Paulo: Pardon my asking but I'm in the USA and don't understand what you mean when you say and use the word, "patronimics". Can you explain? Thanks, Ronnie French (decendent of Jose do Espirito Santo and Virginia Augusta de Freitas Lopes). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin@spamcop.net> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Isabel de Gois On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:01:20 +0100, <Gregobhte1@aol.com> wrote: [..] > Hi Paulo.... > You are absolutely right about the names. Is Isabel and she has a > daughter > Helena. YES!! the confusion is between sources coming from Peter Clode > and the > author of the book Familias da Gaula. I also have the book "Familias de Gaula", the last 2005 corrected edition. I must say it is a monumental effort and a most invaluable book to have for anyone interested in Madeira Genealogies. It's available for sell in Junta de Freguesia de Gaula, people aboard interested to acquire it may probably write to them and ask for an exemplar. I must also say that from my experience this book is ridden with errors, either on dates of marriage, on ascendancy of married couples, and on many assumptions made there, such as congregating all the Afonsos, Gonçalves, Rodrigues, Jorges, etc. all in one family, when they are patronimics, and thus often unrelated between themselves. It's quite good for using as a guide, but you must always confirm the data against original records. The quality of the data improves as we reach modern times, and most living people from Gaula can easily find their way up from there. It's unfortunate, however, that a name index is not included, and the method of classification (surnames, as opposed to lineages) is not the ideal, in my opinion. The author, José Lourenço de Gouveia e Freitas, has the immense credit of dedicating the same effort to popular lineages as to more aristochratic ones, and took great care to include many expatriate families now living abroad in USA, Venezuela, South Africa, Jersey, etc.. I highly recommend as well "Gaula: a Terra e a Gente", which should act as a complement for the former one, or vice-versa. I find this book to be more accurate historically than the genealogical study. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 03:04:41 +0100, Ronnie French <rmfrench@charter.net> wrote: > Paulo: > Pardon my asking but I'm in the USA and don't understand what you mean > when > you say and use the word, "patronimics". Can you explain? As it seems, before Medieval times, people often used just one name, the given name. Then, as the need to distinguish between different individuals arose, people were identified by being son of this, or son of that. For the effect a latin declination of the father's name was used, which is the patronymic. So, Petrus son of Pelayo became Petrus Pelayes, Munio son of Gundisalvo became Munio Gundisalves. As the Latin became increasingly more and more popular, it got corrupted, thus Pelayo turned into Paio, Gundisalvo into Gonçalo, etc.. The patronymics evolved as well, so, for instance: Gundisalves -> Gonçalves Roderiques -> Rodrigues Diegues -> Dias Ferdinandes -> Fernandes and so on. Some like Gomes, Nunes, Ximenes and Munoz remained almost the same. For better clarification, I'll compile a small table of some patronymics you may easily find, and the name they are derived from. Álvaro -> Álvares/Alves Afonso -> Afonso André -> André António -> Antunes Berenguer-> Berenguer Bernardo-> Bernardes Brás -> Brás Diogo -> Dias Domingo -> Domingues Fernando/Fernão -> Fernandes Francisco-> Francisco Garcia -> Garcês/Garcia Gil -> Gil Gomes -> Gomes Gonçalo -> Gonçalves Henrique -> Henriques João -> Anes/Eanes Jorge -> Jorge Lucas -> Lucas Luís -> Luís Lopo -> Lopes Lourenço-> Lourenço Manuel -> Manuel Marcos -> Marques Martim -> Martins Miguel -> Miguel Munio -> Moniz/Munhoz Nuno -> Nunes Paulo -> Paulos/Paulus/Pallos Pedro -> Pires Rodrigo/ Rui -> Rodrigues/Ruiz/Roiz Sancho -> Sanches Simão -> Simões Soeiro -> Soares Telo -> Teles/Telo Vasco -> Vaz/Vasques Ximeno/Jimeno -> Ximenes/Jimenes Zargo -> Zargo All the names listed above are not true surnames, but rather patronymics, as they are derived from one certain ancestor given name. Sometimes you may even find who he was. I have found many, as this was in use even in the 17th century, and in some extraordinary cases, the custom persisted until recently, especially in the countryside. Even a quick look on the Madeira marriages database will tell that the great majority of the surnames listed there are patronymics. In this case you can hardly use them to trace back a family, as 2 totally unrelated Gonçalos may give way to 2 lineages of Gonçalves. In some cases when the given name is quite uncommon, or has totaly fallen out from use, such as Moniz and Berenguer, you may use them to trace back your family with more certainity. Patronymics in Anglo-Saxonic language are often quite obvious, as is the case of Johnson (John-SON) and Harrison (Harry-SON). The Russians use the Vich, as in Andre-vich. The Ucranians use the witz, as in Horo-witz. The people from Scandinavia use Erik-SON. Italians use the "DI", as in D. Juan DI Marco, or the libertine Cha-cha DI Guiuseppe from the Grease movie. In every case, it means the act of possession from the father to the son. I recommend you to read as well the excellent wikipedia article on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic I hope this has helped to clarify this subject. Best regards, Paulo > Thanks, Ronnie French (decendent of Jose do Espirito Santo and Virginia > Augusta de Freitas Lopes). -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio