Dear Margaret, But, as I wrote before, until 1500, the Jews WERE a different people (from the "other" portuguese). It was not only a matter of Religion. They spoke a different language, they had a completely different culture, traditions, they had their own laws, judges and leaders, their clothes were different, they lived apart from the others (in "judiarias"), etc. So, they were easily identifiable. Besides, the (catholic) priests teached the hate over "Jews" - meaning race - the people that "killed Jesus"! Forgetting that Jesus was a Jew himself. Of course, in the 20th century a lot of things changed. Luis Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Pat: The Jews were Portuguese and spoke the language. They had been sheltered and protected by the Portuguese and were not removed from the Castelo de Vide. We were shown two center pews in the church were the Jews sat together during the mass. The safe house was just about 20 yards away in a narrow winding street not far from the church. They were dressed just like the others of the vlla and you couldnot compare them with the New York Jews etc. No braids, long hair or beards or black clothes. The safe house was vacant but we were able to visit and see the escape door, if it was needed. That is the house were the Friday night prayers were said. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Corbera" papagaia2@sbcglobal.net To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Margaret, What nationality were these Jews that you observed in 1979 that still resided in this village with the Portuguese? What language did they speak ? Did you observe the Portuguese attending the synagogue or some other house of faith? Pat Margaret marpg2000@comcast.net wrote: Jose: Castelo de Vide is south of Lisbon. My notation is that it was a Jewish settlement in the 15th century. The synagogue stilll in use (1979) and the Jews still occupy the village along with the Portuguese. Very busy village square for marketing right in front of the church. Many tables set up with merchandise. Moorish influence in the steep streets and narrow paths. Houses typical of moorish architecture like the Alfama. Correct, if we donot heed the errors of the past we are surely going to repeat them in the future. However becsuse we are a combination of so many nationalities we must honor them all and hope it brings peace. Silva, Costa, Pereira a few others are in my line and I am very happy to be part of them. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Margaret, One should always forgive but forget...is forever. We don't want our children to forget. We should have the dignity and the courage to remember because without that we are nothing. It has been said that if we forget history we are going to repeat it. Our memories and our collective memories are the fabric of a family, of a people. That is why they put some much effort and emphasis in making us forget. Where is that village? José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: February 12, 2007 2:36 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose and all: A visit to Villa da Vida on the continent would be very refreshing to everyone. Go to mass at the church, in the center, and after mass go through the stalls of merchandise sold by the villagers. The Villa is something to remember because of its history. The Jews were forced to convert and attend the mass occuping several rows of pews. They were not hostile and today they live peacefully with the Christians. They had a beautiful court with a community fountain in the center and the homes today are still very well kept. You can see the traits of their ancestors from the facial features and as merchants they still carry on their trade. There is a home there where on Friday nights the Jews would secretly pray and on Sunday it was mass. The villagers are of mixed races and some beautiful blue eyes. I will never forget my visit and it has been over 30 years. Let us see peaceful discussions on the subject because there is a lesson to be learned from those villagers. Forgive, forget, and blessings to all Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" To: ; Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! 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