Does everyone know that Ancestry.com is free for two weeks right now? Jeanne -----Original Message----- From: prussia-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prussia-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Doreen Jackson Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 12:56 AM To: prussia-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia AncestorResearch How fascinating, could have been me outlining my woes. Many years I have endeavoured to find relatives in Germany and, of course, with the coming of the WWW - email.  The german brick wall is my highest wall of all those irritating "wont be found people" sitting on the back burner.  Paying a researcher or, indeed, the archives is far too costly.  The main place for me is Hannover, well that is where they went, to the best of my knowledge, after leaving the UK in the 1870's.   Doreen  ________________________________ From: judy petersen <skigranny@gmail.com> To: genealogy@eirenicon.org; prussia-roots@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, 1 October 2011, 23:48 Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia Ancestor Research Thanks.  So far, I don't have funds to search in German archives, & I don't speak German.  Mostly, I keep hoping that my gr grandfather had sibblings who may have had descendants who might recognize the name or info.  Since I'm working on all branches of my family at the same time, I just keep going back to the brick walls periodically to see what's new.  I'm pretty much stuck with email for the forseeable future.  Thanks anyway. Judy On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Mark F Rabideau <genealogy@eirenicon.org>wrote: > Hi Judy > > If you'd like to talk. I am happy to arrange a time to offer some > ideas on options and ideas (email is too narrow for a real discourse).. > > Without a town looking for your grandfather will obviously be a > problem... but you can find needles in haystacks.  I just found one of > mine.  If you are interested in that story it is here: > http://www.many-roads.com/2011/09/20/auguste-alvina-caroline-kunz/ > > Viel Glueck beim forschen! > > ...mark (Mark Rabideau) > > ManyRoads Family Genealogist (Rabideau-Henss Family) *Visit us at: > http://many-roads.com <http://many-roads.com/> * *Snail mail at: *711 > Nob Hill Trail - Franktown,CO USA - 80116-8717 *phone:*+1.303.660.9400 > *fax:*+1.303.660.9217 *member:*Association of Professional > Genealogists & National Genealogical Society > _____________________________________________________________________ > *"It's always useful to know where a friend-and-relation is, whether > you want him or whether you don't."* > > Rabbit, Pooh's Little Instruction Book (Winnie the Pooh) > > > > > On 09/30/2011 04:41 PM, judy petersen wrote: > > I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. > > 1862 Silesia.  His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of > > allegiance was Germany, but I have no village name.  He died in > > 1917.  Plenty of > info > > on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > > Silesia.  I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. > > Judy > > > > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen > >Chambers<maryln61@yahoo.com > >wrote: > > > >>        My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to > >>Prussia but have not had any success.  Part of the issue is all we > >>have is Prussia which is > on > >> the > >> few records we have as place of birth.  Realize that is like saying > >>New England! > >>        We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. > >>1850 > to > >> 1860.  We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother > >> 1860 > to > >> 1864 > >> in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD.  MD civil records > >> did > not > >> start > >> until 1898.  About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford > >> Count > y > >> OH. > >> My g grandmother's family also moved with them.  She was American > >> born > 1845 > >> but > >> her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census&  her mother > >> from Bayonne. > >> Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". >  His > >> name > >> John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. > >>        I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available > >>for > some > >> areas in the late 18th century.  Would there be a list/index for > >> the various areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil > >> records??  Even though there may be numerous men with the same > >> given&  surname, it might give > us a >  >> more > >> defined area to search. > >>        It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS > (various > >> spelling) is often in what is now Belgium.  However, I have been > >> told > that > >> the > >> part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. >  I > >> have > >> a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. > >> Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his > place > >> of > >> birth if he was actually born in that part which changed.  Or would > using > >> it be > >> better define that part??? > >>        Would anyone on the list have any ideas? > >>        My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired > >>1879 Crestline Crawford County OH.  On the 1870 census the surname > >>was spelled LABENS > and > >> on > >> other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. > >>        Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records.  > >>It is > MD > >> back > >> to Prussia which is our brick wall.  In MD both families lived in > >> Rising Sun, Cecil County MD; near Elkton.  They were of the > >> Lutheran faith. > >> > >> Mary Ellen Chambers > >> Lakewood, OH > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I had a similar problem in that the best information about my immigrant ancestors that I could find in the ship's passenger manifest was that my Weiss ancestor was from Prussia with no indication of where in Prussia. However, my great-grandparents had settled in New Orleans in 1855 and they had three children in the next few years. I was able to find copies of the Louisiana birth certificates issued to the three, and two of the certificates listed the town, Altenkirchen, as the town where the child's mother had been born. I had no idea at the time that I would find such information in the Louisiana birth records but lucked out. Frank Weihs -----Original Message----- From: judy petersen Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 3:48 PM To: genealogy@eirenicon.org ; prussia-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia AncestorResearch Thanks. So far, I don't have funds to search in German archives, & I don't speak German. Mostly, I keep hoping that my gr grandfather had sibblings who may have had descendants who might recognize the name or info. Since I'm working on all branches of my family at the same time, I just keep going back to the brick walls periodically to see what's new. I'm pretty much stuck with email for the forseeable future. Thanks anyway. Judy On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Mark F Rabideau <genealogy@eirenicon.org>wrote: > Hi Judy > > If you'd like to talk. I am happy to arrange a time to offer some ideas > on options and ideas (email is too narrow for a real discourse).. > > Without a town looking for your grandfather will obviously be a > problem... but you can find needles in haystacks. I just found one of > mine. If you are interested in that story it is here: > http://www.many-roads.com/2011/09/20/auguste-alvina-caroline-kunz/ > > Viel Glueck beim forschen! > > ...mark (Mark Rabideau) > > ManyRoads Family Genealogist (Rabideau-Henss Family) > *Visit us at: http://many-roads.com <http://many-roads.com/> * > *Snail mail at: *711 Nob Hill Trail - Franktown,CO USA - 80116-8717 > *phone:*+1.303.660.9400 *fax:*+1.303.660.9217 > *member:*Association of Professional Genealogists & National > Genealogical Society > _____________________________________________________________________ > *"It's always useful to know where a friend-and-relation is, whether you > want him or whether you don't."* > > Rabbit, Pooh's Little Instruction Book (Winnie the Pooh) > > > > > On 09/30/2011 04:41 PM, judy petersen wrote: > > I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 > > Silesia. His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of > > allegiance > > was Germany, but I have no village name. He died in 1917. Plenty of > info > > on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > > Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. > > Judy > > > > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers<maryln61@yahoo.com > >wrote: > > > >> My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia > >> but > >> have not > >> had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is > on > >> the > >> few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New > >> England! > >> We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. > >> 1850 > to > >> 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 > to > >> 1864 > >> in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did > not > >> start > >> until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count > y > >> OH. > >> My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born > 1845 > >> but > >> her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census& her mother from > >> Bayonne. > >> Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". > His > >> name > >> John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. > >> I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for > some > >> areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the > >> various > >> areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even > >> though > >> there may be numerous men with the same given& surname, it might give > us a > >> more > >> defined area to search. > >> It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS > (various > >> spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told > that > >> the > >> part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. > I > >> have > >> a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. > >> Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his > place > >> of > >> birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would > using > >> it be > >> better define that part??? > >> Would anyone on the list have any ideas? > >> My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 > >> Crestline > >> Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS > and > >> on > >> other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. > >> Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It > >> is > MD > >> back > >> to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in > >> Rising > >> Sun, > >> Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. > >> > >> Mary Ellen Chambers > >> Lakewood, OH > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

How fascinating, could have been me outlining my woes. Many years I have endeavoured to find relatives in Germany and, of course, with the coming of the WWW - email.  The german brick wall is my highest wall of all those irritating "wont be found people" sitting on the back burner.  Paying a researcher or, indeed, the archives is far too costly.  The main place for me is Hannover, well that is where they went, to the best of my knowledge, after leaving the UK in the 1870's.   Doreen  ________________________________ From: judy petersen <skigranny@gmail.com> To: genealogy@eirenicon.org; prussia-roots@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, 1 October 2011, 23:48 Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia Ancestor Research Thanks.  So far, I don't have funds to search in German archives, & I don't speak German.  Mostly, I keep hoping that my gr grandfather had sibblings who may have had descendants who might recognize the name or info.  Since I'm working on all branches of my family at the same time, I just keep going back to the brick walls periodically to see what's new.  I'm pretty much stuck with email for the forseeable future.  Thanks anyway. Judy On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Mark F Rabideau <genealogy@eirenicon.org>wrote: > Hi Judy > > If you'd like to talk. I am happy to arrange a time to offer some ideas > on options and ideas (email is too narrow for a real discourse).. > > Without a town looking for your grandfather will obviously be a > problem... but you can find needles in haystacks.  I just found one of > mine.  If you are interested in that story it is here: > http://www.many-roads.com/2011/09/20/auguste-alvina-caroline-kunz/ > > Viel Glueck beim forschen! > > ...mark (Mark Rabideau) > > ManyRoads Family Genealogist (Rabideau-Henss Family) > *Visit us at: http://many-roads.com <http://many-roads.com/> * > *Snail mail at: *711 Nob Hill Trail - Franktown,CO USA - 80116-8717 > *phone:*+1.303.660.9400 *fax:*+1.303.660.9217 > *member:*Association of Professional Genealogists & National > Genealogical Society > _____________________________________________________________________ > *"It's always useful to know where a friend-and-relation is, whether you > want him or whether you don't."* > > Rabbit, Pooh's Little Instruction Book (Winnie the Pooh) > > > > > On 09/30/2011 04:41 PM, judy petersen wrote: > > I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 > > Silesia.  His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of allegiance > > was Germany, but I have no village name.  He died in 1917.  Plenty of > info > > on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > > Silesia.  I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. > > Judy > > > > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers<maryln61@yahoo.com > >wrote: > > > >>        My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but > >> have not > >> had any success.  Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is > on > >> the > >> few records we have as place of birth.  Realize that is like saying New > >> England! > >>        We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 > to > >> 1860.  We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 > to > >> 1864 > >> in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD.  MD civil records did > not > >> start > >> until 1898.  About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count > y > >> OH. > >> My g grandmother's family also moved with them.  She was American born > 1845 > >> but > >> her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census&  her mother from > >> Bayonne. > >> Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". >  His > >> name > >> John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. > >>        I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for > some > >> areas in the late 18th century.  Would there be a list/index for the > >> various > >> areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records??  Even > >> though > >> there may be numerous men with the same given&  surname, it might give > us a >  >> more > >> defined area to search. > >>        It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS > (various > >> spelling) is often in what is now Belgium.  However, I have been told > that > >> the > >> part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. >  I > >> have > >> a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. > >> Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his > place > >> of > >> birth if he was actually born in that part which changed.  Or would > using > >> it be > >> better define that part??? > >>        Would anyone on the list have any ideas? > >>        My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 > >> Crestline > >> Crawford County OH.  On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS > and > >> on > >> other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. > >>        Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records.  It is > MD > >> back > >> to Prussia which is our brick wall.  In MD both families lived in Rising > >> Sun, > >> Cecil County MD; near Elkton.  They were of the Lutheran faith. > >> > >> Mary Ellen Chambers > >> Lakewood, OH > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Barbara, as I wrote before you could check the "Auswandererkartei" of Brandenburg (central part of Prussia). The card file is filmed by the LDS church. Fiche Nr. 6109220 http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titlefilmnotes&columns=*%2C0%2C0&titleno=767068&disp=Auswanderungskartei++ The online database of this file unfortunately is incomplete so it would be better to check the microfiche. There are all persons / families who emmigrated from Brandenburg with an official permission. If you don't find your ancestors in the Brandenburg mircofiche you should contact other (former Prussian) Archives, such as those in Pomerania, Silesia, Posen, West Prussia and East Prussia. They have also such permissions in heir archives, but not online. I only found a family called Janke who emmigrated in 1853 with a lot of children from Brandenburg (Königsberg) to America. This family is another, but Jankow should be the right name. Stefan Rückling ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Scott" <scottb50@windstream.net> To: <PRUSSIA-ROOTS@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 3:22 PM Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Jankow, Janko, Yanko, Yankow, Jonka > Hello, > > > > I am new to this list. I am trying to find more information on my great > grandfather, William Yankow. He immigrated to the US from "Germany" in > 1874. I found a handwritten ships passenger list with a William Jankow, 3 > child, 2 adult leaving Hamburg 4 Feb. 1874. My great grandfather > immigrated > with his parents, William and Fredricka, sisters, Minna and Bertha. They > arrived in Cleveland, Ohio by 1810, if not before. The 1810 Census lists > Prussia as where they were all born. Later Census lists Germany. There > were two more children born in Cleveland, Ohio. I have found the surname > spelled many ways. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I have > no > other information as to what part of Prussia, churches etc. > > > > Thank you > > > > Barb > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks. So far, I don't have funds to search in German archives, & I don't speak German. Mostly, I keep hoping that my gr grandfather had sibblings who may have had descendants who might recognize the name or info. Since I'm working on all branches of my family at the same time, I just keep going back to the brick walls periodically to see what's new. I'm pretty much stuck with email for the forseeable future. Thanks anyway. Judy On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Mark F Rabideau <genealogy@eirenicon.org>wrote: > Hi Judy > > If you'd like to talk. I am happy to arrange a time to offer some ideas > on options and ideas (email is too narrow for a real discourse).. > > Without a town looking for your grandfather will obviously be a > problem... but you can find needles in haystacks. I just found one of > mine. If you are interested in that story it is here: > http://www.many-roads.com/2011/09/20/auguste-alvina-caroline-kunz/ > > Viel Glueck beim forschen! > > ...mark (Mark Rabideau) > > ManyRoads Family Genealogist (Rabideau-Henss Family) > *Visit us at: http://many-roads.com <http://many-roads.com/> * > *Snail mail at: *711 Nob Hill Trail - Franktown,CO USA - 80116-8717 > *phone:*+1.303.660.9400 *fax:*+1.303.660.9217 > *member:*Association of Professional Genealogists & National > Genealogical Society > _____________________________________________________________________ > *"It's always useful to know where a friend-and-relation is, whether you > want him or whether you don't."* > > Rabbit, Pooh's Little Instruction Book (Winnie the Pooh) > > > > > On 09/30/2011 04:41 PM, judy petersen wrote: > > I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 > > Silesia. His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of allegiance > > was Germany, but I have no village name. He died in 1917. Plenty of > info > > on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > > Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. > > Judy > > > > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers<maryln61@yahoo.com > >wrote: > > > >> My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but > >> have not > >> had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is > on > >> the > >> few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New > >> England! > >> We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 > to > >> 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 > to > >> 1864 > >> in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did > not > >> start > >> until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count > y > >> OH. > >> My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born > 1845 > >> but > >> her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census& her mother from > >> Bayonne. > >> Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". > His > >> name > >> John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. > >> I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for > some > >> areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the > >> various > >> areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even > >> though > >> there may be numerous men with the same given& surname, it might give > us a > >> more > >> defined area to search. > >> It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS > (various > >> spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told > that > >> the > >> part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. > I > >> have > >> a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. > >> Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his > place > >> of > >> birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would > using > >> it be > >> better define that part??? > >> Would anyone on the list have any ideas? > >> My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 > >> Crestline > >> Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS > and > >> on > >> other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. > >> Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It is > MD > >> back > >> to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in Rising > >> Sun, > >> Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. > >> > >> Mary Ellen Chambers > >> Lakewood, OH > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I just saw this message too. I think naturalization took at least 5 years. And, I know that Charles was married in 1886. No, I forgot about the Hamburg passenger lists. I'll try that - thanks for the reminder. I had back surgery last week & not sure my brain is working in high gear yet. Thanks again for the help. Judy 2011/10/1 Stefan Rückling <rueckling@gmx.de> > Judy, did you already checked the Hamburger Passenger Lists ? > > I have found a person Carl Herzog, born about 1866 in Oberpillau, Schlesien > [correct: Ober Peilau, Silesia, church registers filmed by the LDS] who > emmigrated to America in 1890. I don't know if a person who immigrated in > 1890 could be naturalized 2 years later ? > > Stefan. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "judy petersen" <skigranny@gmail.com> > To: <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 12:41 AM > Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia > AncestorResearch > > > >I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 > > Silesia. His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of allegiance > > was Germany, but I have no village name. He died in 1917. Plenty of > info > > on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > > Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. > > Judy > > > > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers > > <maryln61@yahoo.com>wrote: > > > >> My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but > >> have not > >> had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is > on > >> the > >> few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New > >> England! > >> We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 > >> to > >> 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 > to > >> 1864 > >> in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did > not > >> start > >> until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count > y > >> OH. > >> My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born > >> 1845 > >> but > >> her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census & her mother from > >> Bayonne. > >> Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". > >> His > >> name > >> John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. > >> I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for > >> some > >> areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the > >> various > >> areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even > >> though > >> there may be numerous men with the same given & surname, it might give > us > >> a > >> more > >> defined area to search. > >> It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS > (various > >> spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told > >> that > >> the > >> part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. > >> I > >> have > >> a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. > >> Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his > place > >> of > >> birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would > using > >> it be > >> better define that part??? > >> Would anyone on the list have any ideas? > >> My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 > >> Crestline > >> Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS > >> and > >> on > >> other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. > >> Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It is > >> MD > >> back > >> to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in Rising > >> Sun, > >> Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. > >> > >> Mary Ellen Chambers > >> Lakewood, OH > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

