Mr. Fraley wants to name my love for my country as drivel? Well, I still have no use for tories - ancient or modern. They lost the War he is studying about. And they will lose this one. June On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:19:04 -0800 Kevin Fraley <Swimref@cmc.net> writes: >Why is this extremist political drivel on our genealogy list? This is >not >patriotic, it is hateful propaganda, and has no place here. > >Kevin Fraley > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Dear Sir: This morning around 5:30 a.m. in praying for my country on this, Armistice Day, I opened my Bible to Isaiah 53 and there is the spiritual depiction of our soldiers. My mind went back to Alvin York and his great victory where he was showered with great honors in New York. Of course, He fought under the powerful Arm of the Lord God of Hosts, Master of Armies, Lord of Sabaoth, and God gave us the victory over and over again. You have a thankful heir in this poor soldier of the cross, for had it not been for you and your predecessors, I wouldn't be able to live in such comfort. God blesses fighting men! Will you fight again? Will you fight our current wars? I am. Perhaps you heard where in Boston, Massachusetts day before yesterday the wicked and corrupt politicians forbid the veterans are forbidden to carry their guns in the parade. Who will rise up for me against evildoers? Lexington. Concord. Their God will thunder from heaven upon them, for He has heard my cries. June Griffin On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:09:19 -0800 "Donald Brown" <benplan@earthlink.net> writes: >It really hurts to know that so many of our current baby boomers have >so >little respect for the generation that served in WW II and the Korean >War > the first war we fought with no goal of victory). It is a sad result >of >the ignorance of our teachers who must always be politically correct >and >our society that refuses to learn from prior mistakes. The only thing >for >sure is that we repeat them in every generation. I have nothing but >contempt for a government and the public that sends our youth to war >without >a firm goal in mind. War is always a failure and in our case caused by >the >lack of voters intelligence when they send people to congress who know >so >little about history. > >I served in the two conflicts mentioned above and am proud of the men >I >served with and will never regret it. We had all kinds but always >respected >the other guys opinion even a Christian Conservative. They bled and >died >just like the rest of us. > >DMB > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

I read with interest the following article apparently by a student writer at Mariner H.S. My eyes and mind focused on something that struck my vibes. I wonder if it strikes yours, also. "From birth until kindergarten, children are t o l d that they are individuals, that no one on Earth is just like them, that the are just as unique as their fingerprints. Then, suddenly - WHAM." (The spacing of the word told was mine, not the articles. But it occurred to me that perhaps we are sending a wrong message to kids when we imprint the idea that we "are individuals, that no one on Earth is just like them, that they are just as unique as their fingerprints. Then, suddenly - WHAM." I understand the bases for the idea, but carried to extreme, could cause some problems, which apparently the writer has encountered and observed with Life around him, and in his World. If this idea of uniqueness fostors selfishness, egotism, greed, then it is NOT a very good lesson in life, however if it is a healthy attitude that is promoted to recognize values in each individual then it could be quite positive for attitude, and social exchange and appreciation. You be the judge: Ref.The Herald Tues, Nov 10, 1998 http://www.heraldnet.com/edge Section D pp 1D, 2D edge Section QUOTED AS FOLLOWS: Stereotype strangeness starts early, gets worse By Timothy Goddard edge writers/Mariner H.S. Humans are funny people with a bizarre tendency to put others into boxes. These boxes are an odd bunch, too. They morph and change shapes and sizes depending on where and what the people they envelope happen to be. These boxes are called- in case you haven't figured it out yet - stereotypes. Stereotypes in general are a bad idea. From birth until kindergarten, children are told that they are individuals, that no one on Earth is just like them, that they are just as unique as their fingerprints. Then, suddenly- WHAM. School hits and everything your parents ever taught you in hopes of helping your self-esteem flies out the schoolhouse window to a painful death on the concrete below. It does start out small. At first, it's just a simple congregation into "boys" and "girls." This is not a bad thing. In fact, it's a rather good thing that can prevent a whole lot of embarrassment at restrooms, department stores, and health classes. Of course, as it is with all stereotypes, it is taken a bit too far, giving us words like "cooties," "icky" and "eeeeww." Then elementary school moves along and even more of these silly little categories spring into view. Crude versions of the "jock" and "nerd" begin to emerge, usually coming out of a combination of advanced classes and physical education (Remember that? Back when the best sports were all named after movies and used mats and those big foam balls?). Soon middle school comes along, refining the categories a bit more. Not only are the "jock" and "nerd" more clearly defined, but teh "popular" group is put into place. No one seems to be quite sure how this happens. Mostly, it springs from the athletic types, with a few non-athletic "cool" girls and guys thrown in for good measure. Other subgroups, such as the "ganstas" and "loners," develop around this time. Next, high school comes along. This is a funny time, when people's stereotypes switch around, change, split off or even disappear. As extracurricular activities other than sports take bigger parts of students' lives, terms like "band geek," "choir nerd" and "drama rat" pop up, while other subgroups continue to appear. "Skate," "stoner," "freak." "overachiever," "cheerleader," etc., get stamped on people"s forheads and right hands, then erased, changed, and so on. College and/or work soon follows, and stereotypes get stranger and more complex.(sic.)rade, gender, class, appearance, age, musical tastes, marital status, place of employment and many other factors get swirled around, mixed up, baked, fried and boiled into another heap of stereotypes. These stereotypes are more important, affecting sholarships, potential jobs, raises, promotions and even (gasp)invitations to join exclusive clubs. When one steps back and sees the origin and evelotion of stereotypes, one sees the overall strangeness of them. Like so many things in American culture, it begins in kindergarten. (???How about the home, the parent's values, attitudes, prejudices, steretyping, examples, positiveness, negativeness, l a n g u a g e, body l a n g u a g e and other utterance, expectations long before any sort of school begins. - CC.). Whydoes this happen then, if it is such a silly idea? Because humans are silly people. You don't see other animals acting crazy, the males belching and spitting, the females in perpetual fear that another female will have the sameplumage or fur. It makes people comfortable to be ablt to generalize others. It is also rather cumbersome, when referring to a group of people with shared interests to say, for instance, "people-who-enjoy-participating-in-sports," so the word "jock" is used instead. But that brings on connotations of stupidity, laziness and arrogance. While this may certainly be the norm for some "jocks," it is definitely not the way it is for everyone. Therein lies the main problem with stereotyping- all that feel-good gunk that parents tell their kids is actually true. Peopl's personalities - a combination of genes and experiences - are never the same. This messes up the whole stereotyping idea. All men don't spit and scratch. All women don't obsess over their appearance. And, more pointed, all high school dropouts aren"t quitters who have given up on their lives. (Bill Gates comes to mind among us, for example. Another stereotyped individual, but he hasn't done too badly. He is just being contested by those who have not done as well in Life. - CC.). Just as everyone's twisted swirls of DNA are utterly different from everyone else's, so is the environment they grew up in, their outlook on life, their current environment, their values, their goals, and so on. Though someone may have one or two of the characteristics of a stereotype, there is no way in the world that they fit all of them. END OF QUOTE FROM THE HERALD edge article. & Comment: Bravo Bravo! That last paragraph says a lot in a few words of wisdom. And a good part of that environment, values, goals, and individuality lies in the parental guidance that was around them from that first breath of Life. Neglect breeds neglect. Positive values can and often does breed positive values and character in individuals. However, in some instances the brain takes over and where neglect breeds, or other negative values and circumstances prevail - GOOD PREVAILS and circumvents attitude toward positive values and successes that are examples we admire in those People. This writer, has done much toward telling us how it is and the pressures experience by young people. He also tells much about adults and parents in his own way. His final para is quite good, and an exposition of something that should be of interest to parents, and parents-to-be toward establish values, goals, attitudes, expectations of mannerisms very early before school begins and afterward. Even animals establish that early in their young for survival throughout their life span. Can you imagine the pressures above that Kenneth Ervin, the teenage sailor that was suddenly thrown into at Pearl Harbor, when -WHAM & BLOOEY! bombs from Japanese planes started dropping around him only 200 yards away. How much did all the stereotyping of the day mean to him in those moments of Life or Death? (Ref. my quote of the article on WWII vet Kenneth Ervin, Navy teen, now age 75 -article by Kristi O'Harran, of Kristi's Notebook, The Herald dated same as for the article above.). Carroll of Snohomish. * * * 30 * * * ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

DMB, It is good that you pointed the problem out. There seems to be little respect for those that fought and died so that we might enjoy our "cushy" lifestyle. May the young ones never have to risk *their* lives for freedom! Janis

The pix of the young sailor looks to be age 10 - 15, but he is actually age 18; very young looking. Here is his story: 2B Tuesday, Nov 10, 1009 The Herald, Kristi's Notebook Kristi O'Harran (Herald Writer QUOTED AS FOLLOWS: WWII veteran keeps up his march to be of service PIX captioned - Kenneth Ervin, shown here as an 18-year-old sailor, continues his service in the VFW (He appears with a very young face, smile with teeth showing, in Summer dress White navy uniform-CC.). There's a sad image of Kenneth Ervin, Pearl Harbor survivor, marching in a patriotic parade. He's all alone. He's the only World War II veteran walking amid floats and bands. His hand shake with Parkinson's disease. His thin legs are exhausted long before the end of the route. His back remains arched with pride. It's a pity to report he's been the only military participant in many such events. Ervin, the past all-American commander of Veterans of Foreighn Wars Post 2100 in Everett, wishes younger veterans would join the organization. At one time, the post was the 32nd largest in the United States, Ervin said. "Us older guys are trying to get the kids to join," Ervin said. "There lots of work to be done, lots of community service." It has been more than 50 years since Apprentice Seaman Ervin, armed only with a night stick, was on watch duty in Pearl Harbor. A self-described dumb kid, he admits to being scared to death when Japanese planes on the morning of Dec. 7, 1941. "I was within 200 yeards of the bombing," he said. "They slaughtered the hell out of us." Ervin, 75, went on to serve nine years in the Navy, ending his stint assigned to a supply inventory team on the USS Missouri, the battleship on which the Japanese signed the surrender. He was aboard the USS Idaho during the height of the war, seeing action in the Marshall Islands, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Perhaps you've heard of those battles. Ervin fears children today are more in tune with Baby Face Nelson or John Dillinger. "They're interested in jet planes," Ervin said. "They want to know about rockets to the moon." He wants children to know about the sacrifices of brave military men and women who served our country. He has spoken in schools to impart that message, bu worries now that the Parkinson's tremble in his hands will frighten a young audience. He keeps extensive visual aids stored in an aging suitcase between engagements. "When I talk to kids, I ask them what they think a warrior with eight medals would look like," he said, showing them a picture of a baby-faced lad in a Navy cap. "They say, 'That's a little boy,' and I tell them that's who fights wars." After World War II, Ervin married his wife of 51 years, Phyllis. She worked for Sears in Seattle when a friend introduced them. Their four children all live near their Everett home where their father owned a sign painting shop. Besides being one of perhaps a dozen active Everett VFW members, Ervin helps the Central Memorial Day Committee plan patriotic celebrations, is a member of the Navy League and is the past commander of the Military Order of the Cooties, an honorary group of the VFW whose members visit hospitals "to keep those smiling in beds of white." He has been busy with another project recently. Ervin and his sons Skip and Robert and his grandson Philip, 15, have built a 3-foot-long model of the USS Missouri. The detailed replica is delicate, with turrets that turn. The family would like it displayed around town, and is interested in hearing ideas about a great place to pose the ship. If you have a suggestion, call me at 425-339-3451. If you would like to visit with Ervin, He'll be attending a Veterans"s Day ham dinner at 6:30 p.m. Wednesday at the VFW hall, 2711 Oakes Ave. in Everett. Tickets are $7.50. The public event is sponsored by the VFW and American Legion. Ervin suggested the dinner would be a great time for any veteran who might be interested in joining the Legion or VFW to drop by, enjoy the meal and visit with members. "I don't know why the Vietnam vets aren"t interested in joining," Ervin said. "We have some good workers at Post 2100." The post sponsors Scouts, Little League and blwling teams. Maybe a new member would like to help Ervin with another project. He makes small flags that serve a specific purpose. When he's out and about, he's apt to ask a child if they can recite the Pledge of Allegiance. If they can, they get a flag. If they can't, I bet they wonder who the older gentleman is and what his message is. If they take the time to listen, they'll learn a little bit about patriotism. "You've got to be proud of serving your country," Ervin said. "We've got to keep a Pearl Harbor from happening again." To solidify his point, he'll continue working with compatriots to keep the VFW functioning. He'll spread his message about warriors and heroes to school children. He'll wear his uniform in parades to represent elderly vets who just can't make the march, even if he's the only military presence in the procession. When I shook his hand farewell, I felt overwhelmingly honored to meet such an inspiring World War II veteran. "I'm proud of my past and of those who preceded me," Ervin said. "I'm just trying to carry on." Kristi's Notebook appears Tuesdays and Fridays. If you have an idea for her call 425-339-3451 or send information to o'harran@heraldnet.com END OF ARTICLE QUOTED FROM THE HERALD, EVERETT, WA. Carroll of Snohomish. * * * 30 * * * ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

