On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 2:50 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > >> OK I knew that was too much in one post ;-) - so I'm gonna break it down >> and start with the first one: >> >> You say "João Fernandes Lordelo m. Isabel Teixeira,, dau, of Tristão Vaz, >> the first Capitão-Mor. Had one dau and one son: Henrique Fernandes de >> Lordelo m. Guiomar escórcio, dau of João Drummond and Branca Afonso." >> >> Agreed - and the daughters name was Guiomar de Lordelo who married Joao de >> Freitas Correa >> > > I also have that one too, from several sources: HHN, Felisberto, Menses > Vaz, etc. > > >> >> amd continue.."There was also a Lopo de Lordelo, Knight, who married a N. >> Teixeira, according to Pereira de Agrela. This N. Teixeira was the sister of >> the 3d Captain." >> >> I show this Lopo as a brother to Joao Fernandes Lordelo - is that the same >> as what you show? >> > > Yes the same. But not all the genealogists refer him. Pereira d'Agrela > does. > > >> And are you also saying that he married a N. Teixeira who is the sister >> of Tristao TEIXEIRA who married Dona Grimaneza CABRAL. >> > > Those Teixeiras were many and each one had loads of children. To add to the > confusion different Teixeira brothers with different names would give the > same name to their children - and this is one of the big sources of > confusion lasting until today. > > >> If so, she is new to me. I have 4 children listed for Tristao VAZ TEIXEIRA >> (2nd capitao) and Dona Guiomar de LORDELO. >> They are Joao Lourenco de Teixeira, Guiterres Teixeira, Dona Violante >> Teixeira & of course Tristao Teixeira (the 3rd capitao),,,and now this N. >> Teixeira will make 5. >> > > I supopose that Pereira de Agrela is explicit. He insists that Beatriz de > Lordelo married to Martim Correia de Miranda is the "niece" of the 3d > Capºitão Mor de Machico. > > Clode also stresses the fact that the Correias de Mirandas were links, > first of all to the Teixeiras. > > > >> Any more I don't know about? >> > > I hope I'll give you more trouble, soon! ; -))) > > As I say genealogy is a fleeting or shifting reality, and the nobiliaries > are fine but riddled with some ("some"... to be mild) confusion. What can we > do when we have no other documents? Surf around the several nobiliaries and > books of History and check them against each other- Though in Madeira, apart > 2 or 3 that were original work most nobiliaries copied without investigation > what the other nob.said. > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto: >> [email protected]] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 22, 2009 8:20 PM >> *To:* [email protected]; [email protected] >> *Subject:* Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Link to Morgado da Bemposta >> >> Hello Cece, >> >> I got part of my data from Pereira de Agrela, Clode and Felisberto BM. >> >> About Beatriz de Lordelo and her connection to the Teixeiras: >> >> João Fernandes Lordelo m. Isabel Teixeira,, dau, of Tristão Vaz, the first >> Capitão-Mor. Had one dau and one son: Henrique Fernandes de Lordelo m. >> Guiomar escórcio, dau of João Drummond and Branca Afonso. >> There was also a Lopo de Lordelo, Knight, who married a N. Teixeira, >> according to Pereira de Agrela. This N. Teixeira was the sister of the 3d >> Captain. >> >> On other hand according to Clode, Tristão Teixeira, o das Damas, the 2nd >> Captain married D. Guiomar de Lordelo, probably a sister of his cunhado João >> Fernandes de Lordelo, and they had issue.. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> You lost me - it seems almost every one of the posts today have me >>> dancing >>> very closely to someone in my tree...but not quite touching ;-) >>> So allow me to start with your quote below " Beatriz de Lordelo, and this >>> same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira"... >>> Please show me this connection. >>> >>> And second regarding your quote "* António Fernandes das Covas,( son of >>> Paulo António or António Paulo, a Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had >>> slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married 2 nd time in that very same year >>> Maria >>> de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and >>> Maria >>> de Gayas" >>> I also have Antonio Fernandes das Covas and Maria de Velosa de >>> Vasconcelos. >>> But I show Maria to be the daughter of Irvao Teixiera and Dona Maria de >>> Velosa (this from Pelo Conego Meneses Vaz, Teixeiras de Tristao Vaz, >>> Familias da Madeira e Porto Santo,pg 149). >>> >>> >> According to HHN título Teixeiras we have a different story; >> >> § 14.º / >> >> >> >> N.º 4 – Manuel Teixeira de Vasconcellos, filho 2.º / de >> Antonio Teixei- ra, o Rei Pequeno, § 11.º, N.º 3.º / >> >> Casou com Anna de Vellosa, filha de Fran- / cisco de >> Vellosa, o velho, e de Catharina Vaz Tavares, / em titulo de Vellosas, >> § 2.º, N.º 2.º / >> >> >> >> De quem houve. / >> >> >> >> 5 – Francisco de Vellosa de Vasconcellos. / >> >> 5 – D. Constança de Mendônça, mulher de João / de Ornellas de Moura, >> filho de João de Or- / nellas, e de D. Cecilia de Moura, em titulo / de >> Ornellas, § ...., N.º...../ >> >> 5 – Francisco De Vellosa de Vasconcellos, filho 1.