Jose', YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! What I wrote *sounds* like discrimitation, racism, and so forth. But I am (not)sorry to say that I am not the right target for that kind of accusation. We were talking about what the portuguese people from Barcelos looked like. Margaret described them as "dark skinned", wearing black clothing, selling pottery in street markets, looking like their ancestors the moors. :-))) This was really funny. Everyone knowing portuguese reality recognized Gypsies. Luis Beal also recognized them. She added they are no long as poor as Margaret described. What I wrote next, about getting rich for not paying taxes (nobody asks for a receipt or invoice in street markets; they don't have to pay rent, poll tax, income tax, social security, insurances, etc., while working in street markets; etc.) , selling fakes (have you ever been in a street market?), and going to jail - even very old grandmothers - for selling drugs, is common knowledge over here. Please note that our media/press always AVOID to mention that arrested people for selling drugs, or people selling fakes in street markets, or people involved in gun shots, etc. are of "raça cigana" (gypsy race) - as they use to call themselves. But, it is impossible to hide this truth when they show them on TV... So... no, what I wrote is not racism or discrimination. But, o.k., I AGREE that what I wrote is a dangerous generalization. And I ask you all to forgive my lack of sensibility (probably because i am not very confortable with english language). So, everything I wrote should have the word "SOME" before the word "Gypsies". Anyway. If you lived here, maybe some of you would write "MANY" or "MOST" instead of "SOME"... Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal PS-1: Portugal is not known for discriminating Gypsies or having slaughtered them in any Holocaust. That is much more common in the richest countries. :-) PS-2: I noticed you called them "Roma people". I hope the word "gypsie" is not insulting. I use it to call them, as I use "portuguese" or "canadian" to call us. PS-3: Is there anything to criticize about Canada (michael moore seems to love it!)?!? ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Luis: Your comments, your views, your MAJOR contributions, your input to all of us here seeking to further identify our backgrounds and ancestral relationships, is not being called into question. I am 67 years old, first-born Portuguese generation in the U.S., and I highly value what this website is able to contribute to furthering our understanding of our roots. I grew up in a community (in the San Francisco/Oakland Bay Area) that was not without pointing out the "differences" between us, whether it is our religion, our skin color, etc. I know what skin color is all about. We matured, we moved on and we learned to adjust and accommodate to our surroundings, and hopefully, as result, we have aged and become wiser in the process. I have personal experiences with the Roma, in Europe, and the former Soviet Union, where I have lived over the years. However, I do not believe this forum is the appropriate place to discuss in detail, insofar-genealogical much less personal experience purposes. Luis, kept on commenting and contributing to our ongoing dialogue. I value your input. Cheers and best wishes, Duane -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 3:03 PM To: Fernandes, Jose; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose', YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! What I wrote *sounds* like discrimitation, racism, and so forth. But I am (not)sorry to say that I am not the right target for that kind of accusation. We were talking about what the portuguese people from Barcelos looked like. Margaret described them as "dark skinned", wearing black clothing, selling pottery in street markets, looking like their ancestors the moors. :-))) This was really funny. Everyone knowing portuguese reality recognized Gypsies. Luis Beal also recognized them. She added they are no long as poor as Margaret described. What I wrote next, about getting rich for not paying taxes (nobody asks for a receipt or invoice in street markets; they don't have to pay rent, poll tax, income tax, social security, insurances, etc., while working in street markets; etc.) , selling fakes (have you ever been in a street market?), and going to jail - even very old grandmothers - for selling drugs, is common knowledge over here. Please note that our media/press always AVOID to mention that arrested people for selling drugs, or people selling fakes in street markets, or people involved in gun shots, etc. are of "raga cigana" (gypsy race) - as they use to call themselves. But, it is impossible to hide this truth when they show them on TV... So... no, what I wrote is not racism or discrimination. But, o.k., I AGREE that what I wrote is a dangerous generalization. And I ask you all to forgive my lack of sensibility (probably because i am not very confortable with english language). So, everything I wrote should have the word "SOME" before the word "Gypsies". Anyway. If you lived here, maybe some of you would write "MANY" or "MOST" instead of "SOME"... Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal PS-1: Portugal is not known for discriminating Gypsies or having slaughtered them in any Holocaust. That is much more common in the richest countries. :-) PS-2: I noticed you called them "Roma people". I hope the word "gypsie" is not insulting. I use it to call them, as I use "portuguese" or "canadian" to call us. PS-3: Is there anything to criticize about Canada (michael moore seems to love it!)?!? ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL ati 24 Mb: a partir de