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It really hurts to know that so many of our current baby boomers have so little respect for the generation that served in WW II and the Korean War the first war we fought with no goal of victory). It is a sad result of the ignorance of our teachers who must always be politically correct and our society that refuses to learn from prior mistakes. The only thing for sure is that we repeat them in every generation. I have nothing but contempt for a government and the public that sends our youth to war without a firm goal in mind. War is always a failure and in our case caused by the lack of voters intelligence when they send people to congress who know so little about history. I served in the two conflicts mentioned above and am proud of the men I served with and will never regret it. We had all kinds but always respected the other guys opinion even a Christian Conservative. They bled and died just like the rest of us. DMB

Why is this extremist political drivel on our genealogy list? This is not patriotic, it is hateful propaganda, and has no place here. Kevin Fraley

Dear Kristi: I thought I would relate a current Cold War episode in my own life, since it is the eve of Veterans' Day. In, I believe it was 1968 - at any rate it was November 11 and was proclaimed Moratorium Day. This was the day when untold thousands of university students marched on Washington to protest the war, men whose are now in places of political power and whose wickedness goes up to the Lord God of Hosts, the Lord's military name. I can't tell you how grieved I was at this horrible condition. Being from Tennessee, I couldn't imagine such treason. This was the height of the student revolt and revolt it was. Campuses and downtown sections burned and army tanks were not an uncommon sight, even in southern Chattanooga, Tennessee. Tears were on the face of every real patriot. I was Staff Assistant to the Director of Maintenance at the University of Kentucky. As such, I saw the filth that the maintenance men brought from the university presses and from the filthy imported radicals who travelled all over this country. These Bolsheviks and their political science professors were the crowning joy of Communism and the university refused to act against them; indeed, the President of the University was from Berkeley. Need I say more? In my neighborhood lived a few God-fearing patriots, including my family. It was so horrendous that we were the only ones brave enough to fly the American flag, but fly it, we did. We wanted to do something to counter the overthrow of our American heritage. So we decided the best thing we could do was to buy a full-page ad in the Lexington Herald. We had an artist from IBM where my husband worked sketch a picture of Iwo Jima and under it we wrote: WE WANT PEACE, TOO, BUT HONORABLY! We began to try to get up the $700.00 necessary for the ad, and this was quite a feat in that day among middle-class people who lived from one payday to the next. We went everywhere that patriotism was proclaimed. One part of this includes my encounter with a patriotic banker. He was very enthusiastic about this project and made a machine copy to take to the Oleika Shrine where he was a member. He was sure he would get a lot of support, probably enough to put us over the top. The next morning when I went to pick up the collection he had gathered, the secretary barred the way to his office and told me that he didn't want anything more to do with this project. I was amazed, to say the least. Then the day of the parade, November 11, and it was a grand parade - everyone turned out, we went to the place where we were sure we would find real patriots. The American Legion. We went into the front part and saw a bar set up and men and women coming in from the parade quite jovial. I went from one to another and told them of our love for the country and what was going on with the student revolt and begged them to give us some help in getting this notice in the paper. One after another refused and the reply was: "Look, I just have another money for one more drink." I cannot tell you how heartsick we were at this response. My patriotic friend, disgusted but not disheartened, went back that night when they were all drunk at a party, and collected a few more dollars. All we could muster was around $375.00. I went to the Editor of the Lexington Herald, Fred Wachs, and told him what we had done and asked him to print whatever space this would purchase, a half a page or whatever. He took the money and our master copy and disappeared. But hear the faithfulness of the Lord to His patriotic children! The next day to our glad surprise, the whole page was printed! I phoned the Herald and asked them what happened. And all glory be to God, we were told that the men who ran the presses had made up the difference in the collection themselves! How my heart was warmed with this news and such hope came into me that I cannot express, even after these long years of fighting the Cold War at home. It is still amazing to consider that there are behind the scenes working people who love our country and who we don't see - and who the tyrants in Washington fear - men and women who would still give their life for the love of this beloved country. I despise and abhor and hate with a Godly hatred traitors to this nation. I am on firm ground because David said, I have hated thine enemies with a perfect hatred. How could I call myself an American and feel otherwise. What spirit would possess me if I should be a traitor and not stand for my country when men gave their life-blood for God and country that I might sit in a beautiful home, with climate control and type to unseen patriots, without fear of someone breaking down my door. The Bill of Rights that they purchased for my right to bear arms, to speak my mind freely, to call in question the actions of political enemies of my country and to proclaim the Gospel that the circuit riders and Pilgrims before them under the Authority and Auspices of the Saviour am commanded to do. Will God save my beloved country? He will spare a precious and God-fearing remnant. For these I pray for forgiveness, for their complacency, for their ignorance of our history, for their neglect of reading their Bible due to heavy loads, for their bondage to fear and intimidation before higher-learning infidels who live off the fruit of our labors and clergy whose deserved destiny would be the cold plains of Siberia. After all, when I saw the rewards of II Chron. 