For Minnesota you can find Naturalization records on film at the MN History Center in St. Paul: http://www.mnhs.org/index.htm You can also search the index and order copies online at the Iron Range Research Center: http://www.ironrangeresearchcenter.org/ Don't forget to check the church records here in the U.S. I've sometimes gotten some of my best info out of old church books. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat or Roger Miller" <patroger.miller@earthlink.net> To: "prussia-roots" <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 6:21 PM Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] finding the right church record location andother questi... > Karen, > > Thank you for the thought of looking at Catholic records for my Lutherans. > It's worth a shot. There are so few records (and not for the right > years) on the Pogutken films. I had planned to look for surnames for > clues (the records appear to be 25 years after my ggGrandfather departed). > Why do you think Pogutken is the better choice for the records? (Over > Schoeneck) > > As far as the Declaration of Intent, I'm afraid I was following some > innacurate advice that said I was to look for the DOI at the point of > entrance into the country. Now I will go to find it here in Minnesota. > (I don't think my ancester ever stopped in Wisconsin - it was merely > mentioned on the ship's log). The only real reference to Wisconsin other > that that was that one of my ancester's descendants settled in Alma - not > far from Winona County in Minnesota. I won't discount Wisconsin though - > it's just not going to be a primary search location. If I am to > understand the DOI - where would it have been filed? Am I correct to look > through county records? I can trace Friedrich in Minnesota to 1860 in > Winona County - so I have a gap from 1856 (arrival at Castle Garndes) to > and 1860 census where I do not know where he and his family were. > > Regarding Friedrich and Euphosine's apparent lack of siblings - yes, that > is GEDCOM only and therefore unsubstantiated. Hopefully I find something > in LDS microfilms in the one Pogutken record that is cataloged. > > Thank you for your insights > > Roger Miller

LGO, Yes, from the ships logs all I can tell is that they were there and that it is the right family unit of names and ages per our USA records. On the Naturalization Certificate - all I have is a copy from microfilm that I found at the Winona Historical Society - no signature, except the recording clerk and all filled in portions are in his same hand. It is only 1 page. When you say, "...it might shed some light on whether you have a copy that's an abstract or not.", what do you mean by an abstract? You give me hope that I may yet find documentation with a signature or a mark. The document I have is not a very good print (as microfiche prints seldom are) In the upper left had corner under the border design are 4 words in small type I cannot make out the first, but the rest says 'Certificate of Naturalization' Then in arched type across the entire certificate it reads: "United States of America". Beneath that is a seal that didn't print well, but what I see looks similar to a presidential seal today (I'm sure it is something else, but that I say it just to describe style) It is then followed by "State of Minnesota" across the entire document width and the next line is County of Winona. The we get into the body of the document. I hope this description helps determine what this document is. I can scan it and send you a copy if you're interested in looking it over closely. Thanks for the clues. In my youth I took an interest test to see what kind of work I was suited for and three possibilities came up: editor, photographer and detective. I ended up in derivatives of the first two (in film and video) yet this genealogical pursuit seems to be talking to the 'detective' in me. Regards, Roger Miller > [Original Message] > From: LGO <le_geefted_one@ix.netcom.com> > To: <patroger.miller@earthlink.net>; <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> > Date: 2/26/2007 12:18:42 AM > Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] finding the right church record locationandother questions > > Thanks for the note, Roger. > > Be careful with what you use as proof - Ship's logs are only proof being on the ship at that specific time and where departed from as well as where their destination was, nothing else. Likewise, census are not proof of anything other than residence on that specific date. I'm glad to hear you're using the other items as clues. You seem to have invested a lot of time so far and I'd hate to see your pedigree go astray on something like gedcoms. Common sense plays such a big part in genealogy and you seem to have your share. Kudos! > > Without looking at the naturalization cetificate you have, I'm thinking you don't have a copy of the original one. Sounds like some type of abstract. I've never seen a naturalization certificate from anywhere that doesn't have a place for the subject's signature. Just so you know, sometimes those documents are more than one page and the place for signature might be on that second page. Is what you have only one page? You might try and find it in LDS microfilms just to be certain you have the complete document. Did the witnesses sign it, or is it the same handrwriting for both names? Minscule clues, I agree, but it might shed some light on whether you have a copy that's an abstract or not. Always question everything! > > Continue the good work, Roger. I suggest you get the LDS Research Guide for Germany from their web site. It's free to download and chock full of information about German records types. After all, if you don't know what record type holds the answers you want, how will you ever find it? > > Good luck, > > LGO > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Pat or Roger Miller <patroger.miller@earthlink.net> > >Sent: Feb 25, 2007 7:22 PM > >To: prussia-roots <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> > >Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] finding the right church record location andother questions > > > >LGO, > > > >Thank you for pointing me toward Meyer's Orts. I hope you aren't confused > >by my posting. In no way do I consider GEDCOM files proof. They are > >merely pointers for clues. That is why I listed the hard items I had first > >(i.e. the Ship's log, the various census, the naturalization certificate, > >the tombstone) as well as the assumptions I have made ('my' Jarischau > >chosen relative to Lissewken) > > > >There is no place on the Naturalization certificate for either a signature > >or a mark. The Certificate of Naturalization was administered in the State > >of Minnesota, county of Winona - not New York. I should have mentioned > >that, I'm sorry. There is no reference on his Naturalization certificate > >of any filings of intent either. Frankly, it's more of a 'fill in the > >blanks' form that noted that Frederick 'personally appeared before' The > >Honorable Lloyd Barber and goes on to list the district court, an act date > >april 14, 1802 that allows naturalization. It is witnessed by a Frederick > >Lambrzska and Jacob Runkels. It also has the line filled in that he has > >renounced his allegiance and fidelity to the 'reigning Sovereign of the > >Kingdom of Prussia' All of the blanks are filled in with the same > >handwriting which matches the signature of the court clerk. > > > >I will be going to an LDS library in the near future so I can view films. > >I'm just trying to get to the right film numbers. I appreciate your input > >and hope that others may chime in as well. > > > >Regards, > >Roger Miller

