Hi Pat, I've heard the same thing, but as yet haven't found any documentation. I've looked on nesos which has a couple of newspapers on file but nothing from the 1850s. Another story I've heard and has been referenced in 1950s article on the nesos site was that at one time the island -can't recall if it was porto santo or Madeira, was constantly under attack from the morocco and that at one point only about 7 or 8 people actually survived on the island. Anyone know anything more about this. Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of papagaia2 Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 6:07 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family I'm being told that the sea between Madeira and the island of Porto Santo is very rough, making boat crossing very dangerous. I also heard that on or about 1850 a boating accident took the lives of many islanders making that trip. Has anyone seen documentation that would confirm this story? Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family My comment is the Madeira Regional Autonomous Government has built Porto Santo to what it is today. Much needs to be done, but much has been accomplished. Today there is even an 18-hole golf course in the island! Some of the water is from a desalinization plant which was built in the 80's. We should be reminded that the progress of our islands you see today is the result of 30 years of self-government and importantly money from the European Union. By the way it rains in Porto Santo but because of deforestation by the beginning of the 20th century it was almost a desert. It is still hot and arid but not a desert today. It is worth a visit. It is a lovely place. Not so quiet in August, but the best beach in the whole world! ( How about that for bias!) There is a house in the city of Porto Santo which the Madeiran Government claims is the Columbus house. It is behind the church. By the way, some even claim that he may have been a grandson of Zarco! José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: February 2, 2007 2:39 PM To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family So happy to see that Porto Santo is so lovely now after many many years of poverty. The tourists have done it great justice and may the souls that had to tend the dry fields feel compensated. One wonders where the water came from to irregate the fields. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: <luis_k_w@clix.pt> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family > Nowadays Porto Santo is an holiday destination, with wonderful beaches and a lot of quiet. > > http://www.portosanto.nl/indexpt.html > "Porto Santo, onde a vida é lenta" (where the life goes quietly). > :-) > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > In about 1940 I saw a Portuguese film about Porto Santo. Porto Santo was an > extremely dry land and the folks were out in the desert like land making > trenches for planting vegetables. Then would stop in place at noon, recite > the Angelis, praying for rain, > and there was not a cloud in the sky. It was not a vegatative land and life > was quite dificult. > > This makes me wonder how there could be wealth there and homes with > servants. One reads that the governor, Perestrelo actually lived in > Madeira and so did Christopher and his wife. We cannot get any definate > conclusions from the meager > infomatton we get. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scot Austin" scotaustin@comcast.net > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:13 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family > > > John Drummond was the son of Sir John Drummond, the brother of the queen > of Scotland and Elizabeth Sinclair, the daughter of Prince Henry > Sinclair, Prince of the Orkney Islands and Earl of Caithness. Prince > Henry allegedly sailed to Nova Scotia in 1398 with Nicolo and Antonio > Zeno Venetian Navigators. Check the Clan Sinclair website to read the > story. Henry's grandson William Sinclair, John's first cousin, was the > builder of Rosslyn Chapel, featured in the Da Vinci Code. John's son, > João Escorcio Drummond was a contemporary of Columbus and both were > engaged in the sugar trade sailing back and forth between Madeira and > Genoa. Nicolo Zeno, the grandson of Nicolo the navigator supposedly drew > a map from his grandfather's account of his voyage with Prince Henry. > Columbus may have known more about the Western Hemisphere than most > people believe. > > BTW, has anybody heard that Columbus was Portuguese? His wife was Felipa > Moniz, the illegitimate daughter of Bartolomeu Perestrello. Pope > Alexander, VI, Wrote a papal bull on Columbus discovery and spelled his > name Cristovão Colon. Alexander was the Borgia Pope and a Spaniard, so > why write in Portuguese instead of instead of Italian or Spanish? > > Scot > > Fernandes, Jose wrote: > Leandro, > Do a Google research on Gabriel Drumond and it comes up. I have been > trying the website for the Madeira parliament www.alrm.pt but I am getting > nowhere. > Now that you mention it (and Margaret too) I have read about this family > being from Scotland. I also note that Escorcio is a family name on its own > now. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com > Sent: January 30, 2007 3:50 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family > > Actyually Drumond comes from Scotland...John Dummond came around 1450 from > Scotland, some saying that he was expeled by his family (nobody really > knows > how and why he went to Madeira....fact is that everybody in Madeira with > its > surname can trace back to him...but i still dont have the links between > Vital > Escorcio Drumond, His grandfather Capitain Antonio Figueiro/Ana Gouveia > and > this John Drumond. > > It would be interesting to get in touch with any present Drumond from Sao > Vicente (maybe they have the answer....)./ Anyone there that have any idea > how i > can do that?? > > Thank you > > Leandro > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de ? 29,90/mês > A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! > > Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Janette, I hadn't heard the story about what you mentioned. I recall reading about the pirate attacks, and the bonfire warning system that Porto Santo adapted to warn Machico of approaching pirate ships. Life was not easy for these settlers. Janette Chun <janettechun@shaw.ca> wrote: Hi Pat, I've heard the same thing, but as yet haven't found any documentation. I've looked on nesos which has a couple of newspapers on file but nothing from the 1850s. Another story I've heard and has been referenced in 1950s article on the nesos site was that at one time the island -can't recall if it was porto santo or Madeira, was constantly under attack from the morocco and that at one point only about 7 or 8 people actually survived on the island. Anyone know anything more about this. Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of papagaia2 Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 6:07 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family I'm being told that the sea between Madeira and the island of Porto Santo is very rough, making boat crossing very dangerous. I also heard that on or about 1850 a boating accident took the lives of many islanders making that trip. Has anyone seen documentation that would confirm this story? Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family My comment is the Madeira Regional Autonomous Government has built Porto Santo to what it is today. Much needs to be done, but much has been accomplished. Today there is even an 18-hole golf course in the island! Some of the water is from a desalinization plant which was built in the 80's. We should be reminded that the progress of our islands you see today is the result of 30 years of self-government and importantly money from the European Union. By the way it rains in Porto Santo but because of deforestation by the beginning of the 20th century it was almost a desert. It is still hot and arid but not a desert today. It is worth a visit. It is a lovely place. Not so quiet in August, but the best beach in the whole world! ( How about that for bias!) There is a house in the city of Porto Santo which the Madeiran Government claims is the Columbus house. It is behind the church. By the way, some even claim that he may have been a grandson of Zarco! José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: February 2, 2007 2:39 PM To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family So happy to see that Porto Santo is so lovely now after many many years of poverty. The tourists have done it great justice and may the souls that had to tend the dry fields feel compensated. One wonders where the water came from to irregate the fields. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family > Nowadays Porto Santo is an holiday destination, with wonderful beaches and a lot of quiet. > > http://www.portosanto.nl/indexpt.html > "Porto Santo, onde a vida é lenta" (where the life goes quietly). > :-) > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > In about 1940 I saw a Portuguese film about Porto Santo. Porto Santo was an > extremely dry land and the folks were out in the desert like land making > trenches for planting vegetables. Then would stop in place at noon, recite > the Angelis, praying for rain, > and there was not a cloud in the sky. It was not a vegatative land and life > was quite dificult. > > This makes me wonder how there could be wealth there and homes with > servants. One reads that the governor, Perestrelo actually lived in > Madeira and so did Christopher and his wife. We cannot get any definate > conclusions from the meager > infomatton we get. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scot Austin" scotaustin@comcast.net > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:13 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family > > > John Drummond was the son of Sir John Drummond, the brother of the queen > of Scotland and Elizabeth Sinclair, the daughter of Prince Henry > Sinclair, Prince of the Orkney Islands and Earl of Caithness. Prince > Henry allegedly sailed to Nova Scotia in 1398 with Nicolo and Antonio > Zeno Venetian Navigators. Check the Clan Sinclair website to read the > story. Henry's grandson William Sinclair, John's first cousin, was the > builder of Rosslyn Chapel, featured in the Da Vinci Code. John's son, > João Escorcio Drummond was a contemporary of Columbus and both were > engaged in the sugar trade sailing back and forth between Madeira and > Genoa. Nicolo Zeno, the grandson of Nicolo the navigator supposedly drew > a map from his grandfather's account of his voyage with Prince Henry. > Columbus may have known more about the Western Hemisphere than most > people believe. > > BTW, has anybody heard that Columbus was Portuguese? His wife was Felipa > Moniz, the illegitimate daughter of Bartolomeu Perestrello. Pope > Alexander, VI, Wrote a papal bull on Columbus discovery and spelled his > name Cristovão Colon. Alexander was the Borgia Pope and a Spaniard, so > why write in Portuguese instead of instead of Italian or Spanish? > > Scot > > Fernandes, Jose wrote: > Leandro, > Do a Google research on Gabriel Drumond and it comes up. I have been > trying the website for the Madeira parliament www.alrm.pt but I am getting > nowhere. > Now that you mention it (and Margaret too) I have read about this family > being from Scotland. I also note that Escorcio is a family name on its own > now. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com > Sent: January 30, 2007 3:50 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family > > Actyually Drumond comes from Scotland...John Dummond came around 1450 from > Scotland, some saying that he was expeled by his family (nobody really > knows > how and why he went to Madeira....fact is that everybody in Madeira with > its > surname can trace back to him...but i still dont have the links between > Vital > Escorcio Drumond, His grandfather Capitain Antonio Figueiro/Ana Gouveia > and > this John Drumond. > > It would be interesting to get in touch with any present Drumond from Sao > Vicente (maybe they have the answer....)./ Anyone there that have any idea > how i > can do that?? > > Thank you > > Leandro > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de ? 29,90/mês > A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! > > Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