No. I could not find a passenger list for him, only his 1992 naturalization record. I don't even know whether he came alone or with family. He married my gr grandmother on May 26, 1886, so it must have been before that. I've just started pecking away at that brick wall. Judy 2011/9/30 Stefan Rückling <rueckling@gmx.de> > Judy, > > do you know when he arrived in America ? > > Stefan Rückling > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "judy petersen" <skigranny@gmail.com> > To: <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 12:41 AM > Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia > AncestorResearch > > > >I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 > > Silesia. His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of allegiance > > was Germany, but I have no village name. He died in 1917. Plenty of > info > > on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > > Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. > > Judy > > > > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers > > <maryln61@yahoo.com>wrote: > > > >> My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but > >> have not > >> had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is > on > >> the > >> few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New > >> England! > >> We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 > >> to > >> 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 > to > >> 1864 > >> in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did > not > >> start > >> until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count > y > >> OH. > >> My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born > >> 1845 > >> but > >> her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census & her mother from > >> Bayonne. > >> Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". > >> His > >> name > >> John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. > >> I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for > >> some > >> areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the > >> various > >> areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even > >> though > >> there may be numerous men with the same given & surname, it might give > us > >> a > >> more > >> defined area to search. > >> It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS > (various > >> spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told > >> that > >> the > >> part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. > >> I > >> have > >> a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. > >> Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his > place > >> of > >> birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would > using > >> it be > >> better define that part??? > >> Would anyone on the list have any ideas? > >> My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 > >> Crestline > >> Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS > >> and > >> on > >> other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. > >> Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It is > >> MD > >> back > >> to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in Rising > >> Sun, > >> Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. > >> > >> Mary Ellen Chambers > >> Lakewood, OH > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Judy, did you already checked the Hamburger Passenger Lists ? I have found a person Carl Herzog, born about 1866 in Oberpillau, Schlesien [correct: Ober Peilau, Silesia, church registers filmed by the LDS] who emmigrated to America in 1890. I don't know if a person who immigrated in 1890 could be naturalized 2 years later ? Stefan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "judy petersen" <skigranny@gmail.com> To: <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 12:41 AM Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia AncestorResearch >I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 > Silesia. His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of allegiance > was Germany, but I have no village name. He died in 1917. Plenty of info > on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. > Judy > > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers > <maryln61@yahoo.com>wrote: > >> My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but >> have not >> had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is on >> the >> few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New >> England! >> We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 >> to >> 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 to >> 1864 >> in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did not >> start >> until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count y >> OH. >> My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born >> 1845 >> but >> her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census & her mother from >> Bayonne. >> Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". >> His >> name >> John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. >> I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for >> some >> areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the >> various >> areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even >> though >> there may be numerous men with the same given & surname, it might give us >> a >> more >> defined area to search. >> It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS (various >> spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told >> that >> the >> part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. >> I >> have >> a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. >> Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his place >> of >> birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would using >> it be >> better define that part??? >> Would anyone on the list have any ideas? >> My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 >> Crestline >> Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS >> and >> on >> other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. >> Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It is >> MD >> back >> to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in Rising >> Sun, >> Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. >> >> Mary Ellen Chambers >> Lakewood, OH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello, I am new to this list. I am trying to find more information on my great grandfather, William Yankow. He immigrated to the US from "Germany" in 1874. I found a handwritten ships passenger list with a William Jankow, 3 child, 2 adult leaving Hamburg 4 Feb. 1874. My great grandfather immigrated with his parents, William and Fredricka, sisters, Minna and Bertha. They arrived in Cleveland, Ohio by 1810, if not before. The 1810 Census lists Prussia as where they were all born. Later Census lists Germany. There were two more children born in Cleveland, Ohio. I have found the surname spelled many ways. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I have no other information as to what part of Prussia, churches etc. Thank you Barb

Hi all, As many here (I suspect) find, Prussian immigrants are difficult to track back. As I understand, there is no centralized German resources, like in Sweden, and even the churches were fractured by war and politics. I had heard vaguely from one older family member about "Regensburg" mentioned, but no specifics. I just found a new Illinois death recording in "Deaths and Stillbirths, 1916-1947" which lists "Berlin, Germany" as the immigrant's (her father) place of birth. But this is the first reference in 15 years of looking and I'm naturally suspect. The daughter's surviving husband was probably the informant, and Berlin might not have been the actual birthplace, as the other poster commented - people move. If anyone has good suggestions for Berlin resources, I'll look of course, or even hire a local, which worked well for getting a Swedish g-grandmother's info. At 11:40 PM 9/30/2011, you wrote: >I had a problem with my g-grandparents, no village or town listed on any >official records. When I started researching the births of their >children I found the baptism records listed the village names for each >of the parents. I found a number of Antone Schumacher's children in Chicago Catholic baptismal records (Latin) in the LDS films, but none mentioned a village. They are still a good source of other info, especially as the Great Fire destroyed all civil records, like their marriage and his naturalization. I searched all area church's records for an ~1861 marriage to no avail; it might have been a justice of the peace in little Niles Township. Most children were married Catholic, but some not. They were baptized in at least 3 different Chicago churches, not corresponding to their residence at the time. I found it amazing they would travel 8 miles in 1860s with an infant for the baptism. > > On 09/30/11, judy petersen wrote: Plenty of info > >> on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > >> Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. I too found a lot of info post-fire, but by then he was married with 5 children. His wife, Maria Klinge, was 1st generation American and so her parents are in the same informational black hole... Basic info on who I'm searching for: Antone Schumacher b.1837 (Berlin?) Prussia, imm. ~1848 parents: Antone Schumacher - Ann Maria Krupp, Prussia m. ~1861 Niles Ill. to: Maria Anna Kilnge b.1844 Niles parents: Carl Klinge - Gertrude Falkenberg, Prussia Ray Schumacher http://rjs.org/geneaology/

Darlene, Thank you for posting this - indeed the original entries for extended family in Church Books can be most informative. In some cases diligent pastors and priests kept lists of families, especially concentrating on where baptisms had taken place. Sometimes it may be necessary to visit the churches with such books personally (making sure to ask what books have been made) to find out what information is available. Some may be lucky with immigration, naturalization etc records, but experience of my family has been that either a specific town was not given, or they had moved several times and no births, marriages or deaths were found connected to the last place of residence. Bronwyn. On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 7:40 AM, Darlene <tichi1904@pacbell.net> wrote: > I had a problem with my g-grandparents, no village or town listed on any > official records. When I started researching the births of their > children I found the baptism records listed the village names for each > of the parents.  It was a goldmine.  If you have not checked these > records, I would give it a try. Good luck! > > Darlene

unsubscribe > From: rueckling@gmx.de > To: prussia-roots@rootsweb.com > Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 11:54:19 +0200 > Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia AncestorResearch > > Judy, did you already checked the Hamburger Passenger Lists ? > > I have found a person Carl Herzog, born about 1866 in Oberpillau, Schlesien > [correct: Ober Peilau, Silesia, church registers filmed by the LDS] who > emmigrated to America in 1890. I don't know if a person who immigrated in > 1890 could be naturalized 2 years later ? > > Stefan. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "judy petersen" <skigranny@gmail.com> > To: <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 12:41 AM > Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia > AncestorResearch > > > >I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 > > Silesia. His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of allegiance > > was Germany, but I have no village name. He died in 1917. Plenty of info > > on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > > Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. > > Judy > > > > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers > > <maryln61@yahoo.com>wrote: > > > >> My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but > >> have not > >> had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is on > >> the > >> few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New > >> England! > >> We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 > >> to > >> 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 to > >> 1864 > >> in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did not > >> start > >> until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count y > >> OH. > >> My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born > >> 1845 > >> but > >> her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census & her mother from > >> Bayonne. > >> Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". > >> His > >> name > >> John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. > >> I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for > >> some > >> areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the > >> various > >> areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even > >> though > >> there may be numerous men with the same given & surname, it might give us > >> a > >> more > >> defined area to search. > >> It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS (various > >> spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told > >> that > >> the > >> part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. > >> I > >> have > >> a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. > >> Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his place > >> of > >> birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would using > >> it be > >> better define that part??? > >> Would anyone on the list have any ideas? > >> My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 > >> Crestline > >> Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS > >> and > >> on > >> other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. > >> Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It is > >> MD > >> back > >> to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in Rising > >> Sun, > >> Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. > >> > >> Mary Ellen Chambers > >> Lakewood, OH > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Lorene~       To what USA immigration documents do you refer??  The majority of Naturalization Papers in US, especially in MD  & in OH just have Germany or in rare circumstances Hesse Darmstadt, Prussia, etc.  I have volunteered at our local archives, been to MD archives at Annapolis numerous times, find most of the application & final papers quite vague.  Now doing research in MA , found for some reason their copies had extra data.        Are there other immigration documents I am not aware? Mary Ellen ________________________________ From: Lorene Seman <lmseman@wisc.edu> To: prussia-roots@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, October 1, 2011 12:20:53 AM Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia Ancestor Research I would recommend finding the immigration documents which is how I found my family.  The immigration documents contained the village where they lived so I found the church records there  Did you try the prussian database? On 09/30/11, judy petersen wrote: > I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 > Silesia. His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of allegiance > was Germany, but I have no village name. He died in 1917. Plenty of info > on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. > Judy > >

Judy, do you know when he arrived in America ? Stefan Rückling ----- Original Message ----- From: "judy petersen" <skigranny@gmail.com> To: <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 12:41 AM Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia AncestorResearch >I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 > Silesia. His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of allegiance > was Germany, but I have no village name. He died in 1917. Plenty of info > on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. > Judy > > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers > <maryln61@yahoo.com>wrote: > >> My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but >> have not >> had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is on >> the >> few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New >> England! >> We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 >> to >> 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 to >> 1864 >> in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did not >> start >> until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count y >> OH. >> My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born >> 1845 >> but >> her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census & her mother from >> Bayonne. >> Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". >> His >> name >> John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. >> I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for >> some >> areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the >> various >> areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even >> though >> there may be numerous men with the same given & surname, it might give us >> a >> more >> defined area to search. >> It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS (various >> spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told >> that >> the >> part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. >> I >> have >> a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. >> Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his place >> of >> birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would using >> it be >> better define that part??? >> Would anyone on the list have any ideas? >> My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 >> Crestline >> Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS >> and >> on >> other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. >> Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It is >> MD >> back >> to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in Rising >> Sun, >> Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. >> >> Mary Ellen Chambers >> Lakewood, OH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I had a problem with my g-grandparents, no village or town listed on any official records. When I started researching the births of their children I found the baptism records listed the village names for each of the parents. It was a goldmine. If you have not checked these records, I would give it a try. Good luck! Darlene On 9/30/2011 9:20 PM, Lorene Seman wrote: > I would recommend finding the immigration documents which is how I found my family. The immigration documents contained the village where they lived so I found the church records there Did you try the prussian database? > > On 09/30/11, judy petersen wrote: >> I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 >> Silesia. His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of allegiance >> was Germany, but I have no village name. He died in 1917. Plenty of info >> on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in >> Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. >> Judy >> >> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers<maryln61@yahoo.com>wrote: >> >>> My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but >>> have not >>> had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is on >>> the >>> few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New >>> England! >>> We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 to >>> 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 to >>> 1864 >>> in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did not >>> start >>> until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count y >>> OH. >>> My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born 1845 >>> but >>> her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census& her mother from >>> Bayonne. >>> Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". His >>> name >>> John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. >>> I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for some >>> areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the >>> various >>> areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even >>> though >>> there may be numerous men with the same given& surname, it might give us a >>> more >>> defined area to search. >>> It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS (various >>> spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told that >>> the >>> part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. I >>> have >>> a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. >>> Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his place >>> of >>> birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would using >>> it be >>> better define that part??? >>> Would anyone on the list have any ideas? >>> My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 >>> Crestline >>> Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS and >>> on >>> other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. >>> Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It is MD >>> back >>> to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in Rising >>> Sun, >>> Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. >>> >>> Mary Ellen Chambers >>> Lakewood, OH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- > Lorene Seman, MBA > Assistant Administrator, Department of Anesthesiology > School of Medicine and Public Health > University of Wisconsin > 600 Highland Ave, B6/319 CSC > Madison, WI 53792-3272 > Voice: (608)-265-0588 > FAX: (608)-263-8111 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I would recommend finding the immigration documents which is how I found my family. The immigration documents contained the village where they lived so I found the church records there Did you try the prussian database? On 09/30/11, judy petersen wrote: > I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 > Silesia. His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of allegiance > was Germany, but I have no village name. He died in 1917. Plenty of info > on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. > Judy > > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers <maryln61@yahoo.com>wrote: > > > My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but > > have not > > had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is on > > the > > few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New > > England! > > We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 to > > 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 to > > 1864 > > in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did not > > start > > until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count y > > OH. > > My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born 1845 > > but > > her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census & her mother from > > Bayonne. > > Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". His > > name > > John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. > > I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for some > > areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the > > various > > areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even > > though > > there may be numerous men with the same given & surname, it might give us a > > more > > defined area to search. > > It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS (various > > spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told that > > the > > part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. I > > have > > a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. > > Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his place > > of > > birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would using > > it be > > better define that part??? > > Would anyone on the list have any ideas? > > My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 > > Crestline > > Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS and > > on > > other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. > > Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It is MD > > back > > to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in Rising > > Sun, > > Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. > > > > Mary Ellen Chambers > > Lakewood, OH > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Lorene Seman, MBA Assistant Administrator, Department of Anesthesiology School of Medicine and Public Health University of Wisconsin 600 Highland Ave, B6/319 CSC Madison, WI 53792-3272 Voice: (608)-265-0588 FAX: (608)-263-8111

Hi Judy If you'd like to talk. I am happy to arrange a time to offer some ideas on options and ideas (email is too narrow for a real discourse).. Without a town looking for your grandfather will obviously be a problem... but you can find needles in haystacks. I just found one of mine. If you are interested in that story it is here: http://www.many-roads.com/2011/09/20/auguste-alvina-caroline-kunz/ Viel Glueck beim forschen! ...mark (Mark Rabideau) ManyRoads Family Genealogist (Rabideau-Henss Family) *Visit us at: http://many-roads.com <http://many-roads.com/> * *Snail mail at: *711 Nob Hill Trail - Franktown,CO USA - 80116-8717 *phone:*+1.303.660.9400 *fax:*+1.303.660.9217 *member:*Association of Professional Genealogists & National Genealogical Society _____________________________________________________________________ *"It's always useful to know where a friend-and-relation is, whether you want him or whether you don't."* Rabbit, Pooh's Little Instruction Book (Winnie the Pooh) On 09/30/2011 04:41 PM, judy petersen wrote: > I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 > Silesia. His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of allegiance > was Germany, but I have no village name. He died in 1917. Plenty of info > on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in > Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. > Judy > > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers<maryln61@yahoo.com>wrote: > >> My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but >> have not >> had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is on >> the >> few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New >> England! >> We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 to >> 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 to >> 1864 >> in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did not >> start >> until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count y >> OH. >> My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born 1845 >> but >> her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census& her mother from >> Bayonne. >> Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". His >> name >> John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. >> I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for some >> areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the >> various >> areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even >> though >> there may be numerous men with the same given& surname, it might give us a >> more >> defined area to search. >> It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS (various >> spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told that >> the >> part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. I >> have >> a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. >> Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his place >> of >> birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would using >> it be >> better define that part??? >> Would anyone on the list have any ideas? >> My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 >> Crestline >> Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS and >> on >> other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. >> Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It is MD >> back >> to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in Rising >> Sun, >> Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. >> >> Mary Ellen Chambers >> Lakewood, OH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have the same problem with my gr grandfather Charles Herzog, b. 1862 Silesia. His 1892 naturalization record showed his country of allegiance was Germany, but I have no village name. He died in 1917. Plenty of info on his years in Chicago, but no idea where or how to look for him in Silesia. I'm also interested in any ideas on how to approach this. Judy On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers <maryln61@yahoo.com>wrote: > My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but > have not > had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is on > the > few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New > England! > We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 to > 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 to > 1864 > in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did not > start > until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count y > OH. > My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born 1845 > but > her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census & her mother from > Bayonne. > Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". His > name > John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. > I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for some > areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the > various > areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even > though > there may be numerous men with the same given & surname, it might give us a > more > defined area to search. > It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS (various > spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told that > the > part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. I > have > a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. > Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his place > of > birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would using > it be > better define that part??? > Would anyone on the list have any ideas? > My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 > Crestline > Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS and > on > other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. > Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It is MD > back > to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in Rising > Sun, > Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. > > Mary Ellen Chambers > Lakewood, OH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Here's several maps of Prussia, including West Prussia over the years. I was at a loss for where my relatives came from until a fellow genealogist found the immigration information. On it was listed the village that they came from. Then I was able to search the church records. I found their marriage but I had different spellings for both last names. My Jacob Seaman (name spelled in Wisconsin) was Jacob Cimenia (which was probably an incorrect translation from the church records because his name was Cyman - polish version and later forced to change it to Zieman, the German version) and Josephine Bellani or Bellavi (Wisconsin name) was actually Bielawa in polish (Polish has no V and the W is pronounced as a V--her father was probably Bielawi but women's last names in polish often end in an "a" I correctly assumed that the Wisconsin version on a death record was someone's interpretation of how the polish name would be spelled in English: Bellavi. By the way, the immigration name was Zimmann so another variation. My advice? Don't get hung up on the spelling of the surnames because likely they changed over the years, depending on who was in control of the country. http://www.rollintl.com/roll/prussia.htm On 9/29/2011 4:46 PM, Augusta Elmwood wrote: > Mary Ellen, > > If it’s any help, I believe there was a West Preussen, which was actually disconnected from Prussia and located more in western Germany, towards northern France... which might explain the prevalence of the name in Belgium. My knowledge of this history is sketchy, but maybe someone on the list can confirm (or negate) this& give more details. > > Good luck, it’s SO hard looking for those needles in the haystack, isn’t it?? > > Augusta Elmwood > > From: Mary Ellen Chambers > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 10:58 > To: prussia-roots@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia AncestorResearch > > Stefan~ > The part of the change over data was given to my cousin when he was > studying in Rome. He spent time trying to find our g grandfather on holidays in > Prussia area. Kept getting directed to Belgium and the commonality of the > surname there. Interesting. > Therefore, it would behove us to perhaps concentrate on the Rhineland& > those parts of the Palatine returned to Prussia after Napoleon's defeat. Where > might we find an index of civil births for that area circa 1830-1840? > Thank you so much. > > Mary Ellen > > > > ________________________________ > From: Stefan Rückling<rueckling@gmx.de> > To: prussia-roots@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, September 29, 2011 11:42:26 AM > Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia Ancestor Research > > Mary, > > Belgium was never part of Prussia. > > France occupated at the end of the 18th century the Rhineland (Rheinland) > and the Palatine (Pfalz). Then Napoleon imported the civil registers in this > occupated region, so these registers begin 1792. After Napoleons defeat > (1815) Prussia get the Rhineland and parts of the Palatine. The Prussian > government continued the civil registers. In all other parts of Prussia they > begin in 1874 and in the rest of Germany in 1876. > > The birth place "Prussia" is really not very specific so it's very hard to > find the region where your ancestor came from. > > Sincerely, > > Stefan > > www.rueckling.de > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mary Ellen Chambers"<maryln61@yahoo.com> > To:<PRUSSIA-ROOTS@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 5:12 PM > Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia Ancestor Research > > > My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but have not > had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is on the > few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New > England! > We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 to > 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 to > 1864 > in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did not > start > until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count y OH. > My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born 1845 > but > her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census& her mother from > Bayonne. > Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". His > name > John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. > I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for some > areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the various > areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even though > there may be numerous men with the same given& surname, it might give us a > more > defined area to search. > It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS (various > spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told that > the > part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. I > have > a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. > Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his place of > birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would using it > be > better define that part??? > Would anyone on the list have any ideas? > My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 Crestline > Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS and on > other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. > Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It is MD back > to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in Rising Sun, > Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. > > Mary Ellen Chambers > Lakewood, OH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Lorene Seman, MBA Assistant Administrator Department of Anesthesiology School of Medicine and Public Health University of Wisconsin 600 Highland Ave, B6/319 CSC Madison, WI 53792-3272 Voice: (608)265-0588 FAX: (608)263-8111 lmseman@wisc.edu

This database is incomplete. It contains only a few counties of Brandenburg. One day it will be complete. Stefan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bronwyn Klimach" <bronklimach@gmail.com> To: <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 2:44 AM Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia AncestorResearch Is this the same as one can search here? http://search.ancestry.com/search/db.aspx?dbid=4121 One needs to sign in (free) too access this database. Bronwyn. 2011/9/29 Stefan Rückling <rueckling@gmx.de>: > http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp > > Place search: Brandenburg > > and then search under "Emmigration". > > If you do this with Westpreussen you don't find such a card file of > Westprussian emmigrants. But there are several documents about persons who > left Westprussia. These documents (permission to leave the home) are in > the > State Archive in Danzig (today Gdansk). > > Stefan. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lorene Seman" <lmseman@wisc.edu> > To: <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 9:38 PM > Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia > AncestorResearch > > > Stefan: How do you search this database? I'd like to see if there are > records for my relatives, who left Hamburg in 1868, lived in Podjass > (today Podjazy) > > On 9/29/2011 1:56 PM, Stefan Rückling wrote: >> Mary, >> >> the LDS church has filmed the card file of emmigrants leaving Brandenburg >> (central part of Prussia). >> http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=767068&disp=Auswanderungskartei >> &columns=*,0,0 >> >> The original cards are in Brandenburgisches Landeshauptarchiv in Potsdam >> (near Berlin, former capital of Prussia). >> >> Since in America your ancestor was written Libbons or Libbens I gues it >> could also be Lübbers which is a very common name. The American people >> don't >> know the german ü and understand i. >> >> If you pronounce "Lübbers" in German it sounds like "Libbors". So you >> have >> to play with many possibilities if you check a database. >> >> Stefan. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mary Ellen Chambers"<maryln61@yahoo.com> >> To:<prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia >> AncestorResearch >> >> >> Thank you Lorene. Will check this out. Took a glance at it, realize have >> a >> lot >> to go through. Maybe will delegate some to my siblings! >> >> Appreciate the avenues you and Stefen have suggested to pursue. >> >> Mary Ellen Chambers >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Lorene Seman<lmseman@wisc.edu> >> To: prussia-roots@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Thu, September 29, 2011 11:37:58 AM >> Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Suggestions re: On Line Prussia Ancestor >> Research >> >> Here is a database of church records in Prussia. >> >> Go to PomGenBase If you find the family, I know of a guy who has CDs >> for sale with the actual records. >> >> http://www.ptg.gda.pl/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 9/29/2011 10:12 AM, Mary Ellen Chambers wrote: >> >>> My family has tried to trace my g grandfather back to Prussia but have >>> not >>> had any success. Part of the issue is all we have is Prussia which is on >>> the >>> few records we have as place of birth. Realize that is like saying New >>> England! >>> We have tried passenger lists coming into Baltimore, approx. 1850 to >>> 1860. We use this time-line because, he married my g grandmother 1860 to >>> 1864 >>> in either Cecil County or Baltimore County, MD. MD civil records did not >>> >> start >> >>> until 1898. About 1869 he moved his family to Crestline Crawford Count y >>> OH. >>> My g grandmother's family also moved with them. She was American born >>> 1845 >>> >> but >> >>> her father was from Hesse Darmstadt per 1880 census& her mother from >>> Bayonne. >>> >> >>> Again huge areas of Germany to try to find the "Needle in a haystack". >>> His >>> name >>> John Ludwig Kiel/Kile/Kyle. >>> I noticed on the list that there are Civil Records available for some >>> areas in the late 18th century. Would there be a list/index for the >>> various >>> areas of Prussia which state the start for their civil records?? Even >>> though >>> there may be numerous men with the same given& surname, it might give us >>> a >>> more >>> defined area to search. >>> It appears that my paternal g grandfather's surname LIBENS (various >>> spelling) is often in what is now Belgium. However, I have been told >>> that >>> the >>> part of Prussia which is now Belgium was changed D/T Napoleon's defeat. >>> I >>> >> have >> >>> a b. year for him of 1836 which would have been long after the defeat. >>> Therefore, find it strange that Prussia continued to be used as his >>> place >>> of >>> birth if he was actually born in that part which changed. Or would using >>> it >>> >> be >> >>> better define that part??? >>> Would anyone on the list have any ideas? >>> My g grandfather was John LIBENS b. 1836 Prussia, expired 1879 >>> >> Crestline >> >>> Crawford County OH. On the 1870 census the surname was spelled LABENS >>> and >>> on >>> other census LIBBENS, LIBBONS. >>> Once the families settled in OH, we have numerous records. It is MD >>> back >>> to Prussia which is our brick wall. In MD both families lived in Rising >>> Sun, >>> Cecil County MD; near Elkton. They were of the Lutheran faith. >>> >>> Mary Ellen Chambers >>> Lakewood, OH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >> > > -- > Lorene Seman, MBA > Assistant Administrator > Department of Anesthesiology > School of Medicine and Public Health > University of Wisconsin > 600 Highland Ave, B6/319 CSC > Madison, WI 53792-3272 > Voice: (608)265-0588 > FAX: (608)263-8111 > lmseman@wisc.edu > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message