º de / Manuel >> Teixeira de Vasconcellos. / >> >> Casou com Maria de Gaias, Viuva de Agos- / tinho de Goes de >> Vas- concellos, seu primo, n’este / titulo, § 11.º, N.º 5.º, e filha de >> Braz Gonçal- / ves, e de Maria d’a Conceição. / >> >> >> >> De quem houve. / >> >> >> >> 6 – Francisco de Vellosa de Vasconcellos. / >> >> 6 – Uma filha casada com Antonio Fernandes / que foi morador n’o >> Faial, e fôrão paes de: / >> >> ANTÓNIO FERNANDES DAS COVAS,. MORADOR NO FAIAL. >> >> >> 7 – Uma filha, casada com Antonio Vaz / Leite, c. g. / >> >> >> >> >>> I was thinking about asking about this quote as well "This last >>> Francisco >>> de Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira >>> and >>> is well known.As well as the Lordelo name.I won't discuss here their >>> genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them"...but >>> decided this is probably too much for one posting ;-) >>> >> >> I'LL ANSWER THAT TOMORROW ; -))) >> >> >> MIGUEL de CH >> >> >> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >>> Henriques >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:06 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Link to Morgado da Bemposta >>> >>> As direct ancestors of my paternal gg.mother Eulália Rosa (Corrêa de >>> Miranda) I have (several generations before) in the beggining of the 17 >>> th >>> century (1610): >>> >>> Francisco Lopes Borralho m.(Faial, 1610) Catarina Corrêa, she daughter of >>> Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo and Antónia Jorge. This last Francisco de >>> Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira and >>> is >>> well known.As well as the Lordelo name. I won't discuss here their >>> genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them. >>> >>> Only recently I became aware that the Lopes Borralho name, quite unusual >>> in >>> that time (and even after) probably comes from João Lopes Franco (son of >>> Lopo Franco de Monção married Catarina Annes Escudeiro niece of João >>> Afonso >>> Escudeiro, the 1st Morgado da Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho. >>> >>> But I had a one generation gap. Then I found in Pereira de Agrela one >>> Diogo >>> Lopes Tavares, Morgado de São Lázaro ( son of João Lopes Franco, Morgado >>> da >>> Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho- dau. of Gomes da Ponte, son of Jordão >>> de >>> Ponte and Filipa Tavares, and another Jerónima Borralho. (This >>> FilipaTavares >>> is an important piece of the puzzle, it explains why the Morgados da >>> Bemposta used a coat of arms quartered with the Tavares' arms. She was >>> the >>> dau of Fernão Enes - I think he was called "O do bons vinhos. great!) and >>> Catarina Vaz Tavares, this last one dau of Vasco Esteves and Joana >>> Tavares.) >>> >>> Anyway That Diogo Lopes Tavares married (1580) Antónia de Abreu Escórcio- >>> (dau. of António Lopes Libraleão and Mecia de Abreu Escórcio, dau of João >>> Escórcio and Isabel Calaça- (the Libraleão possibly or maybe definetely >>> Jewish) (interesting detail, because of one of the godparents. See below. >>> * >>> >>> My feeling is that Diogo LT and Antónia AE. are the parents of my >>> Francisco >>> Lopes Borralho. The chronology fits, the names too, the social milieu >>> too. >>> >>> Catarina Correia the wife of Francisco Lopes Borralho was the g. dau, of >>> D. >>> Beatriz de Lordelo, and this same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira, >>> 3 d >>> Capitão-Mor de Machico. >>> >>> The witness or quite possibly godparents of the marriage document (quite >>> damaged, can't read it clearly in some parts) of Francisco Lopes Borralho >>> and Catarina Corrêa, were Jordão de Freitas m. Beatriz Spínola. Jordão >>> had a >>> Lordelo as ancestor. >>> And the other witness is the famous >>> >>> * António Fernandes das Covas,( son of Paulo António or António Paulo, a >>> Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married >>> 2 >>> nd time in that very same year Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of >>> Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and Maria de Gayas- These Gayas, though >>> noble, were most probably of Jewish origin too. This Francisco Velosa de >>> Vasconcelos was also descendant of Catarina Vaz Tavares, thus Maria >>> Velosa >>> the wife of António Fernandes das Covas (the godfather) was a relative >>> of >>> the groom. And also a descendant of the Teixeiras, thus a relative of the >>> bride as well. >>> >>> So I think this is it. I guess that all this makes sense. The social >>> milieu, >>> the Jewish connection, the adjustment of the names. As a matter of fact >>> the >>> Borralho name is very very rare. Only 7 Borralhos appear in the ARM >>> database, and they seem to be all related - and linked to Jerónima >>> Borralho, >>> m. (1535 more or less) to João Lopes Franco Escudeiro, the Morgado da >>> Bemposta. >>> >>> What do you think? >>> >>> Probably some more people in here have Corrêas or Correias de Miranda and >>> possibly they'll have a link to these people too. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> Miguel de CH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this >>> incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release Date: >>> 12/22/09 >>> 08:09:00 >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release Date: >> 12/22/09 18:22:00 >> > >