Hello Paulo, In 1989 we were in Madeira and got a copy of the certificate of Maria Carolina and Manuel. I have it right here in front of me. The copy is very hard to read and I never noticed the problem you mentioned...Where did you see that they were married in 1858? Manuel's parents were Manuel Pereira d'Oliveira and Maria Rosa. Manuel was from Sao Martinho and Maria Rosa from Santo Antonio. I don't have any other information on his family. The only thing my grandfather was always told was that his mothers family was originally from England and so far I have not been able to prove that. The Pereira d'Oliveira and Lopes Serrao are her family. I checked ARM and I can't find anything for Manuel and Maria Rosa. Please let me know what you find out. One other thing I remember is that he said he was not an immediate relative of the Pereira de Oliveira's that make the wine, but were supposed to be somehow connected, they didn't know how. Denise In a message dated 3/16/2005 11:53:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, darwin@spamcop.net writes: Denise, I've seen the marriage record for Manuel Pereira de Oliveira and Maria Carolina, and there is a problem. The groom is said to be born on 1842, but their parents seem to be married at 1858, when he was already 16 years old. I'll check the 1858 record anyway, as I'm interested on that Pereira de Oliveira family, but do you find this to be probable, from what you know about your family history? Paulo

Denise, This record was writen on blue paper, perhaps that's why the copy is hard to read. The original, however, is very clear. It says the groom was 31 years old, as you probably know, and that he was christened on Stº António, thus you'll probably find him on the 1842 christening records of that parish. I also saw that both bride and groom signed the paper, thus they knew how to read and write, a good signal of their social position. Another interesting thing I noticed was that both witnesses, brothers of the bride, I believe, were single and lived on Terra Chã, where I presume her father's house was located. Terra Chã is very close to this place where I live, near the Stº Antonio Cemetary. It now is ridden with social, poor class barrios (you may know the famous football player, Cristiano Ronaldo, that's where he was born), but it was once - until 20 years ago - a land of farms and rural mannors, some of them still exist. The record doesn't say that Manuel Pereira de Oliveira and Maria Rosa married on 1858, but I could only find one record with those names on teh ARM database, and it was on Stº António, at 1858. You'll not see it on the online database with the wife's name writen as "Antónia Rosa do Monte", but there's a note on that record that says that her name is writen on the record's border as "Maria Rosa do Monte". BTW, the record doesn't says that Manuel was from S. Martinho and Maria Rosa from Stº António, if I got it right. It says that the bride's parents were from S. Martinho, and the groom's parents from Stº António, living on Quinta do Leme (but not on the "Quinta" itself, I believe). I've already traced these Pereira de Oliveiras until mid 16th century (where they were called MARTINS), and there's not a drop of English blood as far as I know, but it is still possible - though not probable - that your specific branch has at some point married an English woman. If I were you, the next thing I would do on this line would be to check the christening records for the year 1842 on Stº António. Paulo On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:05:07 EST, <TARA1197@aol.com> wrote: > Hello Paulo, > In 1989 we were in Madeira and got a copy of the certificate of Maria > Carolina and Manuel. I have it right here in front of me. The copy is > very hard > to read and I never noticed the problem you mentioned...Where did you > see that > they were married in 1858? Manuel's parents were Manuel Pereira > d'Oliveira > and Maria Rosa. Manuel was from Sao Martinho and Maria Rosa from Santo > Antonio. I don't have any other information on his family. The only > thing my > grandfather was always told was that his mothers family was originally > from > England and so far I have not been able to prove that. The Pereira > d'Oliveira > and Lopes Serrao are her family. I checked ARM and I can't find > anything for > Manuel and Maria Rosa. Please let me know what you find out. One other > thing I remember is that he said he was not an immediate relative of > the Pereira > de Oliveira's that make the wine, but were supposed to be somehow > connected, > they didn't know how. > Denise > In a message dated 3/16/2005 11:53:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > darwin@spamcop.net writes: > > Denise, > > I've seen the marriage record for Manuel Pereira de Oliveira and Maria > Carolina, and there is a problem. > The groom is said to be born on 1842, but their parents seem to be > married > at 1858, when he was already 16 years old. > I'll check the 1858 record anyway, as I'm interested on that Pereira de > Oliveira family, but do you find this to be probable, from what you know > about your family history? > > Paulo > > > > > > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Okay I have to say something way off subject here...for anyone who doesn't know who Cristiano Ronaldo is, have yourselves a good look here...a more perfect specimen of a Madeiran male, I don't think exists!!! http://www.cristiano-ronaldo.com/ aahhhhh.........if only I were 19 again........(oh yeah and single...!!!) LOL Cece -----Original Message----- From: Paulo Gomes Jardim [mailto:darwin@spamcop.net] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 4:32 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Pereira de Oliveira problem Denise, This record was writen on blue paper, perhaps that's why the copy is hard to read. The original, however, is very clear. It says the groom was 31 years old, as you probably know, and that he was christened on Stº António, thus you'll probably find him on the 1842 christening records of that parish. I also saw that both bride and groom signed the paper, thus they knew how to read and write, a good signal of their social position. Another interesting thing I noticed was that both witnesses, brothers of the bride, I believe, were single and lived on Terra Chã, where I presume her father's house was located. Terra Chã is very close to this place where I live, near the Stº Antonio Cemetary. It now is ridden with social, poor class barrios (you may know the famous football player, Cristiano Ronaldo, that's where he was born), but it was once - until 20 years ago - a land of farms and rural mannors, some of them still exist. The record doesn't say that Manuel Pereira de Oliveira and Maria Rosa married on 1858, but I could only find one record with those names on teh ARM database, and it was on Stº António, at 1858. You'll not see it on the online database with the wife's name writen as "Antónia Rosa do Monte", but there's a note on that record that says that her name is writen on the record's border as "Maria Rosa do Monte". BTW, the record doesn't says that Manuel was from S. Martinho and Maria Rosa from Stº António, if I got it right. It says that the bride's parents were from S. Martinho, and the groom's parents from Stº António, living on Quinta do Leme (but not on the "Quinta" itself, I believe). I've already traced these Pereira de Oliveiras until mid 16th century (where they were called MARTINS), and there's not a drop of English blood as far as I know, but it is still possible - though not probable - that your specific branch has at some point married an English woman. If I were you, the next thing I would do on this line would be to check the christening records for the year 1842 on Stº António. Paulo On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:05:07 EST, <TARA1197@aol.com> wrote: > Hello Paulo, > In 1989 we were in Madeira and got a copy of the certificate of Maria > Carolina and Manuel. I have it right here in front of me. The copy is > very hard > to read and I never noticed the problem you mentioned...Where did you > see that > they were married in 1858? Manuel's parents were Manuel Pereira > d'Oliveira > and Maria Rosa. Manuel was from Sao Martinho and Maria Rosa from Santo > Antonio. I don't have any other information on his family. The only > thing my > grandfather was always told was that his mothers family was originally > from > England and so far I have not been able to prove that. The Pereira > d'Oliveira > and Lopes Serrao are her family. I checked ARM and I can't find > anything for > Manuel and Maria Rosa. Please let me know what you find out. One other > thing I remember is that he said he was not an immediate relative of > the Pereira > de Oliveira's that make the wine, but were supposed to be somehow > connected, > they didn't know how. > Denise > In a message dated 3/16/2005 11:53:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > darwin@spamcop.net writes: > > Denise, > > I've seen the marriage record for Manuel Pereira de Oliveira and Maria > Carolina, and there is a problem. > The groom is said to be born on 1842, but their parents seem to be > married > at 1858, when he was already 16 years old. > I'll check the 1858 record anyway, as I'm interested on that Pereira de > Oliveira family, but do you find this to be probable, from what you know > about your family history? > > Paulo > > > > > > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx