Jose' I understand your point, and I believe you're absolutely right. So... are you saying that the priests who wrote the Baptism Records were the cause of the social discrimination still existing in Madeira? Just kidding! Just kidding!! :-)) Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal --------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Luis, I agree that it does not show nobility. However, it became in Madeira an attempt to show nobility. Some people insisted in having the "de" according to the rules that you have indicated. Now try to convince a priest in a little village to add a "de", and you are a poor man or a "vilão" and you will see the difference. Why do you think there are Da Silva and just Silva? Economy of words? Would it show class? Would it attempt to show your place in society? In an island where most were illiterate (before 1960) why did the priest follow your rule for some and not for others? Finally, there are rules but in Madeira we make our own rules. In fact given the current circumstances more so today than ever in our history! Nevertheless, when I have an opportunity I will contact Dr. Albert Vieira about this. Cheers José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: January 23, 2007 1:09 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Sorry Jose', A "de" before a toponimic(spl?) name doesn't show nobility at all. That's (probably) in French and Belgium, etc. where they pay a lot of atention and caution to the use of "de avec un petit d". "De" means FROM. And that's why all the ALBUQUERQUE, ALMEIDA, ATAIDE, BASTOS, SILVA, NOBREGA, etc. (which are names of towns and places) should use a DE (or DA) before the name. My family, from my mother's side, is «DE MELO E LIMA» (from Melo and from Lima) and «DE CASTRO E SOUSA». That's absolutely correct. And it doesn't mean they were all noble. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Margaret, We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got carried away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was added to show nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come from hardworking families that worked the land. Wed all come from good families. I am proud of their achievements and their hard work. Our ancestors built Madeira from nothing. Even to work the land took creativity, courage and hard work. I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço and I encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget about Caniço. For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they already had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists came to work in their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" system they owned most of the land rights in Caniço until late in the 20th century. Have a nice day. José Fernnades -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Jose: My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however in Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the deNobrega. The original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation still live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. Many of the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and Brazil. There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. Have been for many years and several are medical doctors. In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever endeaver they choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas and Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is with the Portugese gorvernment. I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part of the world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention Caniço I am in! The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th century. We have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and Nóbrega. In fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into the Nóbrega family. In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there barely 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were mostly interconnected. Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of Caniço until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became its own parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in Caniço, who gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to have much intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she writes in the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha who were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish battalion which was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island in and around 1807 and 1814. Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. Have a nice day. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Denise1270@aol.com Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Hi Margaret, I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker items. One of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe he was from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. I know he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My grandmothers family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married to Adelaide Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and her parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She went to live in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da Camara d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand there is a street or something named after them. My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we don't know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. Denise In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, marpg2000@comcast.net writes: Denise: The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. Her family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one cousin now owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married to an Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of those famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been very interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way through to the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They also are related to the Miranda family. The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route through Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those mentioned here have sadly passed away. Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a bust of a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from Camacha and at one time quite prominent. Best wishes Margaret ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Jose, I'm confused by your statement - "Finally, there are rules but in Madeira we make our own rules. In fact given the current circumstances more so today than ever in our history! " Please help me understand what you meant by this statement, especially the part about the "current circumstances." Using your example of "Da Silva," and "just Silva," I thought the only use of Da was to indicate "of." All the documents that I have for my "da Silva Se' " ancestors from Madeira the Priest used the "da," is it correct to say/think that these ancestors were people of "means/nobles," in the eyes of the Priest and of the villagers where they resided? I actually think Priests followed their "own," way of writing, as evident with the various spelling variations that is seen in early documents. Pat Silva Corbera California USA luis_k_w@clix.pt wrote: Jose' I understand your point, and I believe you're absolutely right. So... are you saying that the priests who wrote the Baptism Records were the cause of the social discrimination still existing in Madeira? Just kidding! Just kidding!! :-)) Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal --------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Luis, I agree that it does not show nobility. However, it became in Madeira an attempt to show nobility. Some people insisted in having the "de" according to the rules that you have indicated. Now try to convince a priest in a little village to add a "de", and you are a poor man or a "vilão" and you will see the difference. Why do you think there are Da Silva and just Silva? Economy of words? Would it show class? Would it attempt to show your place in society? In an island where most were illiterate (before 1960) why did the priest follow your rule for some and not for others? Finally, there are rules but in Madeira we make our own rules. In fact given the current circumstances more so today than ever in our history! Nevertheless, when I have an opportunity I will contact Dr. Albert Vieira about this. Cheers José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: January 23, 2007 1:09 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Sorry Jose', A "de" before a toponimic(spl?) name doesn't show nobility at all. That's (probably) in French and Belgium, etc. where they pay a lot of atention and caution to the use of "de avec un petit d". "De" means FROM. And that's why all the ALBUQUERQUE, ALMEIDA, ATAIDE, BASTOS, SILVA, NOBREGA, etc. (which are names of towns and places) should use a DE (or DA) before the name. My family, from my mother's side, is «DE MELO E LIMA» (from Melo and from Lima) and «DE CASTRO E SOUSA». That's absolutely correct. And it doesn't mean they were all noble. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Margaret, We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got carried away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was added to show nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come from hardworking families that worked the land. Wed all come from good families. I am proud of their achievements and their hard work. Our ancestors built Madeira from nothing. Even to work the land took creativity, courage and hard work. I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço and I encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget about Caniço. For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they already had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists came to work in their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" system they owned most of the land rights in Caniço until late in the 20th century. Have a nice day. José Fernnades -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Jose: My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however in Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the deNobrega. The original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation still live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. Many of the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and Brazil. There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. Have been for many years and several are medical doctors. In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever endeaver they choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas and Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is with the Portugese gorvernment. I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part of the world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention Caniço I am in! The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th century. We have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and Nóbrega. In fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into the Nóbrega family. In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there barely 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were mostly interconnected. Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of Caniço until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became its own parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in Caniço, who gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to have much intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she writes in the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha who were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish battalion which was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island in and around 1807 and 1814. Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. Have a nice day. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Denise1270@aol.com Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Hi Margaret, I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker items. One of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe he was from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. I know he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My grandmothers family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married to Adelaide Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and her parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She went to live in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da Camara d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand there is a street or something named after them. My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we don't know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. Denise In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, marpg2000@comcast.net writes: Denise: The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. Her family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one cousin now owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married to an Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of those famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been very interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way through to the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They also are related to the Miranda family. The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route through Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those mentioned here have sadly passed away. Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a bust of a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from Camacha and at one time quite prominent. Best wishes Margaret ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message