Yes, Pat. ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of Patricia Corbera Sent: Fri 2/16/2007 5:40 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo José, Are you the same Jose A. Fernandes the administrator of the Madeira DNA Project located at this website address ~ http://www.ourfamilyorigins.com/madeira/dna.htm ? Pat Silva Corbera "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> wrote: Sorry, I did my bit. I didn't just ignore it. May be that will cleanse my soul! I really don't want another list, and definitely not one just about Portugal. My interest is Madeira. But I will make a commitment to post items about history and culture. Others can do other themes. We can all learn form each other. I recommend that we can also post about the experiences of Madeirans in the Diaspora. That too is our history. It won't warm up around here until July! Just kidding. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 15, 2007 6:53 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I was speaking from experience not generalizing. I was born and raised in Portugal, I left when I was 21. In my hometown there were several bands of gypsies who lived in different parts of town. They all wore, looked, and yes, smelled, very much the same. They loved gathering around the fire on the streets. I remember them since the time I was 4 years old. When they became more prosperous and bought houses they still built fires in their front yards and gathered around them. Their smell came from the combination of fire and body odor, and it was still the same after living in houses with plumbing. I have traveled to different parts of Portugal and they looked no different than those from my hometown. I was there two years ago in the street market in Carcavelos and I could easily tell you which people were gypsies. I have never heard them being refered to as Roma though. --"If I repeated to you, as truth, comments that were heard in France or in Canada in the 60's about the Portuguese, would you like it?"-- No, I would not, but if you related to me experiences you had in France or Canada with portuguese people in the 60's I would not see anything wrong with it. It really does not bother me if you considered my words racist for they were not written that way. I'm sorry you did though, for all I did was relate an experience from my life. :) And I did not consider Luis KW's words racist either for what he was describing to us was nothing new to me, except the drug part that happened after I left. Sometimes one just has to know the situation to fully understand the exchange of words. I understood Luis and he understood me, although we live in two different continents we share the same cultural experiences and his words made sense. You are right, we should have another list where we could trade thoughts and ideas about the culture, history, politics, food, etc of Portugal. I can get one going if no one else wants to. If anyone wants to then e-mail me privately so we do not repeat the request to rootsweb. Hope the weather warms up for you. Luis Beal PS- I do not control the list, I monitor it to make sure the language is clean and the content appropriate. Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:39:09 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I am sorry but generalizations are never true. Some Roma are unwashed, but so are some Canadians, Americans, French and so on. Some got rich from drug trade, but so did some Portuguese, Italian, Algerian etc. What truth is there? That some individuals are bad, and do things that we don't like? If I repeated to you, as truth, comments that were heard in France or in Canada in the 60's about the Portuguese, would you like it? Well, I wouldn't. I would say exactly the same thing. Importantly, I refer you to my comments. I said, with due respect, that the impact of your comments were racist. You, I don't know. You can define yourself, but I will not. I agree that one could make any comments and relate them to Madeira. But I believe that we in the Diaspora would benefit more about dialogue and sharing about our history, our customs, and our struggles. But as you make it quite clear in a later posting, we know who controls this list, and I will follow the rules. Perhaps a reminder from time is always a good idea. Just a suggestion, because there are a lot of things affecting our people that I would like to talk about! Finally, language often transmits more than words. As of now whether I like it or not, Madeira is not part of Portugal. It is Portugal. The Madeiran President, Dr. Alberto Joao Jardim, has said that we are not an appendix of anything. We are what we decide to be and others will not decide that for us. After 550 years that may trouble some, but that's the truth or is it that in politics and war the truth is always the first victim? José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 14, 2007 3:43 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo There is a difference between racism and the truth. I am not a racist and my comments, or Luis KW's, were not racist they were merely a description of how gypsies behave and their achievements over the last 30 years. It is a pity that anytime someone mentions something, whether good or bad, about another race or culture it is immediately viewed as racist. There are different obvious behaviors to each culture and race and stating their good and bad parts is NOT racism. Trashing them or putting them down IS racism. Stating facts IS NOT, it is the way life is, the way they want it to be. If you believe what we said speaks volumes about our country you are forgetting that the same situation exists in most of the southern European countries where gypsies have settled, and these countries will have similar stories to tell. We can end this discussion right here and go back to Madeira's genealogy topics (although there are probably gypsies in Madeira so it is not off topic) :) Just one more thing, you will eventually find out that since Madeira is part of Portugal talking about things that happened in the mainland (history) is not off topic. They share the same history and a lot of the same people :) Have a happy valentines day! Luis Beal Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:51:16 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. 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