José, It can be fiction, and there is much fiction, good and bad, in genealogy. However I am not a documentation fundamentalist - I mean sometimes family tradition has got it right - without documents (sometimes quite wrong, it's true) . But it can't be dismissed. Now, some families have lost their traditions, their memories of their lineages. But some, not many I admit, have not. I had a football accident on one foot- two of us kicked each other on either foot, so I've been jumping in and out and your mail escaped me as well as others. Please, kindly send it again. Anyway I've been learning tons with you guys, in this forum , -) Cheers, Miguel On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:16 PM, JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com>wrote: > Miguel, > I posted my reply without seeing your response to Darlene. I don't know if > I am worth that much because I have learned from you and Paulo that unless > you have the documentation...it could be fiction. However, I have a feeling > about this one. If the other children are in Hawaii then we have got it! > Now I also sent you an e-mail earlier last week. Did you get? I had > a couple,e of questions for you. Do you want me to re-post it? > > José Fernandes > > > ________________________________ > From: Miguel de Castro Henriques <migueldecastrohenriques@gmail.com> > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 12:41:18 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez > > Darlene, > > José was on spot, Just like a professional genealogist, but then this > later would have asked for a huge fee for that piece of accurate info > delivered with godspeed. > > Anywaym what puzzles me is the dropping out the prestigious surname > Drummond in exchange for Gaspar. (it has no history, no charisma). They > also had Pestana, Vasconcelos and Câmara to choose from. The last ones also > representing the oldest families in Madeira. > > A number of people would cut a finger to have Drummond in their name - as > it connects to Scottish (Stewarts) and English royalty. The Drummond name > was cherished in Madeira and in Porto Santo. So, that's quite puzzling why > they dropped one of the crown jewels ... > > Anyway, under the Portuguese law you're entitled to use any surname that > yur ancestors, both in the maternal and paternal line have used. It's not > at all uncommon that a surname, after being absent 3 or more generations, > re-surfaces. In Portugal, in general, if on the mother side the surnames > were more prestigious people would use them. > > Of course, in Portugal we have a quite different approach to names and > surnames...We're a 8 centuries old country - so the hunting area is > pharaminous. > > Cheers, cousin! I (and several others on this list) descend many times from > the first Drummond - the famous João Drummond, gallant scottish knight, > who fought besides the legendary Joan of Arc, in France, ( he was part of > the Légion Écossaise. Quite recently William Sinclair, a distinguished > historian and genealogist from Scotland, has confirmed this) and came to > Madeira, in the early period of settlement. > > Miguel de Castro Henriques > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jacqui Marcella <JMarcela@calwisp.com > >wrote: > > > Have you checked Familysearch.org? They have a good collection of Hawaii > > births, marriages and deaths. There is a wealth of free information and > > I found a lot on my husband's family there. > > > > On 5/6/2012 9:09 PM, Dar Creuzer wrote: > > > I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather > > Manuel > > > Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know > > where , > > > in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar > > on > > > the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. > > They > > > had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, > > John, > > > Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their > > > children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- > > Gertrude > > > and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as > he > > > was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in > > > Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii. Marie was > > born > > > 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. > > > I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents > > > were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't > find > > > anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his > > > family? > > > I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. > > > thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Miguel I really believe that I have the right Drumond. All Darlene has to do is find if the children , other than Maria got to Hawaii. I suspect the document fundamentalist was Paulo Perneta. Anyway it is always nice and comforting to have the documents to back it up. Although, when it comes to Madeira only God and the priests know how much was fudged. I have a case of a Baltazar Pires from Caniço marrying a Maria Mendes in Santana in 1622.  The document shows no parents for Baltazar but as a coincidence the "vigário" is Cristovão Pires! What to make of it? Aren't you taking this Madeiran thing too far? I mean there is only one Cristiano Ronaldo. Just because you are Madeiran...Hope you recover from your football(soccer) injury. How is the other fellow? No politics involved? Cheers.   José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Miguel de Castro Henriques <migueldecastrohenriques@gmail.com> To: JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com>; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 6:34:29 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez José, It can be fiction, and there is much fiction, good and bad, in genealogy. However I am not a documentation fundamentalist - I mean sometimes family tradition has got it right - without documents (sometimes quite wrong, it's true) . But it can't be dismissed. Now, some families have lost their traditions, their memories of their lineages. But some, not many I admit, have not. I had a football accident on one foot- two of us kicked each other on either foot,  so I've been jumping in  and out and your mail escaped me as well as others. Please, kindly send it again. Anyway I've been learning tons with you guys, in this forum  , -) Cheers, Miguel On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:16 PM, JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com> wrote: Miguel, >I posted my reply without seeing your response to Darlene. I don't know if I am worth that much because I have learned from you and Paulo that unless you have the documentation...it could be fiction. However, I have a feeling about this one. If the other children are in Hawaii then we have got it! >Now I also sent you an e-mail earlier last week. Did you get? I had a couple,e of questions for you. Do you want me to re-post it? >  >José Fernandes > > >________________________________ > From: Miguel de Castro Henriques <migueldecastrohenriques@gmail.com> >To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com >Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 12:41:18 PM > >Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez > > >Darlene, > >José was on spot, Just like a professional genealogist,  but then this >later would have asked for a huge fee for that piece of accurate info >delivered with godspeed. > >Anywaym what puzzles me is the dropping out the prestigious surname >Drummond in exchange for Gaspar. (it has no history, no charisma).  They >also had Pestana, Vasconcelos and Câmara to choose from. The last ones also >representing the oldest families in Madeira. > >A number of people would cut a finger to have Drummond in their name - as >it connects to Scottish (Stewarts) and English royalty. The Drummond name >was cherished in Madeira and in Porto Santo. So, that's quite puzzling why >they dropped one of the crown jewels ... > >Anyway, under the Portuguese law you're entitled to use any surname that >yur ancestors, both in the maternal and paternal line have used. It's not >at all uncommon that a surname, after being absent 3 or more generations, >re-surfaces. In Portugal, in general, if on the mother side the surnames >were more prestigious people would use them. > >Of course, in Portugal we have a quite different approach to names and >surnames...We're a 8 centuries old country - so the hunting area is >pharaminous. > >Cheers, cousin! I (and several others on this list) descend many times from >the first Drummond  - the famous João Drummond, gallant scottish knight, >who fought besides the legendary Joan of Arc, in France, ( he was part of >the Légion Écossaise. Quite recently William Sinclair, a distinguished >historian and genealogist from Scotland, has confirmed this) and came to >Madeira,  in the early period of settlement. > >Miguel de Castro Henriques > > > > > > > > > > > >On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jacqui Marcella <JMarcela@calwisp.com>wrote: > >> Have you checked Familysearch.org? They have a good collection of Hawaii >> births, marriages and deaths. There is a wealth of free information and >> I found a lot on my husband's family there. >> >> On 5/6/2012 9:09 PM, Dar Creuzer wrote: >> > I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather >> Manuel >> > Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know >> where , >> > in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar >> on >> > the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. >> They >> > had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, >> John, >> > Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their >> > children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- >> Gertrude >> > and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he >> > was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in >> > Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii.  Marie was >> born >> > 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. >> > I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents >> > were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find >> > anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his >> > family? >> > I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. >> > thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >