it is for me. Such a wealth of information and great contacts come from this list. Genealogy is a splendid and intriguing way to study history, too. Just wanted to say thanks, to all of you. Kit

I am hoping that someone out there has access to the Pierce County Marriage Records and could look up the following for me: Anna Katheryne HOPKINS married Justin Betts (Jess) LEWIS 21 Apr 1909 at Tacoma, WA I would be especially interested to know if Anna's place of birth is given. Thanks for any help. Peggy Kolm kolm@alum.mit.edu

Allen: Tacoma-Pierce Co Gen Society has a family line form on: http://www.rootsweb.com/~watpcgs/famline.htm