No it definitely doesn't sound easy, but at the same time life on the other hand seemed so sophisticated when you look at the newspapers from the 1800s. -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Corbera Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 3:46 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family Hi Janette, I hadn't heard the story about what you mentioned. I recall reading about the pirate attacks, and the bonfire warning system that Porto Santo adapted to warn Machico of approaching pirate ships. Life was not easy for these settlers. Janette Chun <janettechun@shaw.ca> wrote: Hi Pat, I've heard the same thing, but as yet haven't found any documentation. I've looked on nesos which has a couple of newspapers on file but nothing from the 1850s. Another story I've heard and has been referenced in 1950s article on the nesos site was that at one time the island -can't recall if it was porto santo or Madeira, was constantly under attack from the morocco and that at one point only about 7 or 8 people actually survived on the island. Anyone know anything more about this. Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of papagaia2 Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 6:07 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family I'm being told that the sea between Madeira and the island of Porto Santo is very rough, making boat crossing very dangerous. I also heard that on or about 1850 a boating accident took the lives of many islanders making that trip. Has anyone seen documentation that would confirm this story? Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family My comment is the Madeira Regional Autonomous Government has built Porto Santo to what it is today. Much needs to be done, but much has been accomplished. Today there is even an 18-hole golf course in the island! Some of the water is from a desalinization plant which was built in the 80's. We should be reminded that the progress of our islands you see today is the result of 30 years of self-government and importantly money from the European Union. By the way it rains in Porto Santo but because of deforestation by the beginning of the 20th century it was almost a desert. It is still hot and arid but not a desert today. It is worth a visit. It is a lovely place. Not so quiet in August, but the best beach in the whole world! ( How about that for bias!) There is a house in the city of Porto Santo which the Madeiran Government claims is the Columbus house. It is behind the church. By the way, some even claim that he may have been a grandson of Zarco! José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: February 2, 2007 2:39 PM To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family So happy to see that Porto Santo is so lovely now after many many years of poverty. The tourists have done it great justice and may the souls that had to tend the dry fields feel compensated. One wonders where the water came from to irregate the fields. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family > Nowadays Porto Santo is an holiday destination, with wonderful beaches and a lot of quiet. > > http://www.portosanto.nl/indexpt.html > "Porto Santo, onde a vida é lenta" (where the life goes quietly). > :-) > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > In about 1940 I saw a Portuguese film about Porto Santo. Porto Santo was an > extremely dry land and the folks were out in the desert like land making > trenches for planting vegetables. Then would stop in place at noon, recite > the Angelis, praying for rain, > and there was not a cloud in the sky. It was not a vegatative land and life > was quite dificult. > > This makes me wonder how there could be wealth there and homes with > servants. One reads that the governor, Perestrelo actually lived in > Madeira and so did Christopher and his wife. We cannot get any definate > conclusions from the meager > infomatton we get. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scot Austin" scotaustin@comcast.net > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:13 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family > > > John Drummond was the son of Sir John Drummond, the brother of the queen > of Scotland and Elizabeth Sinclair, the daughter of Prince Henry > Sinclair, Prince of the Orkney Islands and Earl of Caithness. Prince > Henry allegedly sailed to Nova Scotia in 1398 with Nicolo and Antonio > Zeno Venetian Navigators. Check the Clan Sinclair website to read the > story. Henry's grandson William Sinclair, John's first cousin, was the > builder of Rosslyn Chapel, featured in the Da Vinci Code. John's son, > João Escorcio Drummond was a contemporary of Columbus and both were > engaged in the sugar trade sailing back and forth between Madeira and > Genoa. Nicolo Zeno, the grandson of Nicolo the navigator supposedly drew > a map from his grandfather's account of his voyage with Prince Henry. > Columbus may have known more about the Western Hemisphere than most > people believe. > > BTW, has anybody heard that Columbus was Portuguese? His wife was Felipa > Moniz, the illegitimate daughter of Bartolomeu Perestrello. Pope > Alexander, VI, Wrote a papal bull on Columbus discovery and spelled his > name Cristovão Colon. Alexander was the Borgia Pope and a Spaniard, so > why write in Portuguese instead of instead of Italian or Spanish? > > Scot > > Fernandes, Jose wrote: > Leandro, > Do a Google research on Gabriel Drumond and it comes up. I have been > trying the website for the Madeira parliament www.alrm.pt but I am getting > nowhere. > Now that you mention it (and Margaret too) I have read about this family > being from Scotland. I also note that Escorcio is a family name on its own > now. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com > Sent: January 30, 2007 3:50 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family > > Actyually Drumond comes from Scotland...John Dummond came around 1450 from > Scotland, some saying that he was expeled by his family (nobody really > knows > how and why he went to Madeira....fact is that everybody in Madeira with > its > surname can trace back to him...but i still dont have the links between > Vital > Escorcio Drumond, His grandfather Capitain Antonio Figueiro/Ana Gouveia > and > this John Drumond. > > It would be interesting to get in touch with any present Drumond from Sao > Vicente (maybe they have the answer....)./ Anyone there that have any idea > how i > can do that?? > > Thank you > > Leandro > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de ? 29,90/mês > A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! > > Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message