Unsubscribe From: prt-madeira-request@rootsweb.com Subject: PRT-MADEIRA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 55 To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 07:42:55 -0600 --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: cece@soccer4all.com To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com; jose.fernandes@rogers.com Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 07:12:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Perestrelo Ancestry - Attn: Miguel Jose, I'm having a bit of a problem following this. The line that you wrote, and which I copied below, is the one confusing me. >>There is a second captain who was not a Perestrlo but had married a Perestrelo girl. It seems his mother-in-law ( Bartolomeu II's mother) sold him the >>island. Eventually the King restored Bartolomeu II's right. So this is what I have from multiple sources: Bartholomeu Perestrelo (the 1st capitao) m. Isabel Monoiz Baretto their son Bartholmeu Perestrelo (2nd capitao-and my reason for not understanding the above-how is he not a Perestrelo??) married Guiomar Texiera and their son Bartholomeu Perestrelo married Aldonca Delgado Camara. ( I assume this Bartholmeu was the 3rd capitao??) Pat, All of this in agreement with what you have below. But then...I have a different take on the next generation. I show that while Bartholomeu and Aldonca did have a son named Diogo... Bartholomeu also had a second marriage with Solanda (daughter of Joao Teixeira and Felipa de Mendonca Furtado) and they also had a Diogo together. This second Diogo is the one thaqt I show married Maria Taveira. anyone care to chime in? and yes I am also descended from the original Bartholmeu Perestrelo. Cece ----- Original Message ----- From: "JOSE FERNANDES" <jose.fernandes@rogers.com> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, May 5, 2012 7:02:14 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Perestrelo Ancestry - Attn: Miguel Pat, I will get in the middle of this because I also posted something on this for Miguel and I need to correct it. There is a second captain who was not a Perestrlo but had married a Perestrelo girl. It seems his mother-in-law ( Bartolomeu II's mother) sold him the island. Eventually the King restored Bartolomeu II's right. His son Bartolomeu III murdered his wife. She was Aldonça Delgado, a granddaughter of Zarco. eventually he was sent away and died in the Algarves. There is a first son named Garcia who unfortunately, like his father, murdered his wife. This happened while his father was still alive. It seems that he may have governed the "capitania" but was never recognized as captain. Thus Diogo, our magnificent and not a murder ancestor, inherited Porto Santo. The good thing here is that Diogo was not a Bartolomeu! That is confucing. Have I got this right? José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Pat Corbera <PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net> To: Prt-Madeira List Group <PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 5, 2012 5:53:13 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Perestrelo Ancestry - Attn: Miguel Hello Miguel, In matching your posted Perestrelo ancestry to what I have in my file I find the following possible error ***** I would appreicate your input... Pat You wrote the following: "BTW the name Perestrelo is the Portuguese version of the Italian name Palestrelli - translation "by or through the stars" . Apparently the first Palestrelli was a jewish astrologer...in the Italian "trecento".." "As many others with Madeiran ascendancies I also descend from Bartolomeu Perestrelo." "1) (I agree) Bartolomeu Perestrelo, 1º capitão –donatário da ilha do Porto Santo (1446), teve de sua 3ª mulher D. Isabel Moniz:" "2) (I agree) Bartolomeu Pesrestrelo, 2º capitão-donatário de Porto Santo (1473) casou com Guiomar Teixeira (filha de Trsitão Vaz), tiveram:" "3) (I agree) Bartolomeu Pesrestrelo, 3º Capit.-Donatário (1529) casou com Aldonça Câmara (neta paterna de João Gonçalves Zarco), tiveram:" NOTE: *****(It is here that I have Garcia Perestrelo being the son of Bartolomeu and Aldonca. ( I have Garcia C.c. Maria Taveira, their line then continues with their son Diogo Soares Perestrelo C.c. Joana de Castro e Menezes). "4) (I agree) Diogo Soares Perestrelo, 4º Cap.-don. (1545) casou com Joana de Castro e Menezes,tiveram:" ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/4984 - Release Date: 05/07/12 --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: cece@soccer4all.com To: jose.fernandes@rogers.com; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 07:48:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Perestrelo Ancestry - Attn: Miguel Jose one more question... you said there was a "first son" Garcia that also murdered his wife...it appears you are speaking of the son that Bartholomeu had with Aldonca (before he murdered her)..correct? Do we know what his murdered wife's name was? -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of JOSE FERNANDES Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 9:02 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Perestrelo Ancestry - Attn: Miguel Pat, I will get in the middle of this because I also posted something on this for Miguel and I need to correct it. There is a second captain who was not a Perestrlo but had married a Perestrelo girl. It seems his mother-in-law ( Bartolomeu II's mother) sold him the island. Eventually the King restored Bartolomeu II's right. His son Bartolomeu III murdered his wife. She was Aldonça Delgado, a granddaughter of Zarco. eventually he was sent away and died in the Algarves. There is a first son named Garcia who unfortunately, like his father, murdered his wife. This happened while his father was still alive. It seems that he may have governed the "capitania" but was never recognized as captain. Thus Diogo, our magnificent and not a murder ancestor, inherited Porto Santo. The good thing here is that Diogo was not a Bartolomeu! That is confucing. Have I got this right? José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Pat Corbera <PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net> To: Prt-Madeira List Group <PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 5, 2012 5:53:13 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Perestrelo Ancestry - Attn: Miguel Hello Miguel, In matching your posted Perestrelo ancestry to what I have in my file I find the following possible error ***** I would appreicate your input... Pat You wrote the following: "BTW the name Perestrelo is the Portuguese version of the Italian name Palestrelli - translation "by or through the stars" . Apparently the first Palestrelli was a jewish astrologer...in the Italian "trecento".." "As many others with Madeiran ascendancies I also descend from Bartolomeu Perestrelo." "1) (I agree) Bartolomeu Perestrelo, 1º capitão –donatário da ilha do Porto Santo (1446), teve de sua 3ª mulher D. Isabel Moniz:" "2) (I agree) Bartolomeu Pesrestrelo, 2º capitão-donatário de Porto Santo (1473) casou com Guiomar Teixeira (filha de Trsitão Vaz), tiveram:" "3) (I agree) Bartolomeu Pesrestrelo, 3º Capit.-Donatário (1529) casou com Aldonça Câmara (neta paterna de João Gonçalves Zarco), tiveram:" NOTE: *****(It is here that I have Garcia Perestrelo being the son of Bartolomeu and Aldonca. ( I have Garcia C.c. Maria Taveira, their line then continues with their son Diogo Soares Perestrelo C.c. Joana de Castro e Menezes). "4) (I agree) Diogo Soares Perestrelo, 4º Cap.-don. (1545) casou com Joana de Castro e Menezes,tiveram:" ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2411/4979 - Release Date: 05/05/12 --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: jose.fernandes@rogers.com To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 06:27:42 -0700 Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez my cents worth...redheads could come from many different places including Algiers and Morocco. I am not being funny here. Many current people from Port Santo may also descend from "arab" and "berber" stock. At one time, it is said there were about no more than 30 people left in the island after the pirate raids of the 1600's. José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Louise Polsky <pitinha@cox.net> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 12:38:05 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez Thanks, Miguel, for your information on the Drummonds. My third great grandmother was a Drummond. There are several red heads in my family from Porto Santo and I've wondered if that red hair came down from the Drummond line. Louise Pitta Polsky On May 7, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > Darlene, > > José was on spot, Just like a professional genealogist, but then this > later would have asked for a huge fee for that piece of accurate info > delivered with godspeed. > > Anywaym what puzzles me is the dropping out the prestigious surname > Drummond in exchange for Gaspar. (it has no history, no charisma). They > also had Pestana, Vasconcelos and Câmara to choose from. The last ones also > representing the oldest families in Madeira. > > A number of people would cut a finger to have Drummond in their name - as > it connects to Scottish (Stewarts) and English royalty. The Drummond name > was cherished in Madeira and in Porto Santo. So, that's quite puzzling why > they dropped one of the crown jewels ... > > Anyway, under the Portuguese law you're entitled to use any surname that > yur ancestors, both in the maternal and paternal line have used. It's not > at all uncommon that a surname, after being absent 3 or more generations, > re-surfaces. In Portugal, in general, if on the mother side the surnames > were more prestigious people would use them. > > Of course, in Portugal we have a quite different approach to names and > surnames...We're a 8 centuries old country - so the hunting area is > pharaminous. > > Cheers, cousin! I (and several others on this list) descend many times from > the first Drummond - the famous João Drummond, gallant scottish knight, > who fought besides the legendary Joan of Arc, in France, ( he was part of > the Légion Écossaise. Quite recently William Sinclair, a distinguished > historian and genealogist from Scotland, has confirmed this) and came to > Madeira, in the early period of settlement. > > Miguel de Castro Henriques > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jacqui Marcella <JMarcela@calwisp.com>wrote: > >> Have you checked Familysearch.org? They have a good collection of Hawaii >> births, marriages and deaths. There is a wealth of free information and >> I found a lot on my husband's family there. >> >> On 5/6/2012 9:09 PM, Dar Creuzer wrote: >>> I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather >> Manuel >>> Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know >> where , >>> in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar >> on >>> the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. >> They >>> had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, >> John, >>> Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their >>> children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- >> Gertrude >>> and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he >>> was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in >>> Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii. Marie was >> born >>> 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. >>> I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents >>> were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find >>> anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his >>> family? >>> I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. >>> thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --Forwarded Message Attachment--From: jose.fernandes@rogers.com To: cece@soccer4all.com; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 06:41:52 -0700 Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Perestrelo Ancestry - Attn: Miguel Cecce, Well...I knew a bit of confusion would get you out .. There are too many Bartolomeu's. There is Bartolomeu I. He married 3 times. When he died, his wife, tried to sell the island. She did sell it to Pedro Correia, who was not a Perestrelo but married to one of the girls. Technically he was the 2nd Captain. However, when Bartolomeu II reached maturity he appealed to the King who restored his rights. I think Pedro Correia reached the conclusion that coming second would be to his own interests. The island by then was in decline. I hope that clears things...or not. José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Cece Camara <cece@soccer4all.com> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com; 'JOSE FERNANDES' <jose.fernandes@rogers.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 8:12:39 AM Subject: RE: [PT-MADEIRA] Perestrelo Ancestry - Attn: Miguel Jose, I'm having a bit of a problem following this. The line that you wrote, and which I copied below, is the one confusing me. >>There is a second captain who was not a Perestrlo but had married a Perestrelo girl. It seems his mother-in-law ( Bartolomeu II's mother) sold him the >>island. Eventually the King restored Bartolomeu II's right. So this is what I have from multiple sources: Bartholomeu Perestrelo (the 1st capitao) m. Isabel Monoiz Baretto their son Bartholmeu Perestrelo (2nd capitao-and my reason for not understanding the above-how is he not a Perestrelo??) married Guiomar Texiera and their son Bartholomeu Perestrelo married Aldonca Delgado Camara. ( I assume this Bartholmeu was the 3rd capitao??) Pat, All of this in agreement with what you have below. But then...I have a different take on the next generation. I show that while Bartholomeu and Aldonca did have a son named Diogo... Bartholomeu also had a second marriage with Solanda (daughter of Joao Teixeira and Felipa de Mendonca Furtado) and they also had a Diogo together. This second Diogo is the one thaqt I show married Maria Taveira. anyone care to chime in? and yes I am also descended from the original Bartholmeu Perestrelo. Cece ----- Original Message ----- From: "JOSE FERNANDES" <jose.fernandes@rogers.com> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, May 5, 2012 7:02:14 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Perestrelo Ancestry - Attn: Miguel Pat, I will get in the middle of this because I also posted something on this for Miguel and I need to correct it. There is a second captain who was not a Perestrlo but had married a Perestrelo girl. It seems his mother-in-law ( Bartolomeu II's mother) sold him the island. Eventually the King restored Bartolomeu II's right. His son Bartolomeu III murdered his wife. She was Aldonça Delgado, a granddaughter of Zarco. eventually he was sent away and died in the Algarves. There is a first son named Garcia who unfortunately, like his father, murdered his wife. This happened while his father was still alive. It seems that he may have governed the "capitania" but was never recognized as captain. Thus Diogo, our magnificent and not a murder ancestor, inherited Porto Santo. The good thing here is that Diogo was not a Bartolomeu! That is confucing. Have I got this right? José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Pat Corbera <PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net> To: Prt-Madeira List Group <PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 5, 2012 5:53:13 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Perestrelo Ancestry - Attn: Miguel Hello Miguel, In matching your posted Perestrelo ancestry to what I have in my file I find the following possible error ***** I would appreicate your input... Pat You wrote the following: "BTW the name Perestrelo is the Portuguese version of the Italian name Palestrelli - translation "by or through the stars" . Apparently the first Palestrelli was a jewish astrologer...in the Italian "trecento".." "As many others with Madeiran ascendancies I also descend from Bartolomeu Perestrelo." "1) (I agree) Bartolomeu Perestrelo, 1º capitão –donatário da ilha do Porto Santo (1446), teve de sua 3ª mulher D. Isabel Moniz:" "2) (I agree) Bartolomeu Pesrestrelo, 2º capitão-donatário de Porto Santo (1473) casou com Guiomar Teixeira (filha de Trsitão Vaz), tiveram:" "3) (I agree) Bartolomeu Pesrestrelo, 3º Capit.-Donatário (1529) casou com Aldonça Câmara (neta paterna de João Gonçalves Zarco), tiveram:" NOTE: *****(It is here that I have Garcia Perestrelo being the son of Bartolomeu and Aldonca. ( I have Garcia C.c. Maria Taveira, their line then continues with their son Diogo Soares Perestrelo C.c. Joana de Castro e Menezes). "4) (I agree) Diogo Soares Perestrelo, 4º Cap.-don. (1545) casou com Joana de Castro e Menezes,tiveram:" ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/4984 - Release Date: 05/07/12