7:14, I abandoned all my sins, threw out ihe TV, put on some decent clothes, and straightened myself out, after having begged the Saviour to forgive me of my wanderings from the God of our Fathers. He is duty bound to bring to pass the healing of my country, because His Son, Jesus, sealed that Covenant with His own Blood. Anyone who doesn't love their country more than their sins doesn't deserve this liberty. June Griffin Representative of God and the Bible in Tennessee Inaugural Recipient of the Bill of Rights Award On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:42:51 -0800 clarkw7iml@juno.com (Carroll H Clark) writes: >The pix of the young sailor looks to be age 10 - 15, but he is >actually age 18; very young looking. Here is his story: >2B Tuesday, Nov 10, 1009 The Herald, Kristi's Notebook Kristi >O'Harran (Herald Writer QUOTED AS FOLLOWS: >WWII veteran keeps up his march to be of service > PIX captioned - Kenneth Ervin, shown here as an 18-year-old sailor, >continues his service in the VFW (He appears with a very young face, >smile with teeth showing, in Summer dress White navy uniform-CC.). > There's a sad image of Kenneth Ervin, Pearl Harbor survivor, marching >in a patriotic parade. > He's all alone. He's the only World War II veteran walking amid >floats and bands. His hand shake with Parkinson's disease. His thin >legs are exhausted long before the end of the route. > His back remains arched with pride. > It's a pity to report he's been the only military participant in >many such events. > Ervin, the past all-American commander of Veterans of Foreighn Wars >Post 2100 in Everett, wishes younger veterans would join the >organization. At one time, the post was the 32nd largest in the >United States, Ervin said. > "Us older guys are trying to get the kids to join," Ervin said. > "There lots of work to be done, lots of community service." > It has been more than 50 years since Apprentice Seaman Ervin, >armed only with a night stick, was on watch duty in Pearl Harbor. A >self-described dumb kid, he admits to being scared to death when >Japanese planes on the morning of Dec. 7, 1941. > "I was within 200 yeards of the bombing," he said. "They >slaughtered the hell out of us." > Ervin, 75, went on to serve nine years in the Navy, ending his >stint assigned to a supply inventory team on the USS Missouri, the >battleship on which the Japanese signed the surrender. He was aboard >the USS Idaho during the height of the war, seeing action in the >Marshall Islands, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. > Perhaps you've heard of those battles. Ervin fears children today >are more in tune with Baby Face Nelson or John Dillinger. > "They're interested in jet planes," Ervin said. "They want to know >about rockets to the moon." > He wants children to know about the sacrifices of brave military >men and women who served our country. He has spoken in schools to >impart that message, bu worries now that the Parkinson's tremble in >his hands will frighten a young audience. He keeps extensive visual >aids stored in an aging suitcase between engagements. > "When I talk to kids, I ask them what they think a warrior with >eight medals would look like," he said, showing them a picture of a >baby-faced lad in a Navy cap. > "They say, 'That's a little boy,' and I tell them that's who fights >wars." > After World War II, Ervin married his wife of 51 years, Phyllis. >She worked for Sears in Seattle when a friend introduced them. Their >four children all live near their Everett home where their father >owned a sign painting shop. > Besides being one of perhaps a dozen active Everett VFW members, >Ervin helps the Central Memorial Day Committee plan patriotic >celebrations, is a member of the Navy League and is the past commander >of the Military Order of the Cooties, an honorary group of the VFW >whose members visit hospitals "to keep those smiling in beds of >white." > He has been busy with another project recently. Ervin and his sons >Skip and Robert and his grandson Philip, 15, have built a 3-foot-long >model of the USS Missouri. > The detailed replica is delicate, with turrets that turn. The >family would like it displayed around town, and is interested in >hearing ideas about a great place to pose the ship. If you have a >suggestion, call me at 425-339-3451. > If you would like to visit with Ervin, He'll be attending a >Veterans"s Day ham dinner at 6:30 p.m. Wednesday at the VFW hall, 2711 >Oakes Ave. in Everett. Tickets are $7.50. The public event is >sponsored by the VFW and American Legion. > Ervin suggested the dinner would be a great time for any veteran who >might be interested in joining the Legion or VFW to drop by, enjoy the >meal and visit with members. > "I don't know why the Vietnam vets aren"t interested in joining," >Ervin said. "We have some good workers at Post 2100." > The post sponsors Scouts, Little League and blwling teams. > Maybe a new member would like to help Ervin with another project. >He makes small flags that serve a specific purpose. When he's out and >about, he's apt to ask a child if they can recite the Pledge of >Allegiance. > If they can, they get a flag. If they can't, I bet they wonder who >the older gentleman is and what his message is. > If they take the time to listen, they'll learn a little bit about >patriotism. > "You've got to be proud of serving your country," Ervin said. >"We've got to keep a Pearl Harbor from happening again." > To solidify his point, he'll continue working with compatriots to >keep the VFW functioning. He'll spread his message about warriors and >heroes to school children. He'll wear his uniform in parades to >represent elderly vets who just can't make the march, even if he's the >only military presence in the procession. > When I shook his hand farewell, I felt overwhelmingly honored to >meet such an inspiring World War II veteran. > "I'm proud of my past and of those who preceded me," Ervin said. >"I'm just trying to carry on." >

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 Treehistn@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/10/98 7:17:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, > johnwms@serv.net writes: > > << > If it looks the same, just be prepared to show your research notes. The > copyright law says "don't copy". It doesn't say you can't have the same > subject or the same information. If you include pictures, you must go to > take your own picture, or draw your own. Just don't copy theirs. >> > > Copyright laws cannot restrict the reporting of public domain data. But they > can and do restrict "copying" the presentation of said data. The individual's > presentation is the material copyrighted. In some cases, it can also be the > research work. The laws are not always clear. Case in point, consider one of > the AIS census index books that are over a thousand pages long. One could > argue that if you scanned the pages of the index, extracted just the index > data itself, presented the data on a CD or a different book, that it would not > violate copy laws because you changed the presentation. But there are > portions of the laws that cover the researcher when it is obvious that they > did not research the materials themselves. (As you said) > > Very gray areas!!! > > Cheryl Hawley Cheryl, I had forgotten that portion of the law. Here is more gray area. I seem to recall that you can limit your research to their work or publication, then state what they have said in a different manner for a different presentation. Or, better yet, add your comments to what they have said. The objective is, show that you have put some added effort into what you present. Question is, was it enough "added" effort? \\\\/// \\- - -// (@ @) John in Seattle -----------o00o-(_)-o00o-------------------- A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. -----------------------0ooo----------------- ooo0 ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_ / \_ ) John in Seattle

Hello all, I want to thank Caroll Clark for his e-mail on the 20/20 segment and especially for his reminding us that tomorrow is Veteran's Day. We should all remember those who gave their lives so the rest of us could remain free. I, for one, am going to the Veteran's cemetery in Port Orchard to remember by placing flowers at the monument there. Regarding the 20/20 episode. I was in Everett Sunday and Monday again on business (getting SnoCem information for our web site) and I missed all television. Did anyone out there record the segment? If so, I'd sure like to receive a copy for our Washington State Cemetery Association. It would be great to amass a library of these things. I have been in touch with a production company about a documentary on cemeteries in Washington state and the direction they are headed. A small matter of financing would be the biggest hinderance at this time. If you can, take a moment and view our web site <http://www.rootsweb.com/~wapsgs/>. We are asking people to join our cause to care and protect our old or abandoned cemeteries. Watch for an article in the near future on this subject. Andi

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 JLoehde@aol.com wrote: > Question. Now that I have become lazy through the use of the web for > info, isn't the problem that we wouldn't be able to put in census, > birth and death, (ceme records) if this was passed? Jean > Sorry. The lazy people I was refering to are those that want to sell you CD's containg copies from others research work. As for what is in the Archives (NARA records) and other public records, they are there to be used by anyone, and that's covered by another law. However, if someone collects some of that info to put on a web page, and then you copy that web page to put on a CD to sell then you are breaking their copyright protection. That web page is there for you to use for your files but not to copy and sell for a profit. The copyright law is to protect the work and efforts of those that have done the research work for their publication. If you do your own research then you can put that on a CD even if it matches or looks the same as theirs. If it looks the same, just be prepared to show your research notes. The copyright law says "don't copy". It doesn't say you can't have the same subject or the same information. If you include pictures, you must go to take your own picture, or draw your own. Just don't copy theirs. \\\\/// \\- - -// (@ @) John in Seattle -----------o00o-(_)-o00o-------------------- A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. -----------------------0ooo----------------- ooo0 ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_ / \_ )

