I hope you don't mind that I am including the list in my e-mail. Thanks for your comments. Let's keep this Minho versus Algarve discussion going. I am not sure there is evidence either way. May be others can jump in. I have seen evidence of merchants from Algarve in Funchal. Joao de Tavira was one of them. Funchal has a street named after him. Henry the navigator lived there for his last 40 years. So it would make sense that the ships came from there. Initially! But what about the colonization? Algarve was Christian for about 100 and some odd years. The ruling classes were northern. The people were in transition. The upper classes of the Moorish kingdoms had left. Silves, one their capitals and seaport, was about to be landlocked. Who were Henry's friends? Who did he trust? We know that he was the head of the Order of Christ and the owner of Madeira. I am thinking Zarco and Tristao Vaz Teixeira brought along their friends. Now Madeira needs people to work the land. Would they be from Algarve? I don't know. The land is soon given to sugar plantation. That was foreign to the north, yet agriculture was the central occupation of the north. They knew how to work the land. The sugar trade to Europe was mostly trough Viana do Castelo. This was to avoid the Mediterranean controlled partially by Muslims. Ceuta was sometimes Christian, but very hard to hold. Tangiers the same and the same for the whole Moroccan coast. Algarve was often attacked by Moorish pirates. So safe trade to France and the Low countries was through the northern part and around Galicia. If this is true, then Madeira's trade link to Portugal is by way of the north. Also, Madeira looks pretty much like Minho, specially the north part of the island. Our musical traditions, I am told, have to do with Minho. Our traditional dresses have to do with Minho. There is so much culturally linked to the north. So, if not initially, then when we need people to work the land, I suggest we went north. Anyway, in my limited research, the 16th century Caniço is drawing males from the north. I totally agree with your conclusion that in the end that at least the ruling families in the south were from the north. Does any of this make sense? José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: grandcross [mailto:grandcross@swbell.net] Sent: March 5, 2007 4:12 PM To: Katherine Hope Borges; cherimello@gmail.com; kriolu@hotmail.com; Fernandes, Jose Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Madeira and Galicia My thanks to Jose for sending along this partial translation. Here are two quick observations: I walked 217 miles along the road to Santiago in 2000 and have driven along that route a number of times. The people I met in Galicia were indistinguishable from Portuguese who live within the upper half of present day Portugal. In other words, the present inhabitants of northwestern Iberia from central Portugal in the south to all of Galicia in the north appear to be culturally pretty much the same. That is not the case moving east from the Spanish - Portuguese border even if you cross it as far north as the region of Guarda and Viseu. My strong suspicion, in the absence of greater direct evidence, is that the Galicians and northern Portuguese are much the same genetically as well. What limited testing that has occurred seems to support that supposition, although the so-called "Moorish" influence is slightly greater in Galicia. I'm not so sure most of the original inhabitants of Madeira came from the north. It's possible but C.R. Boxer, for one, says "The earliest settlers were probably drawn mainly from the Algarve, as Prince Henry's caravels sailed chiefly from the ports of that province, but they were soon reinforced by emigrants from elsewhere in Portugal <specific location unstated> and from as far afield as Flanders...." (Boxer, The Portuguese Seabourne Empire 1415-1825, p.27). Of course, there was a general flow of humanity from north to south in the country from the thirteenth century forward so many in the south were the descendants of northern families. Thanks again, Jose. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katherine Hope Borges" <kvjjmmborges@msn.com> To: <cherimello@gmail.com>; <grandcross@swbell.net>; <kriolu@hotmail.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:44 AM Subject: FW: [PT-MADEIRA] Madeira and Galicia >I recently had the pleasure to start reading a document containing papers >which > were presented at a conference which took place in Santiago de Compostela > in > 2002. The conference entitled "Xornadas xenética e historia no Noroeste > Peninsular" was dedicated to Genetics and History in the north part of the > Iberian Peninsula. > > > > The papers are written in Galician, Castilian and Portuguese. The whole > document > was kindly sent to me by Ricardo Costa de Oliveira. > > > > For those who are interested in the subject I am enclosing a summary of > comments > that caught my attention. It is purely a subjective selection. This part > only > includes half of the document. I will share with you the other part later. > > > > I welcome any comments. Please note that these are also my translations. > > > > Madeira and Galicia: a background > > > > Obviously you want to know what this conference has to do with Madeira. > Glad you > asked. > > > > We can use the term Galicia with its capital in Braga to identify most > territories north of the Mondego River and in the west and northern part > of > Iberia. That is until the reorganization of the Roman provinces in Iberia. > > > > However, it is to the north of the Douro River that the region reaches > into the > 12th and 13th centuries. This is the beginning of Portugal. The old > province of > Minho is part of this territory. > > > > Madeira is colonized in and around 1430's, barely 2 and a half centuries > hence. > If we accept that many of the colonists came from the Northern part of > Portugal, > then Madeira Is inevitably intertwined with Galicia. This means that in my > opinion, that many of the genetic, linguistic and historical inevitably, > directly or indirectly link to Madeira. > > > > In my limited research of parish records, I have found evidence that while > in > Funchal with its large mercantile population arrivals came from all over; > many > arrivals in the 15th or 16th centuries were from the north part. In > Caniço, > Santa Cruz specifically we see young men arriving from the present day > districts > of Viana, Braga and Viseu. Viseu today is not considered north, but it was > part > of pre-Portugal Galicia. > > > > So, for those of you, who are thinking beyond Madeira for your ancestral > lineages and genetic testing, Galicia and present day Minho may be your > destination. Please comment on this. > > > > The papers: > > > >>From the preface by Gerado Pereira,Anxo Carracedo > > > > "Geneticists don't study genetics phenomena of a people that was, but of a > people that is" > > > > "They don't study how genetically the Galician or Portuguese people are > (what > hypothetically they were) but what they became" > > > > "Is a people a starting or an arrival point?" > > > >>From Antonio Amorim > > > > "at the beginning of then 19th century there were more than 80,000 Galegos > in > Portugal" > > > > "there are no significant differences in mtDNa between Galicia and > northern > Portugal"p.22 > > > > mtDna paradox-those of North African lineage are more commonly found in > Galicia > and Northern Portugal p.24 > > > > male lines (Y) is the opposite- more in the south and less in Galicia- > p.27 > > > > from Sandra Beleza > > "from time immemorial there was always a clear division between cultures > that > existed in the North and those that established south of Rio Douro > (Ribeiro, > 1966) p.32 > > > > -modern thinking indicates that the Moorish invasion did not displace many > of > the people in the northern part (Pallares,2003) p.32 > > > > 0.26% variance between northern Portugal and Galicia- indicates a common > origin > > > > Note that when referring to the North there is a need to differentiate the > interior districts of Vila Real and Bragança from Braga and Viana do > Castelo- > the differences between these districts are significant- p36-37 > > > > The great conclusion of the study is that in Northwest the geographic > barriers > are more important that political lines in the y Chromosome data. > > > > Maria Brión and Paula Sanchez-Diz note that Galician males moved a lot. It > seems > that according to rural, legal and cultural tradition in Galicia, the > older > daughter inherited the family house and lands- p. 50 (I am wondering if > that is > the case in Minho?) > > > > > > > > > > > > José Fernandes > > Administrator > > Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services > > York Region District School Board > > Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 > > Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 > > jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/711 - Release Date: 3/5/2007 > 9:41 AM > >