My Dearest Primo Luis K W, I have added my comments/notations within the text of your posting below, indicated by +++. Prima Pat California USA Luis K W <luis_k_w@clix.pt> wrote: Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. +++Hello My Dear Primo Luis K W, +++I was hoping that you would enter into this discussion. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. +++I agree, so once again, why is it such a touchy subject? Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. +++Are you saying that if one practices a different faith, then one does not feel/consider oneself being Portuguese? Do you think that our New-Christian ancestors no longer considered themselves Portuguese? +++What about our Portuguese ancestors from Madeira that followed Dr. Robert Reid Kalley and became Protestants, did they no longer consider themselves Portuguese? Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. +++Either I'm missing your point or you are misunderstanding my question...To learn about one's New-Christian ancestry does not change the fact that these ancestors came from all walks of life, and ethnic backgrounds. Why would one not want to know about ie. the German, the Italian or the Moorish ancestor that became possibly the first generation to practice a different faith than their father? What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) +++This is a very valid point... so let's open up the discussion about these "others." What were their customs, what religion did they practice, etc. It's not enough to simply say "I'm Portuguese," and leave it at that. For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). +++ Luis, is Gramaxo the same as Gramacho? I have Gramacho ancestry in Madeira. Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) +++ Luis, you're missing the entire point of my question. I want to know why it's a touchy subject. I'm not asking this question as an American because I want to be a Jew... and what's this reference to "mostly from the US? But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? +++I think that's a wonderful "find," just learning that one of your ancestors was a "New Christian," now you can try and locate a reference to one of your ancestors being a Muslim, or any other faith. I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) +++What about Abraham Zacuto and his family? This 15th century author of "Almanach Perpetuum" published in Leiria in 1496. The expulsion decree of 1492 brought them to Portugal, even though he belonged to a family of French origin, which had emigrated to Castille in the 14th. century? Was he no longer French? What about Pedro Nunes, a Portuguese mathematician and cosmographer-major, author of "Tratado da Esfera," published in Lisbon in 1537... he was a first generation "New-Christian." He was born in Alcacer do Sal? Still a Portuguese. Gracia Nasi (b. 1510) A first generation crypto-Jew she was born in Portugal and christened Beatriz de Luna. In 1528 she married Francisco Mendes, a New-Christian. Many of our ancestors converted to the Jewish faith, but this fact did not wipe out their ancestral roots. (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. +++Yes we are descended from people of many different "races," and these "people," practiced many different faiths. So why is this subject not discussed? So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? +++Can I turn your question around and ask " what's with the dislike of the Jews? Why not mention the historical figures that helped to shape of world as we know it today... Abraham Zacuto - author - who published in 1496 the tables which provided the principal base for Portuguese navigation at the end of the 15th century and the beginning of the 16th century. Respected as "Mathematician to the King." Guedelha- Master Guedlha - Doctor and astrologer to both King Duarte and King Afonso V. Guedelha Palacano - loyal supporter of Prince Henry. He financed a number of overseas expeditions. Isaac Abravanel - Doctor and philosopher. Made huge loans to King Afonso V. Jaime de Maiorca - famed cartographer and constructor of Maiorcan compasses, came to Portugal at the request of Prince Henry to teach Portuguese cartographers. Samuel Gacon - A member of the Jewish community in Faro. The first Portugeuse incunabula was printed on his press in 1487. Antonio Jose da Silva - known as "the Jew," born in Rio de Janeiro, son of a wealthy colonial family, also one of the victims of the Inquisition. "One of the great Portuguese playwrights of the 18th. century. Menasseh Ben Israel - 1604-1657 Baptized Manuel Dias Soeiro, as a child his family went to Holland to escape the Inquisition. He was given the Jewish name of Menasseh Ben Israel, and later became a rabbi. He introduced Hebraic-Portuguese printing in Amsterdam. And the lists goes on... Portuguese Jews have contributed greatly... Source: "The Jews in Portugal" ICEP Tourism Information Department Av. 5 de Outubro, 101 1000 LIsboa Portugal Why does this all boil down to "why are Americans so fond of Jews?" What would your reaction/comments be if my question was about one being of the Muslim faith, and even better if one had actually linked with Muhammad the Prophet? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? I have read about the Al Andalus, (Islamic Spain) being organized under the civil and religious leadership of the caliph of Damascus. Jews continued to play an important role in commerce, scholarship and the professions during this time. In 756 the Arab-dominated Umayyard dynasty at Damascus was overthrown by the Abbasids, who moved the caliphate to Baghdad. In 756, the exiled Umayyard prince Abd ar Rahman I establish himself as the 1st. emir omiada de Cordoba. He founded the Caliphate of Cordoba. Abd ar Rahman is my 36th Great Grandfather (if one can accurately traced one's ancestry back that far. We're at the mercy that documented history is correct) Pat California, USA I'll let Jose Fernandes add his comments to your posting below... ;-)) And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message