Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----------