Karen, Thank you for the thought of looking at Catholic records for my Lutherans. It's worth a shot. There are so few records (and not for the right years) on the Pogutken films. I had planned to look for surnames for clues (the records appear to be 25 years after my ggGrandfather departed). Why do you think Pogutken is the better choice for the records? (Over Schoeneck) As far as the Declaration of Intent, I'm afraid I was following some innacurate advice that said I was to look for the DOI at the point of entrance into the country. Now I will go to find it here in Minnesota. (I don't think my ancester ever stopped in Wisconsin - it was merely mentioned on the ship's log). The only real reference to Wisconsin other that that was that one of my ancester's descendants settled in Alma - not far from Winona County in Minnesota. I won't discount Wisconsin though - it's just not going to be a primary search location. If I am to understand the DOI - where would it have been filed? Am I correct to look through county records? I can trace Friedrich in Minnesota to 1860 in Winona County - so I have a gap from 1856 (arrival at Castle Garndes) to and 1860 census where I do not know where he and his family were. Regarding Friedrich and Euphosine's apparent lack of siblings - yes, that is GEDCOM only and therefore unsubstantiated. Hopefully I find something in LDS microfilms in the one Pogutken record that is cataloged. Thank you for your insights Roger Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: To: patroger.miller@earthlink.net Sent: 2/25/2007 9:58:39 PM Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] finding the right church record location and other questi... Hello Roger, For Evangelical records of Jarischau and for Lissewken, look at those of Pogutken, Kreis Berent. Pogutken was in the Evangelical Diocese of Preussen-Stargard. If LDS has records for Pogutken, start looking there for your families. Evangelical records for Lissewken should also be found at Pogutken. Even if the years are not specific to your family, it might be worth the effort to look at these records anyway, just to see if the family surnames appear there. Sometimes one can get extra clues that way. That said, I would also look at Catholic records for Pogutken as well. Sometimes there was a "crossover" from one church to the other for the recording of an event. If a minister (Lutheran) was away for a time from his church for some reason and a baptism was necessary, a family may have gone to a priest (Catholic) and asked him to perform the baptism. Sounds pretty far fetched, I know, but this has been found in the records on many occasions. Also, that a Catholic person was entered in a Lutheran register! So, be creative, if the records exist. I'm not sure why you'd look at New York for the naturalization record. You mention one dated March, 1868 and I presume you mean this was his "final certificate?" Does it say on this document that naturalization took place in New York? I'm a bit confused about this, as you said their destination was Wisconsin on the passenger list. Usually, if one had a destination in mind, he headed directly to the destination. One didn't usually make a Declaration of Intention until one was settled in a place. Perhaps I have misunderstood your comment. Did they first settle in New York? If so, I believe the DoI should have been taken out in the New York county where they lived at the time. Sorry, I've not worked much with New York records so am weak on this topic, but if they actually did live there for a while, I'd look at the various district records for the county in which they lived. Or, if in a large city like New York, check the various district records for the city. LD! S may have microfilmed naturalization records for New York, so check there first. The Declaration of Intention was not a uniform document in those early days, but most give when and where a person was born and/or lived, on which ship he came to the U.S. and the arrival port, etc. Again, I'm not familiar enough with New York records to know what all you'll find there, but if they lived there first, it would be worth your effort to track down the DoI in the NY county records. Perhaps you can learn more about naturalization records on the ROOTSWEB listing for New York. That said, did you find this family in the Wisconsin census records? That should give you an idea of when they arrived in Wisconsin. Perhaps the ancestor was naturalized there? Also, follow up with the Minnesota (Winona County) records, including the State Census, as they too can tell approximately when the family arrived in that state. I never trust those GEDCOM listings, but you should be able to establish the names of the parents from the birth records of the children. If nothing else, also look into the Pogutken records for "Christian and Elizabeth M�ller" etc. and see what you can find there. You don't say where you "see no record of siblings for Friedrich or Euphrosine." Do you mean you don't see them in any of the GEDCOM's you mentioned? Or, do you mean you have already looked at the Pogutken records and don't find them there? Yes, I agree there generally were many children in a family and the reason could be for those you state, as well as others. Keep in mind, in those early years children often didn't live very long and many did not even reach the age of five. Perhaps some were born but never reached adulthood due to genetics, local epidemics, etc.? Best to check for the family surnames in the death records for Pogutken (if they exist) to learn if there were any children (siblings) who died very young. Just a thought.... Don't hesitate to write back if you have questions on what I've written. The red flag to me was that you want to look for naturalization in New York, so had to ask about that. My guess would be to look at the county records in Wisconsin if that is where they settled after coming to America, unless you know for sure he was naturalized in New York. If Wisconsin was their "destination," it's possible that friends, family or neighbors were already living in Wisconsin and awaiting their arrival. Karen B. Whitmer AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Go to web site www.fuldaohio.com you might find your family there. I found my Schneider's there, they came from germany 1854. -----Original Message----- >From: twilmink <twilmink@adelphia.net> >Sent: Feb 26, 2007 1:51 PM >To: Prussia-Roots@rootsweb.com >Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Wilmink Family > >I continue to have trouble finding info on ggrandfather and ggrandmother. They were George Henry Wilmink (Wilming, Wilmick, Wilminck, etc.) and Maria Sophia Hefley (Hefele, Heffley, Heflick,etc.) I have a Henry Wilming coming to US at age 16 in 1865. He said in census records he came in 1865 but ages don't exactly match. George Henry and Mary settled in Vinton County, OH (1870s) and later in Hocking County, OH (1880's amd 1890's). There is some belief that they may have been ibn Bourbon County, KY in late 1860's. > >Now, here is where I need help and a lot of it. I have attempted to explore German records and even requested some with little or no success. George Henry said in census he was from Hannover but family has always said Konigsbury, East Prussia. Mary Sophia was from Bavaria >so Hannover is probably correct. George Henry's father was a soldier so possibly the family originally came from East Prussia to Hannover. >How can I find this out? > >I can find almost no records before 1870 census re Mary Sophia Hafley Wilmink except she is burried in Logan, Ohio. Anyone have any suggestions? > >Tom Wilmink > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com

