Making the "de" captial and part of the name is true for my name with one additional complication. The "de" before Agrella made it flow so good, that Americans could not hear the "A". The name ended up being written DeGrella. Another note of interest is that my grandfather was married twice. His desendents by the first marriage consistently write the name with a space, De Grella, and the rest of us do not put a space in the name. David DeGrella Tennessee USA On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:22:49 -0800 (PST) Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> writes: > I have always heard that the addition of "de" and "da" to a name was > not just to show roots but also to make the name flow better when > said out loud. For example my 2nd great grandfather's name was > Manuel Rodrigues da Ressurreicao, now try saying Manuel Rodrigues > Ressurreicao and you'll notice that it just does not flow as easily. > > Another thing is I do not ever remember the use of a "da" or "de" > capitalized except here in the states where somehow it just became > attached as part of the family name, ex. Da Silva, De Nobrega... > > Luis Beal > > > > Pat, > > In response to your first paragraph for the list I would rather not > comment. Luis living in Portugal might know what I am referring to. > If you send me an e-mail directly to me at > jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca I would be most pleased to give you a > background. > > Use of "de" is as per Luis' comments and it means "from". Its use or > lack of use got carried away in Madeira. That was my comment. Use of > "da" may mean "of" because it refers to belonging to (feminine) and > "do" is the masculine form. But that is a good question. Why use > "da"? I don't know. > > As far as the priest is concerned it is possible what you say. In > fact I suggest that is a possibility and that is misuse got out of > hand in Madeira, specifically in the 19th century. Others may have a > different reading. On the other hand, the standardization of the > language is very recent. Even today there is still debate on the > orthographical agreement with Brazil which it seems is not yet been > implemented. In my opinion the language of today and its spelling > owe a lot to contemporary writers such as Eça de Queiroz or Pessoa. > > Please also remember that I believe that most of the original noble > families (or who became noble) left the islands a long time ago. > Many spent their time in the Court in Lisbon and never returned. Many > 2nd sons left to the Azores very early or to Brazil. > > Finally, I believe all our families survived and worked hard. That > is what I am proud of. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Patricia > Corbera > Sent: January 23, 2007 4:20 PM > To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > Jose, > I'm confused by your statement - "Finally, there are rules but in > Madeira we make our own rules. In fact given the current > circumstances more so today than ever in our history! " > Please help me understand what you meant by this statement, > especially the part about the "current circumstances." > Using your example of "Da Silva," and "just Silva," I thought the > only use of Da was to indicate "of." All the documents that I have > for my "da Silva Se' " ancestors from Madeira the Priest used the > "da," is it correct to say/think that these ancestors were people of > "means/nobles," in the eyes of the Priest and of the villagers where > they resided? > > I actually think Priests followed their "own," way of writing, as > evident with the various spelling variations that is seen in early > documents. > > Pat Silva Corbera > California USA > > > > luis_k_w@clix.pt wrote: > Jose' > I understand your point, and I believe you're absolutely right. > > So... are you saying that the priests who wrote the Baptism Records > were the cause of the social discrimination still existing in > Madeira? > > Just kidding! Just kidding!! :-)) > > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > --------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > Luis, > I agree that it does not show nobility. However, it became in > Madeira an attempt to show nobility. Some people insisted in having > the "de" according to the rules that you have indicated. Now try to > convince a priest in a little village to add a "de", and you are a > poor man or a "vilão" and you will see the difference. Why do you > think there are Da Silva and just Silva? Economy of words? Would it > show class? Would it attempt to show your place in society? In an > island where most were illiterate (before 1960) why did the priest > follow your rule for some and not for others? > Finally, there are rules but in Madeira we make our own rules. In > fact given the current circumstances more so today than ever in our > history! > Nevertheless, when I have an opportunity I will contact Dr. Albert > Vieira about this. > > Cheers > > José > > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > luis_k_w@clix.pt > Sent: January 23, 2007 1:09 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > Sorry Jose', > A "de" before a toponimic(spl?) name doesn't show nobility at all. > > That's (probably) in French and Belgium, etc. where they pay a lot > of atention and caution to the use of "de avec un petit d". > > "De" means FROM. And that's why all the ALBUQUERQUE, ALMEIDA, > ATAIDE, BASTOS, SILVA, NOBREGA, etc. (which are names of towns and > places) should use a DE (or DA) before the name. > > My family, from my mother's side, is «DE MELO E LIMA» (from Melo and > from Lima) and «DE CASTRO E SOUSA». That's absolutely correct. And > it doesn't mean they were all noble. > > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > Margaret, > > We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got > carried away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was > added to show nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come > from hardworking families that worked the land. Wed all come from > good families. I am proud of their achievements and their hard work. > Our ancestors built Madeira from nothing. Even to work the land took > creativity, courage and hard work. > > I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço > and I encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget > about Caniço. > > For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they > already had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists > came to work in their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" > system they owned most of the land rights in Caniço until late in > the 20th century. > > Have a nice day. > José Fernnades > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret > Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > Jose: > My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however > in > Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the > deNobrega. The > original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation > still > live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. > Many of > the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and > Brazil. > > There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. > Have > been for many years and several are medical doctors. > In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever > endeaver they > choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas > and > Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is > with the > Portugese gorvernment. > I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part > of the > world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention > Caniço I am > in! > > The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th > century. We > have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and > Nóbrega. In > fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into > the > Nóbrega family. > > In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there > barely > 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were > mostly > interconnected. > > Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of > Caniço > until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became > its own > parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in > Caniço, who > gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to > have much > intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. > > Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she > writes in > the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha > who > were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish > battalion which > was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island > in and > around 1807 and 1814. > > Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. > > Have a nice day. > > José > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Denise1270@aol.com > Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Hi Margaret, > > I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker > items. One > of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. > > My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe > he was > from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. > I > know > he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My > grandmothers > family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married > to > Adelaide > Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and > her > parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She > went > to live > in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da > Camara > d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand > there is > a > street or something named after them. > > My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we > don't > know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. > > Denise > > In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > marpg2000@comcast.net writes: > > Denise: > > The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. > Her > family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one > cousin now > owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married to > an > Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of > those > famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been > very > interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way > through > to > the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They > also > are related to the Miranda family. > > The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route > through > Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those > mentioned > here have sadly passed away. > > Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a > bust > of > a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from > Camacha > and at one time quite prominent. > > Best wishes > Margaret