Illegitimate... maybe, maybe not. It depends upon the religious view of the transcriber. Without getting into a religious uproar about my statement (above), Prussia (with Köningburg as capitol) was predominantly protestant (Evangelical and Lutheran). By this I mean Ostpreussen (East Prussia) and Westpreussen (West Prussia). Provinces near France, Italy, Austria and Poland would have had a Catholic influence. The Evangelical Church was the largest religious denomination in all of what we consider Prussia. The Prussians were the ones that stabilized the religious wars in the German speaking areas of Europe. Four religions were made official, Evangelical, Lutheran, Mennonite and Catholic (Roman). Now... if you were Evangelical and lived in a Catholic area, and you wanted your birth/marriage/baptism recorded in a church (and no Evangelical Church was at hand), then it was registered with the Catholic church. O.K., if your religious views did not match that of the registry and the register of the document had, then your parents were not married. With that thought in mind, then most everyone was illegitimate. The same would hold true with Catholics registering in Evangelical/Lutheran or Mennonite books... if you get my drift. As for the non-Prussian/German sounding names yes, quite possible. With the religious wars in mind, refuges such as French Huguenots, Dutch Protestants, etc. etc. etc. migrated to East and West Prussia because of religious freedom. Even the out of work ship carpenters from Italy had a hand in building the magnificent cathedrals of Prussia. The reverse migration was when Catherine the Great of Russia (originally a princess from West Prussia) invited the German farmers (those without land) to the Ukraine to farm the land the Russians either couldn't or wouldn't. Eventually, those German settlers had to convert to the Russian Orthodox church or loose everything they had.... or leave. There is so much involved with the religious registering. Googling is the best answer and my vote is that the Marquart/Marquardt girls did not provide the illegitimate births as so recorded, the items were only recorded that way because of the view of the transcriber. I will now turn it over to more knowledgeable individuals... Regards, Rollo+ =========== Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Kusc - Marquadt > If you can stand one more e-mail regarding this topic, I can tell you that > about 15 years ago, I did extensive research on my Glass line through the > Sankt Katharina Braunsberg Katholic Kirche (St. Katherine's Catholic > Church, > Braunsberg, Ostpreussen, Prussia) LDS microfilm records. It was a gold > mine > of information giving me complete family trees for my great-great > grandfather's family (though I came up completely dry for his wife!) going > back 200 years. One name that I encountered very often was "Marquart." > This name initially caught my eye because I, too, didn't think it sounded > German, and it was as far away from France as you could get in Germany. > The > main reason that I remember that name, though, is that a vast majority of > the Marquart births were marked with an "X" to denote illegitimacy, and it > made me wonder about those Marquart girls! Another name that I ran across > in those records, though only once, was the only noble birth I > encountered, > that of a child born to a von Frankenstein family. I'm sure there was no > connection to the fictional characters, though. > > -----Original Message----- > From: prussia-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prussia-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Elaine O'Neill > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 8:05 PM > To: PRUSSIA-ROOTS@rootsweb.com > Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Kusc - Marquadt > > I sent to Michigan for my Great-grandmother's death certificate. > Rather than it answering some questions it's only creating more. > Partly because of the handwriting on the original record, and partly > because of conflicting information. > > I was hoping for a definite birth location, but only got "Germany". > On well. Could be worse I guess. > > But the big questions are regarding names. On my grandfather's > marriage record from Windsor, Ontario he gives his mother's maiden > name as BRUCHESCI. I assumed there may have been a spelling error but > that the correct name would at least be something similar. But no! On > her death record her husband gives her father's name as John KUSC, and > her mother's maiden name as Tesia (?) MARQUADT. Is MARQUADT a German > name? It almost sounds a bit French to me. And how does one get > BRUCHESCI from KUSC? I have to assume that the information on the > death record is more accurate because it was provided by her husband, > rather than one of her children. > > Thanks for any input or advice. > > Elaine O'. > in the beautiful Missouri Ozarks > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I read your entry with interest. My background is Mennonite and I can trace my roots back to Russia and from there to East Prussia. I have the majority of my, and my husband's, family lines going back to the 1700's and the odd few into the 1600's. However, of late I am unable to go any further. Were records not kept further back? Also I have heard that people did not use surnames until perhaps in the 1500's or even 1600's. Would that be the problem? If you have any leads for me, please let me know, Thank you! Frieda ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Lipprandt" <rloss@bellsouth.net> To: <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Illegitimacy > > Illegitimate... maybe, maybe not. It depends upon the religious view of > the > transcriber. > > Without getting into a religious uproar about my statement (above), > Prussia > (with Köningburg as capitol) was predominantly protestant (Evangelical and > Lutheran). By this I mean Ostpreussen (East Prussia) and Westpreussen > (West > Prussia). Provinces near France, Italy, Austria and Poland would have had > a > Catholic influence. The Evangelical Church was the largest religious > denomination in all of what we consider Prussia. > > The Prussians were the ones that stabilized the religious wars in the > German > speaking areas of Europe. Four religions were made official, Evangelical, > Lutheran, Mennonite and Catholic (Roman). Now... if you were Evangelical > and > lived in a Catholic area, and you wanted your birth/marriage/baptism > recorded in a church (and no Evangelical Church was at hand), then it was > registered with the Catholic church. O.K., if your religious views did > not > match that of the registry and the register of the document had, then your > parents were not married. With that thought in mind, then most everyone > was > illegitimate. The same would hold true with Catholics registering in > Evangelical/Lutheran or Mennonite books... if you get my drift. > > As for the non-Prussian/German sounding names yes, quite possible. With > the > religious wars in mind, refuges such as French Huguenots, Dutch > Protestants, > etc. etc. etc. migrated to East and West Prussia because of religious > freedom. Even the out of work ship carpenters from Italy had a hand in > building the magnificent cathedrals of Prussia. > > The reverse migration was when Catherine the Great of Russia (originally a > princess from West Prussia) invited the German farmers (those without > land) > to the Ukraine to farm the land the Russians either couldn't or wouldn't. > Eventually, those German settlers had to convert to the Russian Orthodox > church or loose everything they had.... or leave. > > There is so much involved with the religious registering. Googling is the > best answer and my vote is that the Marquart/Marquardt girls did not > provide > the illegitimate births as so recorded, the items were only recorded that > way because of the view of the transcriber. > > I will now turn it over to more knowledgeable individuals... > > Regards, Rollo+ > =========== > > Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Kusc - Marquadt > > >> If you can stand one more e-mail regarding this topic, I can tell you >> that >> about 15 years ago, I did extensive research on my Glass line through the >> Sankt Katharina Braunsberg Katholic Kirche (St. Katherine's Catholic >> Church, >> Braunsberg, Ostpreussen, Prussia) LDS microfilm records. It was a gold >> mine >> of information giving me complete family trees for my great-great >> grandfather's family (though I came up completely dry for his wife!) >> going >> back 200 years. One name that I encountered very often was "Marquart." >> This name initially caught my eye because I, too, didn't think it sounded >> German, and it was as far away from France as you could get in Germany. >> The >> main reason that I remember that name, though, is that a vast majority of >> the Marquart births were marked with an "X" to denote illegitimacy, and >> it >> made me wonder about those Marquart girls! Another name that I ran >> across >> in those records, though only once, was the only noble birth I >> encountered, >> that of a child born to a von Frankenstein family. I'm sure there was no >> connection to the fictional characters, though. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: prussia-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:prussia-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Elaine O'Neill >> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 8:05 PM >> To: PRUSSIA-ROOTS@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Kusc - Marquadt >> >> I sent to Michigan for my Great-grandmother's death certificate. >> Rather than it answering some questions it's only creating more. >> Partly because of the handwriting on the original record, and partly >> because of conflicting information. >> >> I was hoping for a definite birth location, but only got "Germany". >> On well. Could be worse I guess. >> >> But the big questions are regarding names. On my grandfather's >> marriage record from Windsor, Ontario he gives his mother's maiden >> name as BRUCHESCI. I assumed there may have been a spelling error but >> that the correct name would at least be something similar. But no! On >> her death record her husband gives her father's name as John KUSC, and >> her mother's maiden name as Tesia (?) MARQUADT. Is MARQUADT a German >> name? It almost sounds a bit French to me. And how does one get >> BRUCHESCI from KUSC? I have to assume that the information on the >> death record is more accurate because it was provided by her husband, >> rather than one of her children. >> >> Thanks for any input or advice. >> >> Elaine O'. >> in the beautiful Missouri Ozarks >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Below are two sites that may show you some interest... This is a Canadian Mennonite site: http://www.mmhs.org/prussia/mmhsgen3.htm This site is maintained by Adalbert Geortz, very knowledgeable of Mennonite issues in East and West Prussia: http://www.grex.org/~goertz/ Regards, Rollo+ ============== Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Illegitimacy I read your entry with interest. My background is Mennonite and I can trace my roots back to Russia and from there to East Prussia. I have the majority of my, and my husband's, family lines going back to the 1700's and the odd few into the 1600's. However, of late I am unable to go any further. Were records not kept further back? Also I have heard that people did not use surnames until perhaps in the 1500's or even 1600's. Would that be the problem? If you have any leads for me, please let me know, Thank you! Frieda =========================== Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Illegitimacy > > Illegitimate... maybe, maybe not. It depends upon the religious view of > the > transcriber. > > Without getting into a religious uproar about my statement (above), > Prussia > (with Köningburg as capitol) was predominantly protestant (Evangelical and > Lutheran). By this I mean Ostpreussen (East Prussia) and Westpreussen > (West > Prussia). Provinces near France, Italy, Austria and Poland would have had > a > Catholic influence. The Evangelical Church was the largest religious > denomination in all of what we consider Prussia. > > The Prussians were the ones that stabilized the religious wars in the > German > speaking areas of Europe. Four religions were made official, Evangelical, > Lutheran, Mennonite and Catholic (Roman). Now... if you were Evangelical > and > lived in a Catholic area, and you wanted your birth/marriage/baptism > recorded in a church (and no Evangelical Church was at hand), then it was > registered with the Catholic church. O.K., if your religious views did > not > match that of the registry and the register of the document had, then your > parents were not married. With that thought in mind, then most everyone > was > illegitimate. The same would hold true with Catholics registering in > Evangelical/Lutheran or Mennonite books... if you get my drift. > > As for the non-Prussian/German sounding names yes, quite possible. With > the > religious wars in mind, refuges such as French Huguenots, Dutch > Protestants, > etc. etc. etc. migrated to East and West Prussia because of religious > freedom. Even the out of work ship carpenters from Italy had a hand in > building the magnificent cathedrals of Prussia. > > The reverse migration was when Catherine the Great of Russia (originally a > princess from West Prussia) invited the German farmers (those without > land) > to the Ukraine to farm the land the Russians either couldn't or wouldn't. > Eventually, those German settlers had to convert to the Russian Orthodox > church or loose everything they had.... or leave. > > There is so much involved with the religious registering. Googling is the > best answer and my vote is that the Marquart/Marquardt girls did not > provide > the illegitimate births as so recorded, the items were only recorded that > way because of the view of the transcriber. > > I will now turn it over to more knowledgeable individuals... > > Regards, Rollo+ > ===========

Freida, Did any of your Loewn family go to South Dakota? If so, I will give you some info on Helena Loewen Schafer, with some questions. Thanks, Jack Schafer Frieda Loewen <floewen@xplornet.com> wrote: I read your entry with interest. My background is Mennonite and I can trace my roots back to Russia and from there to East Prussia. I have the majority of my, and my husband's, family lines going back to the 1700's and the odd few into the 1600's. However, of late I am unable to go any further. Were records not kept further back? Also I have heard that people did not use surnames until perhaps in the 1500's or even 1600's. Would that be the problem? If you have any leads for me, please let me know, Thank you! Frieda ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Lipprandt" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Illegitimacy > > Illegitimate... maybe, maybe not. It depends upon the religious view of > the > transcriber. > > Without getting into a religious uproar about my statement (above), > Prussia > (with Köningburg as capitol) was predominantly protestant (Evangelical and > Lutheran). By this I mean Ostpreussen (East Prussia) and Westpreussen > (West > Prussia). Provinces near France, Italy, Austria and Poland would have had > a > Catholic influence. The Evangelical Church was the largest religious > denomination in all of what we consider Prussia. > > The Prussians were the ones that stabilized the religious wars in the > German > speaking areas of Europe. Four religions were made official, Evangelical, > Lutheran, Mennonite and Catholic (Roman). Now... if you were Evangelical > and > lived in a Catholic area, and you wanted your birth/marriage/baptism > recorded in a church (and no Evangelical Church was at hand), then it was > registered with the Catholic church. O.K., if your religious views did > not > match that of the registry and the register of the document had, then your > parents were not married. With that thought in mind, then most everyone > was > illegitimate. The same would hold true with Catholics registering in > Evangelical/Lutheran or Mennonite books... if you get my drift. > > As for the non-Prussian/German sounding names yes, quite possible. With > the > religious wars in mind, refuges such as French Huguenots, Dutch > Protestants, > etc. etc. etc. migrated to East and West Prussia because of religious > freedom. Even the out of work ship carpenters from Italy had a hand in > building the magnificent cathedrals of Prussia. > > The reverse migration was when Catherine the Great of Russia (originally a > princess from West Prussia) invited the German farmers (those without > land) > to the Ukraine to farm the land the Russians either couldn't or wouldn't. > Eventually, those German settlers had to convert to the Russian Orthodox > church or loose everything they had.... or leave. > > There is so much involved with the religious registering. Googling is the > best answer and my vote is that the Marquart/Marquardt girls did not > provide > the illegitimate births as so recorded, the items were only recorded that > way because of the view of the transcriber. > > I will now turn it over to more knowledgeable individuals... > > Regards, Rollo+ > =========== > > Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Kusc - Marquadt > > >> If you can stand one more e-mail regarding this topic, I can tell you >> that >> about 15 years ago, I did extensive research on my Glass line through the >> Sankt Katharina Braunsberg Katholic Kirche (St. Katherine's Catholic >> Church, >> Braunsberg, Ostpreussen, Prussia) LDS microfilm records. It was a gold >> mine >> of information giving me complete family trees for my great-great >> grandfather's family (though I came up completely dry for his wife!) >> going >> back 200 years. One name that I encountered very often was "Marquart." >> This name initially caught my eye because I, too, didn't think it sounded >> German, and it was as far away from France as you could get in Germany. >> The >> main reason that I remember that name, though, is that a vast majority of >> the Marquart births were marked with an "X" to denote illegitimacy, and >> it >> made me wonder about those Marquart girls! Another name that I ran >> across >> in those records, though only once, was the only noble birth I >> encountered, >> that of a child born to a von Frankenstein family. I'm sure there was no >> connection to the fictional characters, though. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: prussia-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:prussia-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Elaine O'Neill >> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 8:05 PM >> To: PRUSSIA-ROOTS@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Kusc - Marquadt >> >> I sent to Michigan for my Great-grandmother's death certificate. >> Rather than it answering some questions it's only creating more. >> Partly because of the handwriting on the original record, and partly >> because of conflicting information. >> >> I was hoping for a definite birth location, but only got "Germany". >> On well. Could be worse I guess. >> >> But the big questions are regarding names. On my grandfather's >> marriage record from Windsor, Ontario he gives his mother's maiden >> name as BRUCHESCI. I assumed there may have been a spelling error but >> that the correct name would at least be something similar. But no! On >> her death record her husband gives her father's name as John KUSC, and >> her mother's maiden name as Tesia (?) MARQUADT. Is MARQUADT a German >> name? It almost sounds a bit French to me. And how does one get >> BRUCHESCI from KUSC? I have to assume that the information on the >> death record is more accurate because it was provided by her husband, >> rather than one of her children. >> >> Thanks for any input or advice. >> >> Elaine O'. >> in the beautiful Missouri Ozarks >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My cousin, Dagmar, who was born in Lithuania has extensive knowledge about the area of East Prussia, especially in regards to ethnic German Lutherans. When I questioned her about the X by the name of a baby she indicated to me that does not mean illegitimate. It does mean that one of the parents of the baby is deceased. When a child is illegitimate it is written very clearly the word unehelith in German. The X is the sign of the cross. She has been reviewing many records of Evangelical Lutheran churches in the Gumbinnen, Mariampole, Kovno, Vilnius, Garliava, Verbalis areas, etc. and this has been the case in the records she has so far searched. I just wanted to give some more insight here to those records. Many of them are written in Lithuania, Polish (as were the ones I saw from Garliava) and Russian besides German, depending on the era. That makes it very hard to search these records. Also, the names of the towns changed languages making it even more difficult. She certainly concurred with the fact that if there was not a Lutheran church the record in question may be in the Catholic registry. Some of the names we are searching in East Prussia, most of them were the Salzburgers, are: Heidrich, Holl, Sabrovsky, Sabarowski, Saborowsky (various spellings), Zimmerman, Stein written in German as Styen and even sometimes with a z in