-----Original Message----- >From: Herbert Teske <herb29@sbcglobal.net> > > I'm interested in any kind of help with this: My gggrandfather was Peter Teske, one of the > colonists of Paris, Bessarabia, in 1816. The only information I have from the Bessarabian > Church Family Books is that he was born in "West Prussia in 1717." ------------------------------------Snip----------------------------------- Are you certain you have the correct person? According to what you wrote, above, your ancestor would have been 99 years old as a colonist. That seems pretty doubtful. Good luck, LGO

Try this Herb http://www.jewishgen.org/ShetlSeeker/loctown.htm It will give name(s) of same spellings or similar ones (villages etc.). Another try would be http://members.cox.net/hessen/archives.htm The moderator is quite knowledgeable of most things in Germany and does speak the language eventhough his site is Hessen based. Regards, Robert Lipprandt =================== Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Hamburg as residence > I'm interested in any kind of help with this: My gggrandfather was Peter > Teske, one of the colonists of Paris, Bessarabia, in 1816. The only > information I have from the Bessarabian Church Family Books is that he was > born in "West Prussia in 1717." Does anyone have any information on West > Prussia and the region/village from which he might have originated or how > such information might be obtained? Any response is appreciated. > > Herb Teske

Tom, something to keep in mind about the residency in Hamburg. At times, there was no ship or space available for sailing. Immigrants then had to stay in "hotels" until a ship or their immigration space became available. During this stay, they were no longer citizens of where they came from but they (on their papers) had to indicate they were from Hamburg... or Bremen/Bremerhaven or other German ports. Use the information as a guide until something can be written in stone. It (information) may change and have to be tweaked a number of times. Regards, Robert Lipprandt ==================== Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Wilmink Family >I continue to have trouble finding info on ggrandfather and ggrandmother. >They were George Henry Wilmink (Wilming, Wilmick, Wilminck, etc.) and Maria >Sophia Hefley (Hefele, Heffley, Heflick,etc.) I have a Henry Wilming >coming to US at age 16 in 1865. He said in census records he came in 1865 >but ages don't exactly match. George Henry and Mary settled in Vinton >County, OH (1870s) and later in Hocking County, OH (1880's amd 1890's). >There is some belief that they may have been ibn Bourbon County, KY in late >1860's. > > Now, here is where I need help and a lot of it. I have attempted to > explore German records and even requested some with little or no success. > George Henry said in census he was from Hannover but family has always > said Konigsbury, East Prussia. Mary Sophia was from Bavaria > so Hannover is probably correct. George Henry's father was a soldier so > possibly the family originally came from East Prussia to Hannover. > How can I find this out? > > I can find almost no records before 1870 census re Mary Sophia Hafley > Wilmink except she is burried in Logan, Ohio. Anyone have any > suggestions? > > Tom Wilmink > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks, Robert! Herb "R. Lipprandt" <rloss@bellsouth.net> wrote: Try this Herb http://www.jewishgen.org/ShetlSeeker/loctown.htm It will give name(s) of same spellings or similar ones (villages etc.). Another try would be http://members.cox.net/hessen/archives.htm The moderator is quite knowledgeable of most things in Germany and does speak the language eventhough his site is Hessen based. Regards, Robert Lipprandt =================== Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Hamburg as residence > I'm interested in any kind of help with this: My gggrandfather was Peter > Teske, one of the colonists of Paris, Bessarabia, in 1816. The only > information I have from the Bessarabian Church Family Books is that he was > born in "West Prussia in 1717." Does anyone have any information on West > Prussia and the region/village from which he might have originated or how > such information might be obtained? Any response is appreciated. > > Herb Teske ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Tom - I think it will help you to back up just a bit and concentrate on U.S. records, look at originals wherever you can, since transcriptions always carry errors to some degree. And get your hands on a good map - Hannover (the Duchy and the City) are in the northwest, Lower Saxony or Niedersachsen of present-day Germany, but Bavaria is in the southeast. Königsberg (or Koenigsberg) you have correctly found in East Prussia (remember to use the umlaut or add the e, otherwise it's misspelled) though little exists there now (and there is more than one Königsberg) - the archives in Berlin will be a place to look for those. And sadly, nothing is left of the beautiful city of Königsberg - everything, including the streets themselves, was destroyed. But the answers to finding villages must be tackled in the USA - every scrap of paper or photo you can find - churches, naturalizations, fraternal organizations, newspapers, cemeteries and tombstones, obits, voter registrations, tax records, probates, city directories, applications for marriage licenses and many more - and if you've been searching only on line, try the public and genealogical libraries - there are some good libraries with Germanic collections. Each village, kreis, state in Germany and elsewhere has its own data and method of recording it (or lack of it!) and there is no huge central archive for all of Germany, even though more and more is going on line each day. Also check everything in familysearch.com and Cyndislist.com if you haven't already. Get on the RootsWeb message boards for Bavaria and Lower Saxony and Military. Ancestry.com is now huge. Try looking under V - since Wilmink would be pronounced Vilmink there. You already have multiple spellings and that's a good sign - collect them all, since they do change over time and place and language. There were no spelling rules until about 125 years ago and many, many people could neither read nor write anyway. Keep looking! Maureen ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