In a message dated 11/10/98 7:17:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, johnwms@serv.net writes: << If it looks the same, just be prepared to show your research notes. The copyright law says "don't copy". It doesn't say you can't have the same subject or the same information. If you include pictures, you must go to take your own picture, or draw your own. Just don't copy theirs. >> Copyright laws cannot restrict the reporting of public domain data. But they can and do restrict "copying" the presentation of said data. The individual's presentation is the material copyrighted. In some cases, it can also be the research work. The laws are not always clear. Case in point, consider one of the AIS census index books that are over a thousand pages long. One could argue that if you scanned the pages of the index, extracted just the index data itself, presented the data on a CD or a different book, that it would not violate copy laws because you changed the presentation. But there are portions of the laws that cover the researcher when it is obvious that they did not research the materials themselves. (As you said) Very gray areas!!! Cheryl Hawley

It Is! ... I believe there was an article recently about HALBERTS/NUMA in EASTMANS GENEALOGICAL NEWSLETTER Dick S. NellJune@aol.com wrote: > > We got a mailing from a place called : > > U.S. Information Bureau, NUMA > Washington, D.C. > > Tthe letter said: "We have a book for you called 'The Snodgrasses of the > Civil War.' Is this another one of those from Halbert's, with a new name? > And besides that, the book costs $49.95. And who is their "noted Civil War > genealogist Sherry Harris?" And this is the part that sounds like Halbert's: > "You'll also receive an up-to-date listing of virtually every household tht > shares our name in the United States. You are listed in this important > section." > > Information, please. > > Nell -- RESEARCHING: SCHWEISS, MEIER, SCHMITT, MEHLTRATER, STADTHER Visit my Home Page .... http://home.switchboard.com/daswamp Also be sure to see these: Millenia Corp. Legacy Family Tree ... http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/ GENSERV ... http://www.genserv.com/ The Genealogy Help Network ... http://ghn.genealogy.org

I wish to {{{all of you}}} who watched 20/20 on the BOOBTOOB Sun eve. & witnessed the seg on CEMETERIES in the nation. What }:> is things are being done to cemeteries, cemetery remains, and the families of the people who are the victims of such things happening to cemeteries these days, and nights! Desecration of cemeteries, and the remains of the loved ones who are supposed to be buried in a redeeming way, with the love, and the celebrations of persons lives on Earth with the perpetual care that is said to go with it, AIN'T NECESSARILY SO, so goes the musical words we are familiar with. We tend to :-( when we hear or read of such things, and especially so when they happen down the street or between KS and Snohomish for instance.) but :-( s don't do much so it appears that if we want to get any action we must ACT, and act asap. Wherein, in this State of WA. we have a place to do something if we wish - the WSCA, WA. ST. CEM. ASSN. contact Andrea D. MacDonald, FKA ( fondly known as) Andi. Her e-mail addr is andimac@oz.net for those who may not use the web for their e-mail, or http://www.rootsweb.com?~wapsgs/ who do or wish to see the website. Tomorrow is Veterans Day in America, Remembrance Day in Canada, our friends a short distance from us. It is a day that may or may not pass by us w/o recognition of the many young men and women, and those of more advanced age who gave their lives so that our countries could survive the threats that were put upon us, and for which we had to pay the supreme price. Those who lost loved ones, never forget, nor neglect those who didn't return, but those who did, also certainly deserved the recognition and the honor of having served in ALL of the conflicts for our nations. We may, in our busy schedules, neglect to honor those persons who gave part or all of their lives for us, but remembering and honoring in your own way negates the act of NEGLECT. All the more reason for protecting our cemeteries from desecration. Cemeteries, such as Snohomish Cemetery, contained remains of persons who fought for our country, or were a part of the conflict whatever it might be. Lest we forget! We are reminded. Nov. 11, 1889 WA Territory became WA. State. O):-) * * * 30 * * * ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

At 07:37 PM 11/9/98 -0800, you wrote: >About a month ago I join your genealogy club. Don't I get a book or >something in the mail for my money? Bonnie Parker Bonnie - What genealogy club are you referring to? The PSRoots mailing list covers the entire western area of Washington state and there are many different genealogy societies represented here on the list. Let us know which society you are referring to and the correct representative will get back to you. Cyndi ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Cyndi Howells Puyallup, Washington PSRoots List Poohbah cyndihow@oz.net PSRoots-L Mailing List http://www.rootsweb.com/~watpcgs/psroots.htm To subscribe or unsubscribe from the list, send a NEW e-mail message to: PSRoots-L-request@rootsweb.com or PSRoots-D-request@rootsweb.com (for digest mode) with only one word in the body: subscribe or: unsubscribe

Ref. PSR-D version V98 #364 my Oysterville Query + "LOL" et al: A. Thanx a MEG. for the several responses to my query, but let me clarify it a bit more for some who wondered - I am doing this for Rosemary Peeler in Sydney, Australia who e-mailed me re: 1. I.A. Clark whom she found via a brochure to be Isaac Alonzo Clark who has been said to be one of two founders of OYSTERVILLE, WA. Rosemary and I are interested in finding out more about this Clark who had married Henrietta____, his 1) wife and Rosemary's GrtGM's' Aunt Henrietta. So, any info which any of you kind persons out there can provide on OYSTERVILLE, Isaac Alonzo Clark as one of the founders, and/or his 1)wife Henrietta____, he also had a wife 2) Sarah____. and perhaps a little on Oroville history would be greatly appreciated by Rosemary and myself. 2. Carroll Clark had kin in OYSTERVILLE, WA , according to a copy of an 1886 letter from Oregon, talking about the genealogy of my Clark Fam. Besides, many of the Fam. in and around Central City, IN. was mention of DELIA WHEELER, of Oysterville, WA TERR. as a Cousin living there circa 1886. She was there for a brief time span I would surmise from some other data I know of her. I have inquired about this before w/o success, but I shall submit it again for any possible response from someone who might run across the name among the Oysterville folk. Rosemary has been pursuing the census film for 1860- stating she has already found her Grt GM on a page previously. Thank you for any help you might extend, Rosemary Peeler, Sydney, Australia rmpeeler@real.net.au and Carroll Clark, Snohomish, WA clarkw7iml@juno.com P.S. Oh, I didn't mean to stir the caldron with my use of "LOL" but it was interesting to see all the "caustic comments" (not really!) that eminated on good ol' PSR - it was fun to read, and it brings out the fact that we are becoming more and more object of the "flack" of the technology as it unfolds, no avalanches upon us, inundating us with a barrage of "intellectual paragese" that the "newbies" don't cotton to, and the "old timers" (Codgers like myself!), don't give a d. . . . . (darned). Oh, and John Sloniker, don't part with you Library Card! We must be card carrying members of the '90s, until everything kicks in in 2K (another one of those abbreviates) when you can throw away your Safeway Club Card and whip out your plastic ( or some other media) money not worth the material it was maged on (magnetics, laser, whatever!). And John, if you think that the computer world aka cybernetics (that will be replaced by new nomenclature by 2K, so that it will become obsoleted), it taking over so that you won't be able to go to the Archives, wait til the new stuff comes out! HDTV, Digitalized Brains, - hook up your noggin with probes and all you will have to do is to T H I N K to Send and A B S O R B to Accept the new data - no screens eventually - it will all play out before you in the Theatre of Your Brains (requiring new nomenclature). John, won't that just beat the Living Heaven out of t e l e g r a p h y ? Wonder what ham radio will be like then - N O A N T E N N A E !!! LOL, whoops Hi Hi, whoops LAFFTER! O);-)=>><<% Amen! ( & wimmin ). * * * 30 * * * ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

BParker wrote: > About a month ago I join your genealogy club. Don't I get a book or > something in the mail for my money? Bonnie Parker Don't look now, but Bonnie Parker is trying to get something for nothing... Soon, her friend Clyde Barrow will also indicate he is interested in something the club has to offer. After a short period of time, Bonnie and Clyde will hold us up and take All of our money. -- Engång skall du vara en av dem som levat för längesen. - Pär Lagerkvist, Aftonland (Some day you shall be among those who lived long ago.)

About a month ago I join your genealogy club. Don't I get a book or something in the mail for my money? Bonnie Parker

At 06:13 PM 11/9/98 -0800, you wrote: >Congratulations Cyndi: Saw your spot with Brian & Karen this >morning on >"New Attitudes"........ lots of good information.... segment ran for >about >7 minutes and your push for verifying sources and using the LDS records >came through great! > >Hazel in Mount Vernon Thanks Hazel! I apprciate the feedback. Unfortunately, the beginnings of my double-chin also came through great as well. I'm not happy with this getting older thing. And being a genealogist and collector of old family photos only confirms that I know how I will look over the next 50 years.... I'm off to put the finishing touches to my outline for using search engines. I hope to see many of you tomorrow night (Tues) at the Tacoma Public Library. Details at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~watpcgs/meetings.htm Cyndi