there, Holl, Hopp (Hoppe), Mett, Palencius, Palenschus, Palenshus, Less, Krause, Klaus and Dietrich with the various spellings. To read about the Salzburgers here are two nice websites: www.exulanten.com/index.html www.exulanten.com/preussen.html Sandie ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Lipprandt" <rloss@bellsouth.net> To: <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Illegitimacy Illegitimate... maybe, maybe not. It depends upon the religious view of the transcriber. Without getting into a religious uproar about my statement (above), Prussia (with Köningburg as capitol) was predominantly protestant (Evangelical and Lutheran). By this I mean Ostpreussen (East Prussia) and Westpreussen (West Prussia). Provinces near France, Italy, Austria and Poland would have had a Catholic influence. The Evangelical Church was the largest religious denomination in all of what we consider Prussia. The Prussians were the ones that stabilized the religious wars in the German speaking areas of Europe. Four religions were made official, Evangelical, Lutheran, Mennonite and Catholic (Roman). Now... if you were Evangelical and lived in a Catholic area, and you wanted your birth/marriage/baptism recorded in a church (and no Evangelical Church was at hand), then it was registered with the Catholic church. O.K., if your religious views did not match that of the registry and the register of the document had, then your parents were not married. With that thought in mind, then most everyone was illegitimate. The same would hold true with Catholics registering in Evangelical/Lutheran or Mennonite books... if you get my drift. As for the non-Prussian/German sounding names yes, quite possible. With the religious wars in mind, refuges such as French Huguenots, Dutch Protestants, etc. etc. etc. migrated to East and West Prussia because of religious freedom. Even the out of work ship carpenters from Italy had a hand in building the magnificent cathedrals of Prussia. The reverse migration was when Catherine the Great of Russia (originally a princess from West Prussia) invited the German farmers (those without land) to the Ukraine to farm the land the Russians either couldn't or wouldn't. Eventually, those German settlers had to convert to the Russian Orthodox church or loose everything they had.... or leave. There is so much involved with the religious registering. Googling is the best answer and my vote is that the Marquart/Marquardt girls did not provide the illegitimate births as so recorded, the items were only recorded that way because of the view of the transcriber. I will now turn it over to more knowledgeable individuals... Regards, Rollo+ =========== Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Kusc - Marquadt > If you can stand one more e-mail regarding this topic, I can tell you that > about 15 years ago, I did extensive research on my Glass line through the > Sankt Katharina Braunsberg Katholic Kirche (St. Katherine's Catholic > Church, > Braunsberg, Ostpreussen, Prussia) LDS microfilm records. It was a gold > mine > of information giving me complete family trees for my great-great > grandfather's family (though I came up completely dry for his wife!) going > back 200 years. One name that I encountered very often was "Marquart." > This name initially caught my eye because I, too, didn't think it sounded > German, and it was as far away from France as you could get in Germany. > The > main reason that I remember that name, though, is that a vast majority of > the Marquart births were marked with an "X" to denote illegitimacy, and it > made me wonder about those Marquart girls! Another name that I ran across > in those records, though only once, was the only noble birth I > encountered, > that of a child born to a von Frankenstein family. I'm sure there was no > connection to the fictional characters, though. > > -----Original Message----- > From: prussia-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prussia-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Elaine O'Neill > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 8:05 PM > To: PRUSSIA-ROOTS@rootsweb.com > Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Kusc - Marquadt > > I sent to Michigan for my Great-grandmother's death certificate. > Rather than it answering some questions it's only creating more. > Partly because of the handwriting on the original record, and partly > because of conflicting information. > > I was hoping for a definite birth location, but only got "Germany". > On well. Could be worse I guess. > > But the big questions are regarding names. On my grandfather's > marriage record from Windsor, Ontario he gives his mother's maiden > name as BRUCHESCI. I assumed there may have been a spelling error but > that the correct name would at least be something similar. But no! On > her death record her husband gives her father's name as John KUSC, and > her mother's maiden name as Tesia (?) MARQUADT. Is MARQUADT a German > name? It almost sounds a bit French to me. And how does one get > BRUCHESCI from KUSC? I have to assume that the information on the > death record is more accurate because it was provided by her husband, > rather than one of her children. > > Thanks for any input or advice. > > Elaine O'. > in the beautiful Missouri Ozarks > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message