I continue to have trouble finding info on ggrandfather and ggrandmother. They were George Henry Wilmink (Wilming, Wilmick, Wilminck, etc.) and Maria Sophia Hefley (Hefele, Heffley, Heflick,etc.) I have a Henry Wilming coming to US at age 16 in 1865. He said in census records he came in 1865 but ages don't exactly match. George Henry and Mary settled in Vinton County, OH (1870s) and later in Hocking County, OH (1880's amd 1890's). There is some belief that they may have been ibn Bourbon County, KY in late 1860's. Now, here is where I need help and a lot of it. I have attempted to explore German records and even requested some with little or no success. George Henry said in census he was from Hannover but family has always said Konigsbury, East Prussia. Mary Sophia was from Bavaria so Hannover is probably correct. George Henry's father was a soldier so possibly the family originally came from East Prussia to Hannover. How can I find this out? I can find almost no records before 1870 census re Mary Sophia Hafley Wilmink except she is burried in Logan, Ohio. Anyone have any suggestions? Tom Wilmink

Tom To help find some better birth dates. If You search for some records in the U.S.A. , then check out the link http://www.loricase.com/CDs/cdlist.html They want You to use Their FFI ( Family Finders Index ) section , before You e-mail a volunteer for a free lookup. Karl Roussin ====================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "twilmink" <twilmink@adelphia.net> To: <Prussia-Roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 12:51 PM Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Wilmink Family > I continue to have trouble finding info on ggrandfather and ggrandmother. They were George Henry Wilmink (Wilming, Wilmick, Wilminck, etc.) and Maria Sophia Hefley (Hefele, Heffley, Heflick,etc.) I have a Henry Wilming coming to US at age 16 in 1865. He said in census records he came in 1865 but ages don't exactly match. George Henry and Mary settled in Vinton County, OH (1870s) and later in Hocking County, OH (1880's amd 1890's). There is some belief that they may have been ibn Bourbon County, KY in late 1860's. > > Now, here is where I need help and a lot of it. I have attempted to explore German records and even requested some with little or no success. George Henry said in census he was from Hannover but family has always said Konigsbury, East Prussia. Mary Sophia was from Bavaria > so Hannover is probably correct. George Henry's father was a soldier so possibly the family originally came from East Prussia to Hannover. > How can I find this out? > > I can find almost no records before 1870 census re Mary Sophia Hafley Wilmink except she is burried in Logan, Ohio. Anyone have any suggestions? > > Tom Wilmink > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm interested in any kind of help with this: My gggrandfather was Peter Teske, one of the colonists of Paris, Bessarabia, in 1816. The only information I have from the Bessarabian Church Family Books is that he was born in "West Prussia in 1717." Does anyone have any information on West Prussia and the region/village from which he might have originated or how such information might be obtained? Any response is appreciated. Herb Teske "R. Lipprandt" <rloss@bellsouth.net> wrote: Tom, something to keep in mind about the residency in Hamburg. At times, there was no ship or space available for sailing. Immigrants then had to stay in "hotels" until a ship or their immigration space became available. During this stay, they were no longer citizens of where they came from but they (on their papers) had to indicate they were from Hamburg... or Bremen/Bremerhaven or other German ports. Use the information as a guide until something can be written in stone. It (information) may change and have to be tweaked a number of times. Regards, Robert Lipprandt ==================== Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Wilmink Family >I continue to have trouble finding info on ggrandfather and ggrandmother. >They were George Henry Wilmink (Wilming, Wilmick, Wilminck, etc.) and Maria >Sophia Hefley (Hefele, Heffley, Heflick,etc.) I have a Henry Wilming >coming to US at age 16 in 1865. He said in census records he came in 1865 >but ages don't exactly match. George Henry and Mary settled in Vinton >County, OH (1870s) and later in Hocking County, OH (1880's amd 1890's). >There is some belief that they may have been ibn Bourbon County, KY in late >1860's. > > Now, here is where I need help and a lot of it. I have attempted to > explore German records and even requested some with little or no success. > George Henry said in census he was from Hannover but family has always > said Konigsbury, East Prussia. Mary Sophia was from Bavaria > so Hannover is probably correct. George Henry's father was a soldier so > possibly the family originally came from East Prussia to Hannover. > How can I find this out? > > I can find almost no records before 1870 census re Mary Sophia Hafley > Wilmink except she is burried in Logan, Ohio. Anyone have any > suggestions? > > Tom Wilmink > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am trying to get pictures of my ancestors headstone and/or general information on my ancestor Franz Theodore Florian Schubert, his wife and his children. He was buried at what was originally the "General Cemetery in Währing", Now Währing Park and cemetery in Vienna XVIII, 63 Semperstraße. Graveyard is same as for Elisabeth (1st wife) and 12 out of his 14 children. Thank you for your help. Wes _________________________________________________________________ Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as fast as 1 year http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearch=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116

Thanks for the note, Roger. Be careful with what you use as proof - Ship's logs are only proof being on the ship at that specific time and where departed from as well as where their destination was, nothing else. Likewise, census are not proof of anything other than residence on that specific date. I'm glad to hear you're using the other items as clues. You seem to have invested a lot of time so far and I'd hate to see your pedigree go astray on something like gedcoms. Common sense plays such a big part in genealogy and you seem to have your share. Kudos! Without looking at the naturalization cetificate you have, I'm thinking you don't have a copy of the original one. Sounds like some type of abstract. I've never seen a naturalization certificate from anywhere that doesn't have a place for the subject's signature. Just so you know, sometimes those documents are more than one page and the place for signature might be on that second page. Is what you have only one page? You might try and find it in LDS microfilms just to be certain you have the complete document. Did the witnesses sign it, or is it the same handrwriting for both names? Minscule clues, I agree, but it might shed some light on whether you have a copy that's an abstract or not. Always question everything! Continue the good work, Roger. I suggest you get the LDS Research Guide for Germany from their web site. It's free to download and chock full of information about German records types. After all, if you don't know what record type holds the answers you want, how will you ever find it? Good luck, LGO -----Original Message----- >From: Pat or Roger Miller <patroger.miller@earthlink.net> >Sent: Feb 25, 2007 7:22 PM >To: prussia-roots <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> >Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] finding the right church record location andother questions > >LGO, > >Thank you for pointing me toward Meyer's Orts. I hope you aren't confused >by my posting. In no way do I consider GEDCOM files proof. They are >merely pointers for clues. That is why I listed the hard items I had first >(i.e. the Ship's log, the various census, the naturalization certificate, >the tombstone) as well as the assumptions I have made ('my' Jarischau >chosen relative to Lissewken) > >There is no place on the Naturalization certificate for either a signature >or a mark. The Certificate of Naturalization was administered in the State >of Minnesota, county of Winona - not New York. I should have mentioned >that, I'm sorry. There is no reference on his Naturalization certificate >of any filings of intent either. Frankly, it's more of a 'fill in the >blanks' form that noted that Frederick 'personally appeared before' The >Honorable Lloyd Barber and goes on to list the district court, an act date >april 14, 1802 that allows naturalization. It is witnessed by a Frederick >Lambrzska and Jacob Runkels. It also has the line filled in that he has >renounced his allegiance and fidelity to the 'reigning Sovereign of the >Kingdom of Prussia' All of the blanks are filled in with the same >handwriting which matches the signature of the court clerk. > >I will be going to an LDS library in the near future so I can view films. >I'm just trying to get to the right film numbers. I appreciate your input >and hope that others may chime in as well. > >Regards, >Roger Miller

LGO, Thank you for pointing me toward Meyer's Orts. I hope you aren't confused by my posting. In no way do I consider GEDCOM files proof. They are merely pointers for clues. That is why I listed the hard items I had first (i.e. the Ship's log, the various census, the naturalization certificate, the tombstone) as well as the assumptions I have made ('my' Jarischau chosen relative to Lissewken) There is no place on the Naturalization certificate for either a signature or a mark. The Certificate of Naturalization was administered in the State of Minnesota, county of Winona - not New York. I should have mentioned that, I'm sorry. There is no reference on his Naturalization certificate of any filings of intent either. Frankly, it's more of a 'fill in the blanks' form that noted that Frederick 'personally appeared before' The Honorable Lloyd Barber and goes on to list the district court, an act date april 14, 1802 that allows naturalization. It is witnessed by a Frederick Lambrzska and Jacob Runkels. It also has the line filled in that he has renounced his allegiance and fidelity to the 'reigning Sovereign of the Kingdom of Prussia' All of the blanks are filled in with the same handwriting which matches the signature of the court clerk. I will be going to an LDS library in the near future so I can view films. I'm just trying to get to the right film numbers. I appreciate your input and hope that others may chime in as well. Regards, Roger Miller > [Original Message] > From: LGO <le_geefted_one@ix.netcom.com> > To: <patroger.miller@earthlink.net>; <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> > Date: 2/25/2007 3:40:03 PM > Subject: Re: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] finding the right church record location andother questions > > Roger, > > I won't say that information from gedcoms files and on-line sources (including LDS records) is worthless, but it's not far from it in my opinion. Bad research has been around a long time and is not a result of the Internet. The Internet only allows it to grow faster, grow exponentially. > > Too many researchers do not understand what is considered "proof" in genealogy. That's nothing new, but today they can amass information so much faster than before and that quickly mudddies the family tree picture which is posted on-line and shared with others. They scour cyberspace for gedcoms and "connections" to other family and don't take the time to verify any of the information they find from others. Old mistakes are perpetuated, while new ones are created. > > Don't accept anything from gedcom files that doesn't have sources, and ALWAYS check the sources when you do see them. Even diligent reserachers can make mistakes (Lord knows I've had my share). Lack of sources speaks volumes about how the data was found and researchers can make their own decisions as to its credibility simply by that. While the genealogy community is built on sharing, you have to fend for yourself if you want accuracy. > > Insofar as what is found in LDS records, researchers have to understand that LDS records come from several sources and they can't always "hang their hat" on them. Any records that come from the LDS Ancestral File - you couldn't pay me to take the information. Records from the IGI have a higher rate of accuracy, but still look at them with some skepticism. I volunteered at an LDS FHC for 10 years and learned how the different databases were created and what the differences are between them. Verify, verify, verify information you find in it in other records. At least for a couple of more years, that cannot be done on-line. > > If all of the above is practiced, which is going to be the best use of a researcher's time; Trying to verify information from others that will ultimately lead to a wrong ancestor, or finding the proof themselves? > > To get to one of your original questions, you can find out where the church records for Jarischau were kept by using "Meyer's Orts," one of the first steps in trying to cross the pond into German records. I don't know if Dieter on this list has access to a copy, but his recent reply to another posting makes me think he does <grin>. "Meyer's Orts" can be found on microfiche/film at any LDS Family History Center. There are well over 3,000 world wide and you can check for the one closest to you at the LDS web site. > > In reading your posting further, I caution you to be extra carefull in searching for "Frederick Miller" and "Friedrich Mueller" as they were both such common names in history. It's interesting to note that you have his 1868 U.S. Naturalization, and yet all the census state he could not read or write. Did he sign his naturalization papers with his "mark?" > > Finding his declaration of intent from New York is not impossible as it might sound. Didn't his naturalization papers that you have list the date and court where he filed his first papers? If not, there is an index to naturalizations in all courts in NYC that LDS has on microfilm and can be rented at your nearest LDS FHC. Of course, LDS also has virtually all of the records also on microfilm. > > While I am always suggesting researchers consult LDS microfilms, it's not because I'm a member of the church or anything like that. I'm not. It's because I believe in finding the easiest (and most economical) route to the "proof" I need to prove my ancestors. Until the next couple of years, that has always been using LDS microfilms. LDS has begun digitizing all of their over 2 MILLION reels of microfilm and will be slowly placing them on-line at their web site. THEN, researchers can find the majority of proofs they need on-line. > > Good luck, > > LGO > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Pat or Roger Miller <patroger.miller@earthlink.net> > >Sent: Feb 25, 2007 2:11 PM > >To: prussia-roots <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> > >Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] finding the right church record location and other questions > > > >Dear List, > > > >This is a long post, but I feel I need to lay groundwork before asking my questions. > > > >I have narrowed down my search for my ggGrandfather Friedrich M��ller of Jarischau, Kreis Berent, West Prussia. My question is: Where were the Evangelische church records for the Jarischau area recorded? The main possibilities are Pogutken or Sch��neck - both of Kreis Berent. I have been at the LDS website and see that there are some records for each. > > > >I am aware that there is more than one Jarischau (the other near Schleisen). However, research has found that his wife Euphrosine Brandstaedter came from Lissewken (Li��ewken) about 3 km from the Jarischau in Kreis Berent. They were married at least 9 - 10 years prior to coming to America, so my thinking is that they must have lived near one another to have met. > > > >Here are the key dates and locations I can verify. I am using the spellings as they were noted on the various records, so you will see a number of variations. Friedrich, Euphrosine and children Ludwig, Carl, Julius and Hermann came over on the Ship Shakespeare arriving at Castle Garden, New York on August 20, 1856 from Bremen. I have a copy of the ships log and see their names and ages and that they were heading to Wisconsin. Eventually they settled in Winona, Minnesota - right across the river from Wisconsin. I have been to their grave in Winona and took down the following dates: > > > >Friedrich Mueller born 30 Mai, 1820 (other records say June 1, 1820) died 22 Sept, 1896 > >-Various GEDCOM records list Friedrich's parents as Christian and Elisabeth with no other dates or locations - Dead end > >Efrosine Mueller born 21 Dec, 1821 (LDS has her born 14 Oct, 1821 in Lissewken) so December may be the christening date) died 21 Apr, 1899 > >-The LDS record has her name as Euphrosina Brandstaedter > >-The LDS record lists her parents as Gottleib Georg Brandstaedter and Chonstansia Pestke > > > >The cemetary did not have a record of the church involved in the interment.s I am going back to Winona this spring to see if I can make a connection at the various Lutheran churches there and at the courthouse for land records. > > > >In the various census that I have, I see Friedrich M��ller become Fredrick Miller - no middle initial or name is ever seen except for 1870 where he is listed as Fred K. Miller > >-I have a copy of his naturalization March 30, 1868 he became Frederick Miller, US citizen. > >Euphrosine has also been spelled as Efrosine and Aprozina. I'm sure these are all best attempts by census takers to deal with how they heard the names. It is always noted that Friedrich and Euphrosine do not read or write. > > > >My questions are many, of course, but let's begin with: > >-Which church district or parish would have presided over Jarishau? > >-I have contacted one person who published a GEDCOM listing Friedrich's parents as Christian and Elisabeth, but she didn't have any record of where the names came from - any ideas form this list? > >-How do I find his Declaration of Intent in New York? What information might that yield? > >-The biggest mystery is that I see no record of siblings for Friedrich or Euphrosine. They were both from farm families where extra children make the work easier. There are three possibilities.1) Both were only children - not seemingly likely. 2) Siblings were left behind. 3) Siblings also emigrated, but were never noted or tracked. I would love to make a connection across the Atlantic to pursue these three possibilities. > > > >I feel I am very close to connecting my USA roots to the other side of the Atlantic and any help would be appreciated. > > > >Family names: M��ller, Mueller, Miller, Brandst��tder, Brandstetter, Brandstaedter, Lemke, Pestke, Kruse, Schr��der, Schmidt, Schlarmann, Horstman > >Family locations USA: Winona, Miltona, Leaf Valley, Alexandria in Minnesota. Alma, Wisconsin. > >Family locations Prussia dna Germany: Jarischau and Lissewken in Kreis Berent, West Prussia, Thorst, Holdorf and Lohne in Germany > > > >Roger Miller > >PS: This is a terrific list. I follow it closely and it has helped me many times in the past by seeing how others have had questions answered.

Beyers Here is a record of Their marriage and Her Parents names. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Catharina STOLTS Compact Disc #89 Pin #847407 Sex: F ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Event(s): Christening: 19 Mar 1740 Place: Death: 19 Jun 1788 Place: Kaap ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Parents: Father: Willem STOLTS Disc #89 Pin #848078 Mother: Johanna van BELEN Disc #89 Pin #848079 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Marriage(s): Spouse: Christian Friedrich HERBST Disc #89 Pin #847406 Marriage: 10 Oct 1756 Place: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Notes and Sources: Notes: None Sources: None ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Submitter: Willem J. HERBST P.O.Box 296 Muizenberg 7950 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Submission Search: 2764492-0715104230255 URL: CD-ROM: Pedigree Resource File - Compact Disc #89 CD-ROM Features: Pedigree View, Family View, Individual View, Reports, Downloadable GEDCOM files, Notes and Sources. Order Pedigree Resource File CD-ROMS To find more You may be able to contact that submitter. Karl Roussin ===================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beyers Herbst" <beyers@eventsplanner.co.za> To: <PRUSSIA-ROOTS@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:10 PM Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] Christian Friedrich HERBST > Hi there, > > > > I'm researching my family tree and have traced back my ancestors to > Konigsberg, East Prussia. I would appreciate any help on finding more > information about Christian Friedrich HERBST. He was a sword maker and > arrived in South Africa in 1752 (presumably from East Prussia). Married > Catharina STOLTS on 10 Oct 1756. Died 1794. > > > > Any help would be appreciated, thanks. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRUSSIA-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Roger, I won't say that information from gedcoms files and on-line sources (including LDS records) is worthless, but it's not far from it in my opinion. Bad research has been around a long time and is not a result of the Internet. The Internet only allows it to grow faster, grow exponentially. Too many researchers do not understand what is considered "proof" in genealogy. That's nothing new, but today they can amass information so much faster than before and that quickly mudddies the family tree picture which is posted on-line and shared with others. They scour cyberspace for gedcoms and "connections" to other family and don't take the time to verify any of the information they find from others. Old mistakes are perpetuated, while new ones are created. Don't accept anything from gedcom files that doesn't have sources, and ALWAYS check the sources when you do see them. Even diligent reserachers can make mistakes (Lord knows I've had my share). Lack of sources speaks volumes about how the data was found and researchers can make their own decisions as to its credibility simply by that. While the genealogy community is built on sharing, you have to fend for yourself if you want accuracy. Insofar as what is found in LDS records, researchers have to understand that LDS records come from several sources and they can't always "hang their hat" on them. Any records that come from the LDS Ancestral File - you couldn't pay me to take the information. Records from the IGI have a higher rate of accuracy, but still look at them with some skepticism. I volunteered at an LDS FHC for 10 years and learned how the different databases were created and what the differences are between them. Verify, verify, verify information you find in it in other records. At least for a couple of more years, that cannot be done on-line. If all of the above is practiced, which is going to be the best use of a researcher's time; Trying to verify information from others that will ultimately lead to a wrong ancestor, or finding the proof themselves? To get to one of your original questions, you can find out where the church records for Jarischau were kept by using "Meyer's Orts," one of the first steps in trying to cross the pond into German records. I don't know if Dieter on this list has access to a copy, but his recent reply to another posting makes me think he does <grin>. "Meyer's Orts" can be found on microfiche/film at any LDS Family History Center. There are well over 3,000 world wide and you can check for the one closest to you at the LDS web site. In reading your posting further, I caution you to be extra carefull in searching for "Frederick Miller" and "Friedrich Mueller" as they were both such common names in history. It's interesting to note that you have his 1868 U.S. Naturalization, and yet all the census state he could not read or write. Did he sign his naturalization papers with his "mark?" Finding his declaration of intent from New York is not impossible as it might sound. Didn't his naturalization papers that you have list the date and court where he filed his first papers? If not, there is an index to naturalizations in all courts in NYC that LDS has on microfilm and can be rented at your nearest LDS FHC. Of course, LDS also has virtually all of the records also on microfilm. While I am always suggesting researchers consult LDS microfilms, it's not because I'm a member of the church or anything like that. I'm not. It's because I believe in finding the easiest (and most economical) route to the "proof" I need to prove my ancestors. Until the next couple of years, that has always been using LDS microfilms. LDS has begun digitizing all of their over 2 MILLION reels of microfilm and will be slowly placing them on-line at their web site. THEN, researchers can find the majority of proofs they need on-line. Good luck, LGO -----Original Message----- >From: Pat or Roger Miller <patroger.miller@earthlink.net> >Sent: Feb 25, 2007 2:11 PM >To: prussia-roots <prussia-roots@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [PRUSSIA-ROOTS] finding the right church record location and other questions > >Dear List, > >This is a long post, but I feel I need to lay groundwork before asking my questions. > >I have narrowed down my search for my ggGrandfather Friedrich Müller of Jarischau, Kreis Berent, West Prussia. My question is: Where were the Evangelische church records for the Jarischau area recorded? The main possibilities are Pogutken or Schöneck - both of Kreis Berent. I have been at the LDS website and see that there are some records for each. > >I am aware that there is more than one Jarischau (the other near Schleisen). However, research has found that his wife Euphrosine Brandstaedter came from Lissewken (Lißewken) about 3 km from the Jarischau in Kreis Berent. They were married at least 9 - 10 years prior to coming to America, so my thinking is that they must have lived near one another to have met. > >Here are the key dates and locations I can verify. I am using the spellings as they were noted on the various records, so you will see a number of variations. Friedrich, Euphrosine and children Ludwig, Carl, Julius and Hermann came over on the Ship Shakespeare arriving at Castle Garden, New York on August 20, 1856 from Bremen. I have a copy of the ships log and see their names and ages and that they were heading to Wisconsin. Eventually they settled in Winona, Minnesota - right across the river from Wisconsin. I have been to their grave in Winona and took down the following dates: > >Friedrich Mueller born 30 Mai, 1820 (other records say June 1, 1820) died 22 Sept, 1896 >-Various GEDCOM records list Friedrich's parents as Christian and Elisabeth with no other dates or locations - Dead end >Efrosine Mueller born 21 Dec, 1821 (LDS has her born 14 Oct, 1821 in Lissewken) so December may be the christening date) died 21 Apr, 1899 >-The LDS record has her name as Euphrosina Brandstaedter >-The LDS record lists her parents as Gottleib Georg Brandstaedter and Chonstansia Pestke > >The cemetary did not have a record of the church involved in the interment.s I am going back to Winona this spring to see if I can make a connection at the various Lutheran churches there and at the courthouse for land records. > >In the various census that I have, I see Friedrich Müller become Fredrick Miller - no middle initial or name is ever seen except for 1870 where he is listed as Fred K. Miller >-I have a copy of his naturalization March 30, 1868 he became Frederick Miller, US citizen. >Euphrosine has also been spelled as Efrosine and Aprozina. I'm sure these are all best attempts by census takers to deal with how they heard the names. It is always noted that Friedrich and Euphrosine do not read or write. > >My questions are many, of course, but let's begin with: >-Which church district or parish would have presided over Jarishau? >-I have contacted one person who published a GEDCOM listing Friedrich's parents as Christian and Elisabeth, but she didn't have any record of where the names came from - any ideas form this list? >-How do I find his Declaration of Intent in New York? What information might that yield? >-The biggest mystery is that I see no record of siblings for Friedrich or Euphrosine. They were both from farm families where extra children make the work easier. There are three possibilities.1) Both were only children - not seemingly likely. 2) Siblings were left behind. 3) Siblings also emigrated, but were never noted or tracked. I would love to make a connection across the Atlantic to pursue these three possibilities. > >I feel I am very close to connecting my USA roots to the other side of the Atlantic and any help would be appreciated. > >Family names: Müller, Mueller, Miller, Brandstätder, Brandstetter, Brandstaedter, Lemke, Pestke, Kruse, Schröder, Schmidt, Schlarmann, Horstman >Family locations USA: Winona, Miltona, Leaf Valley, Alexandria in Minnesota. Alma, Wisconsin. >Family locations Prussia dna Germany: Jarischau and Lissewken in Kreis Berent, West Prussia, Thorst, Holdorf and Lohne in Germany > >Roger Miller >PS: This is a terrific list. I follow it closely and it has helped me many times in the past by seeing how others have had questions answered.

Neu Doeberitz ( Neu D"oberitz ), Kreis Regenwalde Ev. - Luth. Church: Stargordt, Kreis Regenwalde Catholic Church: Gruenhoff ( Gr"unhoff ), Kreis Regenwalde Civil Registration Office: Stargordt, Kreis Regenwalde 57 inhabitants in 1819 today Nowa Dobrzyca, Poland Dieter Schimmelpfennig Heimatkreisbearbeiter -- Der Kreis Belgard-Schivelbein in Pommern http://www.belgard.org Historische Einwohnerdatenbank / Historical Inhabitants Database http://www.belgard.org/Namen/index.htm Belgard-Schivelbein Mailingliste http://de.groups.yahoo.com/group/Kreis-Belgard

Dear List, This is a long post, but I feel I need to lay groundwork before asking my questions. I have narrowed down my search for my ggGrandfather Friedrich M�ller of Jarischau, Kreis Berent, West Prussia. My question is: Where were the Evangelische church records for the Jarischau area recorded? The main possibilities are Pogutken or Sch�neck - both of Kreis Berent. I have been at the LDS website and see that there are some records for each. I am aware that there is more than one Jarischau (the other near Schleisen). However, research has found that his wife Euphrosine Brandstaedter came from Lissewken (Li�ewken) about 3 km from the Jarischau in Kreis Berent. They were married at least 9 - 10 years prior to coming to America, so my thinking is that they must have lived near one another to have met. Here are the key dates and locations I can verify. I am using the spellings as they were noted on the various records, so you will see a number of variations. Friedrich, Euphrosine and children Ludwig, Carl, Julius and Hermann came over on the Ship Shakespeare arriving at Castle Garden, New York on August 20, 1856 from Bremen. I have a copy of the ships log and see their names and ages and that they were heading to Wisconsin. Eventually they settled in Winona, Minnesota - right across the river from Wisconsin. I have been to their grave in Winona and took down the following dates: Friedrich Mueller born 30 Mai, 1820 (other records say June 1, 1820) died 22 Sept, 1896 -Various GEDCOM records list Friedrich's parents as Christian and Elisabeth with no other dates or locations - Dead end Efrosine Mueller born 21 Dec, 1821 (LDS has her born 14 Oct, 1821 in Lissewken) so December may be the christening date) died 21 Apr, 1899 -The LDS record has her name as Euphrosina Brandstaedter -The LDS record lists her parents as Gottleib Georg Brandstaedter and Chonstansia Pestke The cemetary did not have a record of the church involved in the interment.s I am going back to Winona this spring to see if I can make a connection at the various Lutheran churches there and at the courthouse for land records. In the various census that I have, I see Friedrich M�ller become Fredrick Miller - no middle initial or name is ever seen except for 1870 where he is listed as Fred K. Miller -I have a copy of his naturalization March 30, 1868 he became Frederick Miller, US citizen. Euphrosine has also been spelled as Efrosine and Aprozina. I'm sure these are all best attempts by census takers to deal with how they heard the names. It is always noted that Friedrich and Euphrosine do not read or write. My questions are many, of course, but let's begin with: -Which church district or parish would have presided over Jarishau? -I have contacted one person who published a GEDCOM listing Friedrich's parents as Christian and Elisabeth, but she didn't have any record of where the names came from - any ideas form this list? -How do I find his Declaration of Intent in New York? What information might that yield? -The biggest mystery is that I see no record of siblings for Friedrich or Euphrosine. They were both from farm families where extra children make the work easier. There are three possibilities.1) Both were only children - not seemingly likely. 2) Siblings were left behind. 3) Siblings also emigrated, but were never noted or tracked. I would love to make a connection across the Atlantic to pursue these three possibilities. I feel I am very close to connecting my USA roots to the other side of the Atlantic and any help would be appreciated. Family names: M�ller, Mueller, Miller, Brandst�tder, Brandstetter, Brandstaedter, Lemke, Pestke, Kruse, Schr�der, Schmidt, Schlarmann, Horstman Family locations USA: Winona, Miltona, Leaf Valley, Alexandria in Minnesota. Alma, Wisconsin. Family locations Prussia dna Germany: Jarischau and Lissewken in Kreis Berent, West Prussia, Thorst, Holdorf and Lohne in Germany Roger Miller PS: This is a terrific list. I follow it closely and it has helped me many times in the past by seeing how others have had questions answered.

Just check the LDS Library on-line catalog for "Regenwalde" at their web site. There are many microfilmed records listed that can be rented at your nearest LDS Family History Center. When at the FHC, look in "Meyer's Orts" for where Neu Doebritz church and civil records were kept. Good luck, LGO -----Original Message----- >From: Arletta & Jim Webster <webster7767@sbcglobal.net> > >Information from the Bethel Cemetery in Renville County, MN lists Herman Albert Reinke, husband of Bertha Duenow Reinke and brother of Albertina Reinke Sell, b. 10 Mar 1845 in Neu Doebritz, Kr Regenwalde, Pommern, Pr. I believe Neu Doebritz is in Poland now. Can anybody help us find it's Polish name and/or identify the church parish associated with Neu Doebritz.